USA health system... umm... what the hell?!

[SamuelT]

snip

See, what makes this even sadder, is that the vast majority of the whole world's money is literally in the U.S.

[...]

You're talking about the debts here, right?

Money, in itself, is debt.

Great. Good to have that out of the picture.

Now I'd like to know what he meant. No offense.

 

[orangeban]

Well, I'll play by ear and I'll listen to Britain (though I'll ignore the Torys right now) Canada, Sweden ect.

Here's the thing, the "good" caused by socialized medicine (in theory of course) is health care for all, which is not currently available in America. The "harm" you keep mentioning is mainly tax increase which does not necesarrily hurt the economy (in fact, I think that taxes are way too low but we don't need that debate...)

And I understand how the economy is all those things, but why not list next to "keeps us fed, keeps roofs over our heads," keep us from dying of illness? Seems like a logical inclusion to me.

In a way, it does already. But the situations could be better already.

Though, I do have to ask, why only listen to Switzerland and Canada and stuff? The U.S. has some really good hospitals and medical care as well.

I just don't think we need to harm the economy, cause even more layoffs and problems for socialized medicine when there are much less harmful alternatives out there.

Well, I said Sweden and Canada because they have free health care and are doing alright for themselves, though I agree that it'd take America a long long time to move across the political spectrum to where they sit. (though I hear worrying stuff of right-wing governments gaining popularity over there.) And yeah, I agree that America probably has very good hospitals, can't say so from personal experience but I'm sure they do, it's the USA, a leading economy and superpower, of course it's pretty good. Maybe the real answer with socialized health care is to wait until a sunny day economically for this debate, because it's a huge pain to discuss adding new stuff when people are making cuts.

 

[orangeban]

In response to a fair amount of the posts: (a vocal minority)

I am getting so tired of some in this forum having a free-for-all attitude against all Americans. No, we are not all uneducated, gun-toting, racist hicks. Just like those in the rest of the English-speaking world are certainly not all fully self-actualized and supremely enlightened saints.

The scapegoat you are looking for is not "Americans." Health care, health insurance, government entitlements, taxes, economics, etc, are all extremely complex issues, yet, this board has free reign to approach this issue as a fast and loose attack on all things American. Nothing's simple, and no argument can be settled by pure conjecture and finger-pointing, unless of course the solution is to point the finger at me and everyone like me who had the misfortune of being born in this horrible hell-hole of tyranny known as the USA.

This kind of stereotyping and prejudice creates resentment and breeds contempt. The board moderators have deadly efficiency when it comes to most forms of posting foolishness, but I wonder when spewing hateful, prejudiced comments at an entire society is going to be considered too vitriolic to get away with.

But America bashing is a national British past-time
I mean, if we don't bash you then who? The French? Cause there's only so many frog jokes you can make...

Seriously though I agree, and I try to talk about the American government when discussing stuff like this, unfortunately I don't really know enough about American government to go into much more detail.

 

[spartandude]

In Britain we would riot and even likely make an attempt to kick out the government in they privertised the NHS
In America they would riot and likely make an attempt to kick out the government if Healthcare was owned by the state and everyone could get it

the NHS isnt perfect and needs to be reformed a bit (not the reforms the tories are proposing, god no!) but something to make it much better, ala canada. however we all get health care and it just comes out of our taxes which we all pay sp it costs next to nothing.

I'm not sure if anyone here knows but i have depression (pretty bad. if i hadnt gotten help in all honesty i might not be here) and i went to the doctors for help, they had to diagnose me and then put me on a simple tablet which has done wonders for me. if i was in the US that would have cost me money i simply dont have , something as simple as that in Britain saved my life, in America it wouldmt have happened and i would be dead

and to the people who defend the insurance companies and the current US (so called) healthcare. how can you think its justified to charge Alison so much just so she would be able to have use of her arm, please explain this to me

 

[orangeban]

Well, I'll play by ear and I'll listen to Britain (though I'll ignore the Torys right now) Canada, Sweden ect.

Here's the thing, the "good" caused by socialized medicine (in theory of course) is health care for all, which is not currently available in America. The "harm" you keep mentioning is mainly tax increase which does not necesarrily hurt the economy (in fact, I think that taxes are way too low but we don't need that debate...)

