Utah creates 5 person commission to regulate one trans girl playing sports

TheMysteriousGX

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I do, but your comment was so dumb, I skipped past the obvious and gave you a second chance.

What sort of person looks back at a time when a bunch of popular liberal ideas were invented and passed and thinks "it doesn't count as a liberal moment in history if they didn't pass everything super easily"? What is the logic you're trying to employ? There has never been a moment in American governance when any faction could do whatever they wanted without opposition. Your argument applied evenly would suggest that there has never been a moment in time where one side had a meaningful lead. That's absolute nonsense.
I think it was more you describing the era of the civil rights movement as "social liberalism getting little out of hand"

Whereas most people see this as "conservatives lost their ability to oppress people for the status quo and pivoted towards a supposed easier target".
 

Terminal Blue

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There is a concerted effort by left wing activists to make trans people as visible as possible to specifically children, because they believe the same as you.
There is not.

At best a concerted effort by a handful of trans people to make themselves visible to trans children in order to provide the kind of emotional validation and honest advice that they wish they had received as children. It's an impulse I fully understand and sympathize with. My generation of queer people were catastrophically failed by the society we live in, and often by our own families, and a lot of us feel very protective of younger queer people and don't want them to experience the same thing, because noone should have to experience what we did, and certainly not what the generations before us did.

In general, queer children and young people today have resources which previous generations did not. They have the ability to form peer communities in a way previous generations did not. This terrifies a lot of homophobic and transphobic adults who like to imagine it is some kind of nefarious scheme to turn all the kids gay or trans. It isn't, it's largely driven by those kids themselves. Even those trans people who are visible are only visible because they are given eyeballs by an audience.

We flip basically every 20 years which is the dominant cultural sentiment, and we are sliding right into a decade of conservative dominance as the predictable reaction to social liberalism getting a little out of hand.
I think if you want to imagine the societal mood as flipping between progress and reaction, you sorely misunderstand where we are in the curve.

The oldest baby boomers are 75. The average life expectancy in the US is just under 79. A change is coming is coming to political landscape, but I don't think it will be the one you think, and I think unless the Republican party can pull a 9G turn in the very near future, they are at risk of sliding into temporary irrelevance. Because I don't think courting Qanon is going to pay off in any kind of long term sense.

Again, how do you not see that this is just drugging children to make them conform to social expectations?
Do you think that conforming to societal expectations is inherently a bad thing?

Think about the implications of that for one moment.

I don't think it's wrong to conform to societal expectations. I don't think it's wrong to have a job. I don't think it's wrong to have children. I don't think it's wrong to work hard at school. I don't think it's wrong to wear clothing that matches your assigned sex at birth. These are all examples of conforming to societal expectations. For many people, conforming to societal expectations is necessary for their own happiness.

All this aside, do you honestly believe a trans child, quite possibly the most hated and discriminated against group of children in existence relative to their actual number, is conforming to societal expectations?

And again, I'll say this as many times as needed, there are with certainty people with internal psychological conditions that can't be solved externally, and coping is what you can do, and I support that treatment. But for people with social and environmental issues, coping with drugs is not an appropriate response, as it does not address the problem.
Again, you are seeing a clear line between things which are not clear in reality.

If you have a person with depression, and that person is living a very unhealthy life, how do you determine whether their depression is caused by their life circumstances or whether their life circumstances are caused by depression? Depression is extremely debilitating, it makes it hard to work, it makes it hard to keep friends, it makes it hard to look after yourself, it can make you do stupid or risky things.

On the other hand, depression isn't the same thing as a normal emotion. Feeling intense pain and grief because a loved one has died is normal. It can feel impossible at the time and therapy or even medication might help that person feel better in the short term, but over time that person will start to feel better on their own and adapt to their circumstances. When a person isn't able to adapt to their circumstances, when their resilience has broken down so much that they just keep being hurt by tiny things and the way they feel never improves, that's become an internal psychological problem.

