Used Game Sales are a "Bigger Problem Than Piracy"
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
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Movies, music & books all survive with thriving second-hand markets. Game devs/publishers just have to live with it &, rather than ***** & moan about how bad people are for trading in second hand games, do like EA & give non-penalizing incentives to buy new.
I don't mean to be rude, but I can't even really consider this article news.Andy Chalk said:
I mean, if they were talking about PC games I would be shocked, but come on, how much pirating happens on consoles? Certainly not enough to be anywhere NEAR the hit Devs take from used game sales.
Basically, if this was about PC games, it would be shocking, but since it's about console games, it's more of a "Ducks like water" or "shooting yourself in the face could be harmful" type of thing, it's so obvious that nobody bothered to mention it.
I'm sure this has been said buuuttt....
Anti-piracy, drm, etc. is really anti-second hand game sales. Fuck you, I bought it, I'll re-sell it. As since you fools (industry penny pinchers) refuse to admit your crap, I'm still happy as a clam to be a ******.
Anti-piracy, drm, etc. is really anti-second hand game sales. Fuck you, I bought it, I'll re-sell it. As since you fools (industry penny pinchers) refuse to admit your crap, I'm still happy as a clam to be a ******.
Second hand games have become such an integrated part of the consumer market that it'll never change. People will continue to trade games, even if shops abide by some sort of agreement with the corporations and refuse to stock used games, people will trade privately and independently. Frankly, the shops need the custom from second hand game sales to keep their businesses afloat. Not everyone has £40 to blow on a game every time and even if ten people buy a £10 game each who would have previously bought nothing due to expense, that's another £100 in the kitty for the store.
The only way people can be convinced to buy new games is if corporations lower the prices earlier in order to keep up with the market. For example, they could say that after a fortnight, the price of a new game *must* drop by £10 or so, then after a month, by another £5, and that becomes the fixed price. The fanboys and impatient folk will pay the early expensive cost while the ones who can't afford it will be able to wait and buy it later. Alternatively, the DLC idea implemented by games like Bad Company 2 and Mass Effect 2 are a very clever, if sneaky, method of incentive. And that's the key point. It's incentive, not consequence. That's what speaks to players.
The only way people can be convinced to buy new games is if corporations lower the prices earlier in order to keep up with the market. For example, they could say that after a fortnight, the price of a new game *must* drop by £10 or so, then after a month, by another £5, and that becomes the fixed price. The fanboys and impatient folk will pay the early expensive cost while the ones who can't afford it will be able to wait and buy it later. Alternatively, the DLC idea implemented by games like Bad Company 2 and Mass Effect 2 are a very clever, if sneaky, method of incentive. And that's the key point. It's incentive, not consequence. That's what speaks to players.
Here's the problem. Games aren't like other goods.
Provided the disk hasn't been damaged, a used game doesn't differ from a new one.
Furniture and clothing come with the knowledge that someone else has sat on or worn them and so their second hand value drops and people have a reason to buy it new. With games, there is no incentive to buy new (until recent projects by companies like EA) because the used game will often play every bit as well as the new one, and if it doesn't they come with a warranty.
I love how the people complain about how expensive new games are, but then praise the companies that offer a 2-5 dollar discount for one that's used, often after offering the original owner a quarter of the price for trading it in.
Provided the disk hasn't been damaged, a used game doesn't differ from a new one.
Furniture and clothing come with the knowledge that someone else has sat on or worn them and so their second hand value drops and people have a reason to buy it new. With games, there is no incentive to buy new (until recent projects by companies like EA) because the used game will often play every bit as well as the new one, and if it doesn't they come with a warranty.
I love how the people complain about how expensive new games are, but then praise the companies that offer a 2-5 dollar discount for one that's used, often after offering the original owner a quarter of the price for trading it in.
Gah! I don't understand the hate... Its a BUSINESS people. Welcome to Capitalism! If the only way for new, cool, bad ass games to be produced is by allowing these producers to earn money; well, then I'm sure you can figure the rest out.
EA has managed to figure a good deal with the incentive program, I.E. VIP code in BF:BC2. Allowing VIP's to download future DLCs. That in mind was my deciding factor in buying new over used.
This is all excluding the principle factors of linear, non-multiplayer, games; which seem destined for the used market.
End story: It's a business making games, they want to make money. Therefore, the only way were ever gonna get new, solid games is to..
*drum roll*
BUY new games...
...or else start playing freeware.
EA has managed to figure a good deal with the incentive program, I.E. VIP code in BF:BC2. Allowing VIP's to download future DLCs. That in mind was my deciding factor in buying new over used.
This is all excluding the principle factors of linear, non-multiplayer, games; which seem destined for the used market.
End story: It's a business making games, they want to make money. Therefore, the only way were ever gonna get new, solid games is to..
*drum roll*
BUY new games...
...or else start playing freeware.
Most people only really trade in games they dislike or tire of. If a game is genuinely good then most players will hold on to it. Honestly, if car manufacturers can deal with re-sale then so can these companies, you never buy a used car and then have to pay an activation fee to the manufacturers.
I buy games I want to play new, when they come out. But when I go to EB games to kill some time between appointments or whatever I will browse the used game section and pick up a game that is a year or two old. It is not stealing revenue as I never would have bought the game but for the used game section. I wager that for folks like me, and I may not be the typical case, it raises revenue because if I like the game I will start looking for the sequel or into the developer's other titles.