And I understand how the economy is all those things, but why not list next to "keeps us fed, keeps roofs over our heads," keep us from dying of illness? Seems like a logical inclusion to me.

In a way, it does already. But the situations could be better already.

Though, I do have to ask, why only listen to Switzerland and Canada and stuff? The U.S. has some really good hospitals and medical care as well.

I just don't think we need to harm the economy, cause even more layoffs and problems for socialized medicine when there are much less harmful alternatives out there.

Well, I said Sweden and Canada because they have free health care and are doing alright for themselves, though I agree that it'd take America a long long time to move across the political spectrum to where they sit. (though I hear worrying stuff of right-wing governments gaining popularity over there.) And yeah, I agree that America probably has very good hospitals, can't say so from personal experience but I'm sure they do, it's the USA, a leading economy and superpower, of course it's pretty good. Maybe the real answer with socialized health care is to wait until a sunny day economically for this debate, because it's a huge pain to discuss adding new stuff when people are making cuts.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense actually. I am not certain why I didn't think of just making a slow changover, but if more and more elements get introduced over time then it might iron out some of the potential problems that may arise.

Thanks.

Isn't it lovely when people can meet at a happy compromise?

 

[Dragonsoulq]

All I'll say is this, I'm kinda happy with the American System, it lets me stop and think whenever I complain about my(Ireland) healthcare system-At least its better than their's

 

[ecoho]

You don't feel so bad paying 2x's the price for games now, do ya?

Whenever people bring it up, Insurance lobbyists cry that it will cause people to wait years for their major surgeries, people won't be able to choose their own doctors, and it will cause our best doctors to flee the country. People actually believe them too.

Fear Tactics FTW.

it kinda helps when they are right. Free health care is just a bad idea in US. why? we have too many people over a much larger land mass. Now what they need to do is get affordable insurance out there that people who dont have alot of money can afford that way we dont go bankrupt we dont lose our doctors oh and we wont have to wait for our surgeries.

 

[viking97]

It's pretty sad that a lot of the American stereotype is true.

PS:I live in the USA.

seconded. i've seen people go into hysterics when i suggest that FUCKING FREE MEDICINE might be a good thing.

 

[LuckyClover95]

I completely agree. But the U.S. is so much more right wing in contrast to us (I live in Britain, but I think Britain and Australia have a lot of similar ideas. Plus we share the Queen.) Like the "left wing" party in the U.S. is, at most, in the middle of our political spectrum if not right wing. To me, living in England, health care seems so basic and I take it for granted that, whatever happens, I will receive necessary treatment. The NHS isn't perfect, it's understaffed and often exploited, but it's moderately satisfactory and compared to most other countries brilliant. I agree with you when you say it seems so backwards for a country that considers itself to be a sort of pinnacle of civilization and the modern, developed world to still be paying for healthcare.

 

[Ken Sapp]

A couple of short replies:

There are ways for her to get the care needed beyond her insurance. There are charities that help people in her position as well as the option of getting the surgery and taking out a loan in order to pay for it. There is even asking fans and the public in general for aid which apparently worked quite well. No system is perfect, but I prefer the current system to having the government run things.


As far as life-saving critical care... The law here states that life-saving critical care such as your horror story example of a car accident victim can not be denied. The hospital will perform whatever acts are necessary and figure out how it will be recompensed afterward. In the case that the person is absolutely unable to pay for it the hospital has to accept whatever the state pays it and write off the rest. Laws regulating who has to be provided care are part of the reason health costs are so high and hospitals are going bankrupt in some areas of the country as illegal aliens will go to a hospital to have a baby delivered and disappear afterward leaving the hospital no way to collect for its services.

Again, regardless of which system is in place there will be problems. But I can look at what takes place in other countries where government runs the healthcare system as well as the experience I have had with government healthcare here in the US (already exists for military in the form of TRICARE) and come to the conclusion that I prefer the shortcomings of the current system to having the government run everything.

 

[AquaAscension]

The healthcare system in the united states is Bull. Shit. Period.

Health care is a business.

