Used Game Sales "Killing" Single Player Titles

[Guardian of Nekops]

I'll say what I said last time about this.

The problem isn't with the customers for wanting to buy games for cheaper. It isn't with the retail stores for taking the opportunity to make some extra money. The problem is 100% with the developers and publishers for making games that people don't want to keep. If you want to stop your game from being destroyed by used game sales, here's an idea - why don't you make a game that people don't WANT to trade in en masse the day after they buy it?

Absolutely agreed. The games that I love (and it's not like that's hard to do, I'm not terribly picky) I keep. I have something in the neighborhood of 80 new console games here, which are not going to be resold, ever, because they have replay value.

The good thing about this solution is that it takes care of even those used games that make it onto the market... as soon as somebody loves it and wants to keep it, regardless of whether that copy is new or not it stays off the market. Every satisfied customer gets you your money, free and clear, which is how it should be.

Given the fact that game companies don't take returns for games that are not enjoyed, they just need to deal with the fact that people are going to resell those games, depriving the publisher of new sales if that's how you want to look at it. The consumer should, and does, have some recourse if they buy a game that they don't enjoy, or if they pay $60 for a game that only takes them a few hours to complete. Wanting a slice of the business that's generated when someone doesn't like your game and wants some portion of their money back just seems... backwards, it really does.

If someone buys your game for 60 dollars, plays it, and is then willing to let go of it for 10 bucks or less? Let's face it. You failed to reach that individual customer. You failed to convince them that the game is worth more than 10 dollars to them, let alone what they paid for it. Sure, you could say that a game that's resold 15 times has been enjoyed by those 15 people without you getting your share, but I believe it's just as valid to say that the game was NOT enjoyed by those 15 people... not enough that they wanted to keep it, anyway.

The percentage of your games that are available to be resold should be low enough for you to absorb easily, assuming that you spend as much effort on making your customer enjoy and value the game as you do in convincing them to buy it in the first place. If that's not how you run your company, and you still expect your customers to be loyal enough to hang on to games they don't like? Well then, I won't be crying for you.

 

[Amaror]

Yeah, right, because Publisher's just want to survive and don't want to make money or somethink like that.

 

[Weaver]

I'm lucky enough I make enough money to buy games new whenever I want, and I never sell them (I just like having things I guess?). But for some of the younger folks, I bet you the only way they CAN afford to get news games is with entirely lopsided trade-in offers.

 

[Guardian of Nekops]

These guys should just shut up already. Sales of games are going digital with no resale option rapidly, in 10 years these guys won't have this to cry about anymore.

*Also, when did these advertising capta's come back? Screw those. You are money grubbing just as bad as EA, Escapist.

Really?

Really?

Streaming content for free every day, keeping up these forums, and running this area YOU ARE POSTING IN NOW...

And inconveniences you by maybe 10 seconds... is as awful as EA...

"entitled" isn't quite strong enough here...

It has nothing to do with being entitled. I don't mind viewing ads to help keep this place in business. This is a two way street, they need to provide good content and a good user experience to attract and keep viewers, the more viewers they have the more their ad spots are worth.

I am a member of several other forums and when I sign in to those forums I don't have to mess around with any kind of captcha system. There is no reason since I can be warned or banned for bad behavior and spamming. Its one thing to passively consume ads next to my content but when they are interrupting my user experience and forcing me to type some marketing slogan to post my message that makes me less likely to use their services and they themselves have stated that making the site "sticky" is a big goal for them. Captchas when I already have an account and am signed in, especially these ad captchas, make the site less sticky for me, I think they would like to know that so they can best meet their goals.

Take a broader perspective before you get your big boy shorts so twisted next time.

Not that this is on topic, but I do feel I should add one point here:

The captchas have been around for a while. Obviously, the Escapist decided they needed captchas to stop spammers, right or wrong, that was the motivation. Frankly, I'm happy with the new ones as opposed to the old, as I find them easier to read.

The decision to use the captchas as ad space came later, which means they are not forcing you through another round of annoyance to make money. Instead, they are deciding to make money off of an annoyance they decided they had to put you through anyway to stop spammers, which I find puts things in a much more positive light.

After all, if I'm going to be typing things in anyway, I prefer making the Escapist a few extra cents to having to squint to figure out what I'm reading.

 

[lacktheknack]

Movies still come on DVD/BluRay and Music still comes on CDs - so saying that Video Games being sold for 3 times the price of a movie and 6 times the price of a music CD aren't profitable is absurd.

Uh... compare the budgets of movies/music to video games. Notice that video games have hilariously larger budgets.

Also compare the audiences of movies/music to video games. Notice that the audience of video games is immensely smaller.