Long term depression changes how you think. It takes away the happiness in everything you do. It makes the world hollow and joyless and painful to live in. There are few things more irritating, if you've experienced that, than having someone suggest some facetious, easy thing which they think will make depressed people happy. I promise you that it won't.

Here's a good litmus test. Before suggesting any activity or environmental change you think will help someone with depression, think about how it would sound if you suggested the same thing to someone who had just lost someone very close to them and was experiencing intense grief.

"Aspects of myself do not match up with the social expectations of my sex" is not a medical or psychological issue, it is a social issue, giving kids drugs is not a solution to that problem.
Those aren't mutually exclusive categories. Social-psychology is a thing. Clinical psychology is a thing.
 
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tstorm823

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I think it was more you describing the era of the civil rights movement as "social liberalism getting little out of hand"
The big push of the civil rights movement was at the beginning of that period of liberalism, not the part where it got a little out of hand.

A movement takes the cultural lead and pushes through the things of high priority, and people support that for a while. Eventually, they run out of things people support, and end up pushing things that are unpopular. At that point the opposition takes the cultural lead and pushes through their things of high priority, and people support that for a while... so on and so forth.

On the topic of the ERA, one of the things that killed that in the late 70s was the fear among some women that it would put them into the draft. Here we are again at the inflection point where conservatives take the reins, and one of the things being considered about 6 months ago was expanding the draft to include women. I don't know why Democrats want that, but it's not a popular idea, that's the sort of thing you try and hail mary on your way out of power. It was unpopular in the 70s, and it still is now.
There is not.
There is literally International Transgender Visibility Day.
I think if you want to imagine the societal mood as flipping between progress and reaction, you sorely misunderstand where we are in the curve.

The oldest baby boomers are 75. The average life expectancy in the US is just under 79. A change is coming is coming to political landscape, but I don't think it will be the one you think, and I think unless the Republican party can pull a 9G turn in the very near future, they are at risk of sliding into temporary irrelevance. Because I don't think courting Qanon is going to pay off in any kind of long term sense.
The baby boomers aren't a particularly conservative generation. Populations (at least in this country, I'm ignorant otherwise) get more conservative as they age, so by consequence of being the oldest politically active generation, they are the conservative vanguard of the moment, a conservative vanguard that has been largely on the back foot for a generation (because they aren't that good at being conservative). The baby boomers were more progressive in their youth than gen x was. By some metrics, even millennials may trend more conservative at relative position in life than the boomers were at the same position. The boomers won't die off and leave everyone else exactly as they stand now, they will be replace by a new conservative vanguard out of gens x through z, who are going to be significantly more effective.

Like, the only president from clearly within the Baby Boomer generation is Obama. Biden, Trump, Bush Jr, and Clinton are all from the border of the baby boom and the silent generation. Mitch McConnell is the silent generation. Clarence Thomas is barely a baby boomer. Ron Paul is silent generation (his son that people don't really like is the boomer). The heart of the Baby Boom never really did anything as conservative leadership. Now who is taking the reins? Ron Desantis is gen x. Marc Rubio is gen x. Ted Cruz is gen x. Liz Cheney is gen x. Nicky Haley, Glen Youngking, Tim Scott... these are all names being floated as potentional presidential candidates for 2024, and they are all gen X. Your thesis about the boomers dying and taking conservatism with them is misinformed.
Do you think that conforming to societal expectations is inherently a bad thing?
No, I do not. But I also don't think not conforming is an inherently bad thing, and treating something with drugs is what we do with medically bad things, not socially medium ones.
All this aside, do you honestly believe a trans child, quite possibly the most hated and discriminated against group of children in existence relative to their actual number, is conforming to societal expectations?
No, which is sort of the point. The child is not conforming to begin with, and the medical treatment is to help them better conform.
Long term depression changes how you think. It takes away the happiness in everything you do. It makes the world hollow and joyless and painful to live in.
Which is exactly why real change is needed. Medications don't fill those hollow spaces. They dull the pain so you can manage to live with them, but the world remains hollow.
Here's a good litmus test. Before suggesting any activity or environmental change you think will help someone with depression, think about how it would sound if you suggested the same thing to someone who had just lost someone very close to them and was experiencing intense grief.
You've already established that you know that isn't the same thing. Grief is a healthy process. It was acceptance of grief that ultimately broke me out of a decade of depression.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I don't know why Democrats want that, but it's not a popular idea, that's the sort of thing you try and hail mary on your way out of power. It was unpopular in the 70s, and it still is now.
Democrats *didn't* want that. It was put forward by a dipshit republican as a "you say you want equality but you really don't" gotcha that backfired hilariously
There is literally International Transgender Visibility Day.
Oh wow, a non-binding internet day roughly on par with International Talk Like A Pirate Day
No, I do not. But I also don't think not conforming is an inherently bad thing, and treating something with drugs is what we do with medically bad things, not socially medium ones.