Socrates once said (or perhaps Plato) that if you wanted to have a chariot built, you'd go to a chariot maker. If you wanted to get a bone fixed, you'd go to a doctor etc. The point being that these people/practices exist to fill a need in society.

Now we're back to health care is a business.

Health care, being a business as it is, does not exist to fix people. It exists to make money. That's why businesses exist. Insurance companies don't give a shit about people and making them healthy. They care about their bottom line and making it healthy. This is why they have people (seriously, wish I was kidding but fuck I'm not) who scour patient claims for reasons to deny coverage through loop holes or their own jargon'd contracts/health plans. It's bullshit, plain and simple. It's existence for the wrong reason. It's damaging and destructive. And the people behind it don't give a shit. They have money to act as a salve for their wounds.

In closing, someone asked me once (as a diabetic from age 10 - healthy btw and looking to stay that way but finding insurance for the cost is... difficult) how I thought insurance company execs sleep at night.
My response: Quite heavenly, I imagine. *sullen pause*
They probably lie their heads on pillows stuffed with angel-soft down clipped from the wings of patients they've slain, whose familes had to watch as their bodies swung suspended with loopholes around their necks like nooses.

So, you think every industry that makes money is poorly ran and the government should do it? I mean, obviously, anything ran by the government is done well.

Think about this. Canada and the US have very similar economies except socialized healthcare. Canada flips the bill for 70% of it's healthcare, the US 50% (elderly people in the US do have government health care). Canada spends 5% more of their GPD than the US. 5% of their GDP for 20% more spending on health care. On top of that, I have worked with Canadians for years (in Detroit, which attracts many people from Windsor). All of them would rather go to a US hospital or see a US doctor.

Privatization is not a bad thing. There simply needs to be some more regulation and coverage for people on the lower end of the scale. Overall the health care for the insured in the US is some of the best in the world, and innovation is pretty much second to none. There does need to be issues cleared up on the low end, and pre existing conditions/denial of coverage needs to be eliminated. Yet the idea that companies out to make money is a bad thing is a horrible, horrible idea proven to be inefficient. Honestly, since this is a video game site, how well to you think your government would do in making video games? Privatized health care drives a ton of innovation. 6 of the top 12 (including the top 2) pharmaceutical companies are American. Even pharmaceutical companies outside of the US are driven by competition in the US market. Without the US healthcare market, many of the innovations you know and benefit from would never exist. A substantial amount of the top specialized hospitals in the world are in the US. There are some great things about privatized business, including innovation and streamlined businesses.

Just match up a business ran by any government where they have to compete vs. the private sector. They always lose unless heavily propped up by tax money giving them a competitive advantage.

Capitalism is not a bad thing, even in health care. There simply needs to be some checks added in so there is care for all. The problem we are facing in the US is determining that care, and who pays for it. Yes, the current system is broken, yet full scale socialist medicine funded by the government is not the answer.

Technically, I said that a business is in it to make money and that this is wrong if it's making the money at the expense of the people it's supposed to serve.

This, in my humble opinion, is wrong if that same business claims to be about helping people stay healthy yet uses a portion of their profit to hire people to make sure they pay out as few claims as possible. You know, claims that would help people get the attention they need to get better; i.e. stay healthy.

Is every single health insurer bad? No. Of course not. Unfortunately, and as you pointed out yourself, every single health insurer currently is working in a system in which there is very, very little oversight and there ought to be some restrictions imposed, otherwise it's too easy to take the easy way out - to search for creative ways to make money at the cost of coverage/care.

Somewhere along the lines in business, the point gets lost if it's all about the bottom line and profits. It's okay to make money but not if that money comes at the expense of those who are paying.

Damn, I've been thinking a lot, and yeah, I do have to think that capitalism in its farthest application is bad. Terrible. If it's only about money, only about capital, then fuck that. If there was some social aspect to capitalism such that the goal was to find a way to make money while at the same time providing the best care possible (thereby making an incredibly efficient system), then I'd be all for it. But capitalism in its current state cannot survive because money doesn't live. Money isn't alive. People are alive. But perhaps it is peoples' misguided drive for capital which makes capitalism bad. This post is quickly getting tangential and rather rambly (not a word, I know), so I'll end it by saying that some companies seem to forget that they oughtn't exist for the bottom line. They ought to exist to bring people what they need in an efficient way. But some are taking the easy way out and finding ways to screw people over for money.