Compare the budgets of Movies and Video Games..okay, big movie budgets are between 1.5 and 3 times the cost to create.

http://digitalbattle.com/2010/02/20/top-10-most-expensive-video-games-budgets-ever/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_films

You are correct that movie audiences are larger than video game audiences though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_game_franchises
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films

Significantly larger audiences (six to twenty times the audiences, it appears). So if we extrapolate...

p = price of a movie
a = audience of a movie
c = Cost to make a movie

Movies: ap - c = PROFIT

Video games: ~1/10(a) * 3(p) - ~1/2(c) = PROFIT

That's being generous, seeing how in a worst case scenario it could be ~1/20(a). Now, let's select our random megahit movie.

Selecting a random handful of modern movies from your highest-grossing-films list gives me an approximate budget of $175,000,000. I'd further estimate that about 75,000,000 people saw it in theaters, and a further 10,000,000 bought a physical copy later on. Great. Lastly, assume that p = ~$15.

PROFIT for megahit movie: 85,000,000 * 15 - $175,000,000 = ~$1.1 billion. However, only five films have actually done this, so results will be skewed in your favor.

Now, applying these values to a megahit video game: 8,500,000 * 45 (accounting for sales and such) - ~80,000,000 = ~$302,000,000.

Less than a third of what a big-hit film makes.

Let's extrapolate a bit farther: A good-quality film that's not a huge hit makes closer to $200,000,000. An equivalent game, theoretically, would make a mere $55,000,000.

So one mediocre game/good game with meh sales gives them $55,000,000 in profit... and they're expected to make another $80,000,000 game with that.

This doesn't count the used games market, which cuts the audience even more.

Gee, I wonder why they claim they aren't making enough.

(I'm fully aware that this is extremely approximate, probably skewed and not accounting for all the variables, but it still lends a lot of credence to big companies' claims that risks are really flipping dangerous and they can't afford to release a bad game, and also supports their claims that they aren't making enough, further justifying their attack on the used market and other... you get the idea. It's a bit bleak.)

 

[FamoFunk]

I make enough money to buy games new whenever I want, and I never sell them (I just like having things I guess?). But for some kids, I bet you the only way they CAN afford to get news games is with entirely lopsided trade-in offers.

I agree. I'm one of them to a degree a I heavily rely on pre-owned games. I mean, after paying bills, rent, car and a bit of food for the month there's sod all left to by a brand new games at the price they're charging.

I'll only invest in brand new games I know I'll keep (Portal 2, L.A Noire, RDR, LBP for example) I'm not paying up to £50 for an Activision/IW game I'll complete in 4 hours. Maybe if they made a decent enough game worth £50 they'd see my crispy notes.

 

[Weaver]

I make enough money to buy games new whenever I want, and I never sell them (I just like having things I guess?). But for some kids, I bet you the only way they CAN afford to get news games is with entirely lopsided trade-in offers.

I agree. I'm one of them to a degree a I heavily rely on pre-owned games. I mean, after paying bills, rent, car and a bit of food for the month there's sod all left to by a brand new games at the price they're charging.

I'll only invest in brand new games I know I'll keep (Portal 2, L.A Noire, RDR, LBP for example) I'm not paying up to £50 for an Activision/IW game I'll complete in 4 hours. Maybe if they made a decent enough game worth £50 they'd see my crispy notes.

And that's my point. Publishers hate used games, but I'd wager it's a large facilitator in allowing NEW games to actually sell. If someone trades in an EA title to buy a new EA title, is EA really losing money because someone later is going to buy that used one they just traded in?

I just feel publishers are mentally calculating that every used sale absolutely could equal a new sale, but it's just untrue as the used game churn helps people afford new titles.

And I guess, really, if a studio is getting squeezed by sales maybe they should set their budgets lower and just make a simpler game? It's like the gamers are getting accused of not spending enough. "How can we continue to make games! Why won't you buy every single thing we put out right away at full price?" We don't set your budget, and did you ever consider your CEO maybe doesn't need a 40 million dollar bonus every year? That could fund a whole dev team.

We're just being consumers as we should. Searching for deals and saving money when we can. And, importantly, not buying things we'd classify as rip-offs. I buy a lot of games. Almost all of which are new sales so it really gets to me when publishers play victim then, essentially, point their fingers at all gamers claiming WE'RE killing the industry.

 

[The Artificially Prolonged]

Make games that people want to keep instead of 5 hour games with tacked on multiplayer, that will lower used sales.

 

[Baron von Blitztank]

Games can be pretty costly when bought at "new" prices.
Last month I bought used copies of Batman: Arkham Asylum, Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Oblivion all for a cheaper price than a new copy of Rayman Origins! It's way more effective for my money if I get three games cheaper than it is for the price of one.

 

[Epona]

I used to prefer new games and would buy new if the option was there. Stuff like this has completely turned me towards buying used games first if the option is there.

For example, when I bought my 3DS I looked for a used copy of Super Mario 3D Land but couldn't find one so I had to buy new, $40. For Zelda OOT 3D though, I bought it used for $31.50 ($34.99-10%). Publishers need to understand that they are only hurting themselves with this competition hating BS.

What if McDonalds was constantly bashing Burger King, would that affect your decision to go to McDonalds?