No, which is sort of the point. The child is not conforming to begin with, and the medical treatment is to help them better conform.
In a way that society hates, which is generally the opposite of the way people use "made to conform". Like, I'm pretty sure most of these kids would rather stay in the closet than have an entire state apparatus come after them personally if it were a choice

Then again, you really keep trying to push "the kids don't actually want this, it's all those grooming doctors and trans activists" angle
 
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McElroy

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My takeaway from this is that you still think people choose to be trans instead of being born that way. Yes, no?
Funny enough as nobody is born with a gender identity yet there are certainly people who choose to be trans. The only possible correct answer is yes.
 

tstorm823

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"How dare a marginalised community that routinely gets erased, disowned and murdered get a day dedicated to highlighting their issues!"
I did not say "how dare they", I said there is an effort by trans activists to increase trans visibility with the goal of expanding acceptance, and TerminalBlue disagreed for no readily explainable reason.
Democrats *didn't* want that. It was put forward by a dipshit republican as a "you say you want equality but you really don't" gotcha that backfired hilariously
Uh, nope.
Oh wow, a non-binding internet day roughly on par with International Talk Like A Pirate Day
That's my second favorite holiday. September 19th. I did not have to look that up.
My takeaway from this is that you still think people choose to be trans instead of being born that way. Yes, no?
That dichotomy is without nuance. Do you choose to like things? That's not a question with an easy answer, there are definitely acquired tastes as well as natural ones. And then is there a distinction between having an attribute and being the thing that attribute describes. Does one choose to enjoy My Little Pony? I don't know. Does someone choose to be a Brony? I would say yes, on the basis that one has to choose to treat "Brony" as a category to be. Does a person choose to not naturally conform to societal gender stereotypes? I don't think so, at least not in most cases. Does that make the person trans? Only if the person chooses to believe "trans" is an identity worth claiming.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Uh, nope.
Huh, neat. Bipartisan support there
Does that make the person trans? Only if the person chooses to believe "trans" is an identity worth claiming.
Weird how this argument doesn't come up for cis people and you aren't pretending that agender is the way to go.

Whole lotta people "choosing" to conform with exactly what society expects of them but it's only a problem with a tiny subset
 

Buyetyen

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Funny enough as nobody is born with a gender identity yet there are certainly people who choose to be trans. The only possible correct answer is yes.
Congratulations. You put more thought into your response than tstorm did. I mean, look at that word salad.
 

tstorm823

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Weird how this argument doesn't come up for cis people and you aren't pretending that agender is the way to go.
I mean... "There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male and female; since you are all one in Christ Jesus. "
 

Trunkage

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I do, but your comment was so dumb, I skipped past the obvious and gave you a second chance.

What sort of person looks back at a time when a bunch of popular liberal ideas were invented and passed and thinks "it doesn't count as a liberal moment in history if they didn't pass everything super easily"? What is the logic you're trying to employ? There has never been a moment in American governance when any faction could do whatever they wanted without opposition. Your argument applied evenly would suggest that there has never been a moment in time where one side had a meaningful lead. That's absolute nonsense.
You think.... all those policies were invented.... in the 60s/70s?