Have you any thoughts on this rambling, tangential mess?

 

[SFMB]

I thought that US citizens got better from their ailments by hiding behing chest-high-walls.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

A liberal in Australia is no the same as we think of a liberal in the US.

You're confusing Australia's Liberal Party with liberal politics. The only thing liberal about the Liberal Party is their name. They're dyed in the wool conservatives.

 

[Doc Theta Sigma]

As I recall Sarah Palin referred to the NHS here (UK) as "draconian" with "death committees" at some point. What does this show? That the USA is so very clearly misinformed about how universal health care works and they are misinformed because of corrupt and greedy officials using scare tactics and misinformation labelled as fact.

I have been in hospital twice in my life. Once to have my tonsils removed when I was nine which turned into a three week stay due to almost dying due to me having a bad reaction to anaesthetic and once more when I was 14 for problems with my liver. Both times I received brilliant treatment. I never once stood in front of a "death committee" who were decide whether I lived or died.

 

[deadxero]

We don't actually have a health system. We have a health services industry. While they sound similar, don't be confused. On involves taking care of people. The other involves extorting second mortgages out of people who have no choice but to pay for your service.

Edit: and it isn't likely to change. The medical industry in the US throws so much money at the government there's little we as citizens can do about it.

 

[Chevy235]

It's pretty sad that a lot of the American stereotype is true.

PS:I live in the USA.

seconded. i've seen people go into hysterics when i suggest that FUCKING FREE MEDICINE might be a good thing.

Because it isn't free. Someone always pays. Just because it's not you doesn't mean a damn thing. The crux of your argument is that someone else, somewhere else, is obligated to work, to spend hours of his life to make yours better in some way. While you think that may be true, it's very hard to convince many people that the government, through threat of imprisonment, has a moral obligation to steal from others for your benefit...and that would be in a system with 100% efficiency, which government absolutely does not have.

I'm not up on the story, but why Allison did not avail herself of a payment plan (which I have always been offered) puzzles me. Hospitals are not soulless entities, they are composed of people with hearts and minds of their own, and I have never seen a case where when someone needs an operation they have not worked to make that happen.

I am not saying everything is perfect; far from it. There is much wrong with the system, but from what I'm able to tell, it has more to do with government intervention in the market. Por ejemplo, consider this: Our two most screwed up private institutions, banking and healthcare, are the two most heavily regulated industries in the nation. What's one of the least? Electronics. Tell me where you get the best service, and the most bang for your buck. Tell me. The evidence is right there.

There are some in this thread even ludicrous enough to poke fun at a healthy distaste for Communism. I can only assume they never lived under a Communist system - at any rate it's an indication of how poor the education system has gotten...yet another government project being increasingly centralized since the establishment of the Department of Education in 1979.

One more thought:

Since, of course, this thread somehow takes one incident and then extrapolates it as proof that TEH AMURIKUNS IZ STUPIDZ, I'm going to do the exact same thing, except about socialized medicine. Here we go:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/04/injured-man-dies-in-japan_n_163851.html

O! Cruel and heartless....GOVERNMENT FREE HEALTHCARE

Here's another from the much vaunted NHS

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/the-nhs-pretty-much-signed-my-death-warrant-1771866.html

Vile fatcat...uh...BUREAUCRATS.

So, in summation, using the very same style of "logic" presented here in this thread by the OP and his supporters, these two stories prove indubitably that your socialized healthcare is muthaf**kin' stupid, and privatization is obivously the way to go, and you guys haven't done it already because you're extremely gullible Euros that have been blinded by government propaganda that DERP DERP EVIL CORPORASHNS AND NAZIS AND 'MURRICANZ IZ STEALINZ OUR ORGANZ DERP DURRR.