 

[Andrew_C]

I'm sure it's already been mentioned but if publishers were willing to publish more compelling and replayable games like Elite, people wouldn't be so ready to trade in their games as soon as they finished playing through.

 

[zidine100]

funny i was under the impression that removing competition would increase prices, oh well.

 

[Electric Alpaca]

It only ever appears to be entitlement when its the consumer.

Remarkable .

No, it's entitlement when a party ignores facts that don't favour their slanted view - irrespective of which party is doing it.

Stuff like this:

Lies. All Lies. Does anyone remember the article saying the games industry grew by 11% last year?

Also. Which other entertainment industry is trying to screw the 2nd hand product industry? Cars, CD's, DVD's in fact every product in the world has a 2nd hand market why do the games industry believe they deserve money from that 2nd sale?

Car manufacturers do try and secure profit from future second hand sales; non transferable warranties and servicing mandatory by certified garages are two prime examples.

Interesting you place car in entertainment industry too, although I expect was more to do with the knee jerk comparison so many rush to.

The reason why the industry continues to grow is because of actions taken, whether you like it or not.

This is when it's entitlement in it's purest form, if you don't like the slope the business model runs on: leave. Who the hell is any one person to say how a profitable corporation should act? It's a luxury commodity - complaints about fuel pricing, for example, would be understandable.

I can't fathom the mentality of people that can't get it into their heads this is a non-essential market created solely for profit. Not to be your friend, not to pander to you; solely to take your money.

If you don't like it, don't open your wallet. It is literally as simple as that.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Thing is, the money made on used is what pays the bills for game shops. With out used im sure it would be less profitable to have these stores open. I buy few games new, especially those i know will be completed in a day or two i just rent.

If consoles games become digital download only, then i just wont own a console. DD is a ripoff and still expensive even with out distribution and costs of discs, cases and manuals. The price of downloadable books and music isn't that much cheaper than the physical copy. An once everything is digital, then the prices will rise back to where they are now.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

So one mediocre game/good game with meh sales gives them $55,000,000 in profit... and they're expected to make another $80,000,000 game with that.

Yes they can. That is $55 million profit. As in they made back the cost to make the game and an extra $55 million on top. They can easily make another game.

 

[Sean Steele]

Game industry logic.

Sell Product to Individual = Still owns the product = Being robbed when individual resales product.

 

[lacktheknack]

So one mediocre game/good game with meh sales gives them $55,000,000 in profit... and they're expected to make another $80,000,000 game with that.

Yes they can. That is $55 million profit. As in they made back the cost to make the game and an extra $55 million on top. They can easily make another game.

Uhm, that's profit from Project A only.

Where do they magically acquire the other $80,000,000 from for Project B? Investors can only do so much, are fickle, and withdraw at a moments notice, so they're not a reliable source of income. And the government does not hand you a multi-million dollar cheque for your business purposes in cases like this, it's YOUR job to make money.

You seem to forget that yes, they made back the first $80,000,000, but they still spent it.

EDIT: Craaaaaaap, I'm having a logic wire crossing and breaking my brain....

 

[likalaruku]

Reminds me of some other things I've read this year....

*Some lobbyists are trying to illegalize the reselling of media.
*Some lobbyists want resold media to have a hefty tax.
*Some game companies are putting resellers out of business by refusing to ship games to them.
*Some gaming magazines claim that developers are cutting out the publisher by selling their games online, forgoing physical store copies altogether, & getting their money from online fundraisers.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

If, however, people like Gamestop continue to buy the games people don't want and sell them at a price they would rather pay, the actual judgement of their pesky discerning customers will have an outlet from which to express their true evaluation of games in a real way that forces the game companies to compete.

Or customers, who are people much like the exact same assholes in charge of corporations, will ALWAYS buy the lower priced option regardless of the actual retail price of the product. If Gamestop is meant to lower prices, why haven't they? Maybe it's because there comes a point, with rising development costs, where the publishers literally can't budge from a release-day price point.

And Gamestop is just another similarly wired group of greedy assholes who discount used games a whole five dollars while buying your stuff for 10% of what you paid. Fact is: no one is clean in this mess. Everyone is being a shithead, and the ultimate victim will be gaming in general.

In other words, game publishers, like all businessmen, want to corner the market so they can make more money without having to work to make games better. Taking away used game sales helps them do that. If there are not entities out there to correct the prices set by the cartel, consumers will always be at their mercy.

And that would carry a lot more weight if the massive publishers weren't losing hundreds of millions of dollars a year at this point. They're starting to pull seriously dick moves with no regard for their customers, which is usually a great indicator that things are pretty dire. I mean they aren't even bothering to worry about public perception anymore because the ship is fucking sinking.

To be perfectly honest, the big publishers are very nearly obsolete. Digital distribution is clearly the future of the industry (some would argue the present), and you don't need fucking EA or Activision to push your product for you anymore. The efforts have been relatively small thus far (fare like Amnesia, etc.), but you can bet those devs are making a LOT more money than the army of programming drones slaving away on EA titles 80+ hours a week.