You're also mistaking what popular today for what's popular back then. The CRA is popular today. It definitely wasn't back then. Not just by racists. By state rights people who think that the CRA is a huge governmental overreach.

Also, also, medicare for all today is popular with 70% of the US population. Why would being popular ever matter? As a KPI, it's utterly useless.

After all the BLM activism, which was popular with the majority of the US, what actual policies have been made. A few spatterings of milquetoast reforms. What's popular doesn't matter

Almost 90% of Americans want abortions to be legal. Fortunately, we can just ignore whats popular because Fundie Christians need to force their ideology onto people

And no. I don't think anyone has ever had a meaningful lead. You get maybe 4 to 8 years of barely adequate reforms. Eg. Roe v Wade just enshrined what the majority of Christians wanted, it was only later that we have to pretend it was the libs destroying society etc. It's just a narrative the Fundies have to develop to their world an 'Us v Them' situation
 
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Trunkage

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It is so strange when people think the War on Drugs came out of nowhere and wasn't deliberately built towards since the civil war. The only real innovative thing was combing the anti-drug thing with the anti-black thing
 

Buyetyen

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It is so strange when people think the War on Drugs came out of nowhere and wasn't deliberately built towards since the civil war. The only real innovative thing was combing the anti-drug thing with the anti-black thing
Pioneered in part by William Randolph Herst and Henry J Anslinger. Herst just didn't want hemp paper competing as a material with newsprint. Anslinger was a fucking racist down to the bone marrow. Look up some of the shit he said on the record for why weed is bad sometime because it's mostly about black people.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I mean... "There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male and female; since you are all one in Christ Jesus. "
Yeah, except there were and are still all of those, heavily enforced with exceptional violence and genocide with Christians using that quote as pretext. Hell, you're the one in this conversation that believes the state is absolutely correct to strictly enforce sex division in this case to stop one child from playing a game in high school with the wrong people
 
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Thaluikhain

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Interestingly, when the US lost its SE Asia territories during WW2 they lost their main source of manila rope. So they had to suddenly let people grow marijuana (sometimes spelt marihuana officially) to make hemp rope in massive quantities.
 

Phoenixmgs

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That would mean no tax incentives for married couples, visitation rights at hospitals would be thornier, questions of inheritance, and a whole bunch of other downstream effects. No, the government not recognizing marriage in any secular capacity is just a stupid idea. Also, "create their own religion?" Atheists can just fuck right off and die, huh? Nice to know what you actually think of us. Marriage is not just a religious concept, and if you don't understand that, maybe you shouldn't get married.
I said "IF", not that I was actually for the idea. I was basically explaining why marriage limited to different sexes was unconstitutional because IF the government didn't recognize marriage, then there would be no inequality obviously. I'm an atheist and there is an atheist religion (probably more than one) but it's kinda redundant obviously. I've never gone to church in my life outside of mass during funerals. You keep assuming I'm some right-wing christian conservative or something when I've never voted for a republican and never gone to church. I was never even baptized either.


You haven't seen very many trans people then. Or heard the stories of butch women getting harassed and attacked for not looking femme enough

Lmao, you have a distinct lack of imagination/ability to look up anything, huh. (EDIT: just realized this, but couldn't a medical doctor use those "clues" to do the medical shit you're super concerned about without fucking up somebody's ability to buy beer?)

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Whether or not some hypothetical person might've been shorter in a different life is irrelevant to claiming a height advantage in the real world. "Men are taller on average" does not mean that any individual person then necessarily has an advantage. Mugsy Bouges, celebrated cis man, does not have a height advantage on real actual people by virtue of being a dude. Trends do not apply to individuals.

Besides, this is fixed by giving kids hormones, a thing that I'm guessing you are *super* against

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Well, it does, regardless of if you see why. Cis women are being banned for having too much natural testosterone

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All things modifiable by hormones and steroids, seeing as we modify them with steroids and hormones

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My argument is that states have never banned a gay man from his ability to get married, just like states have never banned a trans girl from playing sports, as per your argument.