P.S. One more thought. A possible moral of the story is that private charity works. Private charity is the single most beautiful expression of the power of the individual to effect positive change in the world, without coercion, without the gun. And good-hearted Escapists who came through for a complete stranger, they did it without being forced to having their wages garnished or threatened with an audit and imprisonment. They should remember that what they did is truly good, with absolutely no, and I mean no, negative side.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

The Australian system is kind of odd... If your annual earnings are over a set amount and you don't have private insurance you have to pay a tax penalty. This was, in theory, to relieve stress on the public sector.

Of course, the private sectorisn't above dirty tricks of it's own... such as building private hospitals without emergency medical facilities (avoiding having to take in those annoying poor people who require emergency care), having patients treated at public facilities and every other sort of cost cutting measure they can think up that uses the public sector instead of their own resources.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

It is rather funny that all liberals think that any point of conservatism must have come from the brain washing company called "Fox." I care about the next person as much as everyone else, but I work hard to provide to myself. Are you too lazy to provide for yourself?

I have a fun story for you. Out of some sad coincidence my father and my uncle both got cancer last year. Both had cancer of the tongue. My family is not very rich. My father works with the local counsel to assist the disabled in the community. It doesnt pay very well. Ive never questioned this, im proud my father (a Cambridge university graduate with a good degree - yes Cambridge number freaking one university on the planet) chose to do something humanitarian rather than high pay but low help to society. Dont you dare call him lazy for not having a lot of money ok? He sacrificed a lot to do a job many didn't want to do, to help people. Because that's the kind of person he is. Thats number one.

My uncle works as a teacher in the US, teaching highschoolers. They also dont have a lot of money, having two kids and not starting in the best financial situation.

My father had 3 lots of surgery and radiotherapy and is now on the road to recovery. This was for free.

My uncle still has yet to be treated. His insurance covered - scanning and treatment but for some reason not diagnosis. Or something like that, a key part of the system was not covered. He can barely afford it and its still taking a long time.

I think both men are not too lazy to provide for themselves. Both do a good job helping society. They just found it hard to afford medical bills. At least one did. My father would not have been able to afford them. Thank god he didnt have to. He still works with the disabled. And with the rest of the counsel to actually try and make my county a little less shitty.

Cancer is expensive. And it doesnt give a fuck if you are rich or poor. It takes multiple treatments and spreads, and its a complete ***** if it ya know, KILLS YOU.

I'm not a big fan of the idea of universal healthcare.

Simply put, I have a relative who already works upwards of 9 months out of the year for the government. (In the sense of that's how long it takes him to earn the money to pay his taxes) That seems a bit nuts to me.

Also, I don't like the idea of forcing people to pay into a system they may never use.

Then again, when my father went through kemo the insurence guys paid for everything. So I guess I am one of the lucky ones.

Id pay for someone i dont know not to die, its a tax increase, it might save a life. Thats worth it in my book. I couldnt care less about some stupid piece of paper when someone might die. Id also like to take the chance i might need to use the healthcare system at one point. I mean its more likely than not you are gonna need some serious medical help at LEAST once in your life right? You pay into a system and everyone (EVERYONE) benefits. Find me ONE British man who has NEVER -

Worn glasses
Needed a brace
Needed medication on prescription
Needed to be rushed to A/E
Developed a condition that needed a doctor to diagnose

And i will give you ONE BILLION pounds

 

[bootz]

Firemen would have to ask people to provide insurance documents whilst they're house is burning down.

In the US, they do... Look up 'emergency services coverage' and be amazed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/04/firefighters-watch-as-hom_n_750272.html

so there proff you have to pay firefighters or they will stand and watch your house burn down.

 

[Doc Theta Sigma]

As I recall Sarah Palin referred to the NHS here (UK) as "draconian" with "death committees" at some point. What does this show? That the USA is so very clearly misinformed about how universal health care works and they are misinformed because of corrupt and greedy officials using scare tactics and misinformation labelled as fact.

I have been in hospital twice in my life. Once to have my tonsils removed when I was nine which turned into a three week stay due to almost dying due to me having a bad reaction to anaesthetic and once more when I was 14 for problems with my liver. Both times I received brilliant treatment. I never once stood in front of a "death committee" who were decide whether I lived or died.

Judging Americans by Sarah Palin would be like judging Canadians by Steven Harper.

True... My point was more that it's people like her that try to grossly misinform the American public either intentionally or through ignorance.