Okay, here's the central problem for your argument. An average hollywood blockbuster, these days, starts at around $100m to produce.[footnote]Independent are substantially less, but let's ignore that for the moment.[/footnote] Major release Video games cost substantially less to produce, figure $40m.[footnote]These are both low estimates. Movies can easily hit $200m and games can hit the $100m mark.[/footnote] On top of this films can easily burn another $20m in advertising.[footnote]Sometimes this is included in the overall film budget, but often it ends up as an additional expense from the studio after the film has been produced.[/footnote]rockingnic said:
Now. Assume the average cost of a ticket is about $10. Assume that the average DVD on release is about $20. And realize that films make more money than the video game industry.
They don't do this because they have found some magical way to compress costs, they do it by putting more asses in the seats.
Now, you can argue about install base, but really that's a losing argument, because there wouldn't BE a used games market if the install base couldn't support it.
Make games less expensive and more share friendly and then also try to encourage people to go outside more. Let's make gaming more casual and less time intensive so that we can get out and be more outdoorsy types...
Won't the smart trade in places just mark any games doing something like 'project $10' and offer $10 less for them in trade in and make them $10 cheaper?
Ok EA still get their slice of the cake, but it's not going to stop preowned sales.
This all comes from neither sides agreeing on one point, customers feel they've bought something, and it's theirs to do what they want with, whereas the games companies feel like we pay a fee to borrow it for a while, but it's still their property.
I know legally, the games company's view is correct, but it's a pretty crappy way to view your customers.
Maybe in the future the car companies will latch onto this, build a retina scanner into the cars so that only the original owner can start the car, and of course this won't be to stop the second hand market in cars, it'll be a 'security feature'. (*cough* DRM *cough*)
Ok EA still get their slice of the cake, but it's not going to stop preowned sales.
This all comes from neither sides agreeing on one point, customers feel they've bought something, and it's theirs to do what they want with, whereas the games companies feel like we pay a fee to borrow it for a while, but it's still their property.
I know legally, the games company's view is correct, but it's a pretty crappy way to view your customers.
Maybe in the future the car companies will latch onto this, build a retina scanner into the cars so that only the original owner can start the car, and of course this won't be to stop the second hand market in cars, it'll be a 'security feature'. (*cough* DRM *cough*)
It's the developers and producers faults that people buy used games. Lower your prices quicker and we will buy the game. You can't do that? Then use Steam or some other form of online distribution. What's even better is...
There's someone with sense.Hithlain said:
Yes, it must be awful to have people who can't afford a brand new version every time they want something, and when that second hand version has obvious production flaws they shouldn't have a right to complain because they didn't support the developers. "Sorry Jane, Honda isn't responsible for your injuries even though all cars of this model had broken brakes. If you had bought directly from us we might have had the money to pay for your wounds and make better brakes. Next time don't buy second hand you dastardly fiend!"rockingnic said:
In musing about how we as a society should look to how profit is derived from distribution and not distribution,copies,ect itself. Its the flow of distribution where a profit is attempted that should be locked down and be made into licensed only, if it is not licensed then it can not generate money.
This dose not jsut mean websites that take donations or ad rev this also means the sale of used media as its no different IMO(something copyrighted is moved for money).
Of coarse the most the CP owners should get is 5-10% off the sale, and frankly we could use a simple net/digital storage tax as well so put that 5-10% on ISPs and digital storage devices and discs.
It would not be to hard for publishers to ban togather offer insentives and insted of making this part of it law that might fail aginst doctrine of frist sale make it supplemental to the the tax and something retialers of all sizes can ge onbaord with to save money on new items to give alil profit off thier used item sale.
This dose not jsut mean websites that take donations or ad rev this also means the sale of used media as its no different IMO(something copyrighted is moved for money).
Of coarse the most the CP owners should get is 5-10% off the sale, and frankly we could use a simple net/digital storage tax as well so put that 5-10% on ISPs and digital storage devices and discs.
It would not be to hard for publishers to ban togather offer insentives and insted of making this part of it law that might fail aginst doctrine of frist sale make it supplemental to the the tax and something retialers of all sizes can ge onbaord with to save money on new items to give alil profit off thier used item sale.
See, the problem I have with your mindset is that you think that somehow once i've brought a game, that I can't do what I want with it. I've paid the price it was sold to me at in full. If I want to trade it in, I will. Its MY game.rockingnic said:
Heck, I even sell my games to my friends on occasion. I don't want a game and my friend does? Because GAME will only give me £5 and sell it for £20, i'll do my friend a favour and sell it at £15.
I can do that with any car I buy, any house I buy, and any furniture I buy. If i'm not allowed to do what I want with my property (as long as it doesn't physically harm another person or break any laws) I believe that I should be allowed to do what I like with it.
If you came up to me and told me I couldn't do that, i'd just punch you in the throat and tell you to mind your own business. Same thing i'd do to any company representative who thinks the same.
This is a column, they write about interesting stuff, not news.danpascooch said:
That wasn't the employee being a dick, that was you being a dick.rembrandtqeinstein said:
Yeah, that's the figures...but like a lot of statistics, I've never seen any evidence. In fact, quite a lot to the contrary.Starke said:
For instance, if I buy GTA - break the disc accidentally, d/l a crack and buy it second hand - then these numbers allege 66% profit loss.
umkay seriously WTF? does big industry always try to find an excuse for making more money when they probably are making enough?