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Incidentally, Florida wants to ban trans children from life:
People get harassed for tons of things. You ain't even going to be able to stop that. There's 2 trans people in my board game group so I probably interact with more than the average person. There's less clues to who someone is when they're unconscious, being able to check an ID is the fastest check which might be important depending on the situation.

You talk about me not looking up stuff, why don't you look up 'why men are taller than women' and the theories as of why. And I say theories because we don't know for sure. It seems like it has to do with changes in hormones after puberty. So yes, assuming no growth abnormalities, if you're a guy, you will end up taller than if you were a gal. If we can't even determine for sure why men are taller, but we totally know that men that transition to women have equal physical ability as biological women? You can't go back in time and block hormones after puberty. If someone that's 20 wants to transition, they've gained some physical advantages of being a man that you can't reverse.

It's bad for getting banned from doing nothing wrong, it happens though, but the downside would be far worse not drug screening.

So taking hormones reduces your height and size of your organs?

Again, it's apples and oranges. Marriage has no reason to be separated by sex while sports does. It's like using the separate by equal argument against women's sports. We should just have one team per sport with the school's best athletes then. Your argument is so disingenuous.

Can you just stop with the hyperbole and exaggeration? Florida does not want to ban trans children from life, that is ridiculous. I feel that a decision as big as a sex change is an adult decision. I'd also agree that it's probably a good thing to have children not taking drugs that they don't need to take regardless of the situation because they're children. I haven't researched every trans medical treatment obviously so I could be convinced of a few things possibly being OK like puberty blockers. I do agree with the broad strokes of children not being able to decide something like a sex change at that age and not taking medicine that they don't need.


Yeah you're just a transphobe. It's that simple.
People not 100% aligned with whatever the current trans narrative is are not transphobes.

I would suggest that you look up the term transinvestigation. No, it seems that figuring out if someone is trans is generally pretty hard, at least stated by those in Q

Here's a primer to get you started and then go down a massive Qhole

Don't really care to get recommendations tied to watching that so no thanks.

I've been trying to find out what specifically got a bunch of Maths textbook banned. Here's what some publishes are guessing about their own books


DeSantis and hosts critiques go for about 3 mins before getting to the publishers stance
I'm guessing most of the math books were rejected because of including common core. Until there's actual confirmed reasons vs speculation, Occam's Razor and all.
 

Cheetodust

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People not 100% aligned with whatever the current trans narrative is are not transphobes.
You don't think trans men are men and you think that all trans people have "clues" to their assigned sex.

You can stop with all the sophistry and pretense. You're a transphobe.

Edit: also, you're letting your transphobia get in the way if your own arguments. You say that someone's births sex should be on their ID so doctors can know if they are unconscious. But also cops can tell a trans person without checking their ID because there are "clues". You're just willing to make every single argument to discredit trans people even if the arguments you use are mutually exclusive. And the reason is that you are a transphobe.
 
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McElroy

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People not 100% aligned with whatever the current trans narrative is are not transphobes.
Or maybe always aligning 100% with it is the only way to not be one. AFAIK, postmodern transphobia starts at when someone says 'woman' or 'man' they always mean a cis-[wo]man unless specified further. Very little left to care about if there is no space between woke and transphobic.
 

Cheetodust

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Or maybe always aligning 100% with it is the only way to not be one. AFAIK, postmodern transphobia starts at when someone says 'woman' or 'man' they always mean a cis-[wo]man unless specified further. Very little left to care about if there is no space between woke and transphobic.
Look you guys can try and tart it up all you want but the idea that you can always spot a trans person and literally saying that trans men are women is as blatant as it gets. Bigots always like to be careful with their language and not say anything too blatant so they can play dumb and accuse people of being "woke" but Phoenix just forgot to reign it in this time and told on themself. It happens eventually.
 
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