Utah creates 5 person commission to regulate one trans girl playing sports

TheMysteriousGX

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And those trans people had bad things happen because they are trans? The article said the one cop used a racial slur and shot, that sounds like racism, not transphobia. One other story is about them not checking up on someone because they thought they were sleeping, which I'd venture happens a lot of the time to anyone. You think if you get footage of them checking solitary of non trans people, you think they actually checking every 15mins?
"Cops are shitty all the time, but they're definitely not shitty due to transphobia. Ignore the rest of the article. Doubly ignore that I'm proposing to out trans people to anybody checking an ID for zero reason"
He does if he grew after puberty.

A 5-inch height growth after puberty and a 1-inch reduction in transitioning is still a 4-inch advantage.
Again, Players do not play against alternate reality versions of themselves and thus their hypothetical alternate reality height should not be a basis for rules. Mugsey Bogues is 5'3" tall, about as tall as the shortest person to ever play in the WNBA. He might have other advantages, but he does not have an inherent height advantage due to being male.
You chose that.
You said, and I quote, "states aren't banning trans girls from playing sports". Of course, states are banning trans girls from playing sports with other girls. This is the same logic as saying "states never banned gay men from getting married" when gay men could always marry women. You just happen to agree with the former.
I guess Sweden fucking hates trans people too? Here's their guidelines and evidence. Florida just hates trans people but comes to the same conclusions as a far more progressive country than the US did...?
Lmao, so you didn't read those recommendations, which still allow for cross gender hormones for kids when prepubertal onset of gender dysphoria exists (a key difference in *most* US rules, Florida in particular), puberty blockers in "extreme" cases in post-pubertal kids, social transition as part of therapy, etc?

You're just gonna sit there and lie about Sweden with contradictory evidence you're linking to? Like, I think they're too restrictive, but they're leagues better than the bullshit you're defending.
 
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Buyetyen

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I'm not pro-forced birth...
Unless you're pro-choice, you're pro-forced birth. Fence sitting just serves the conservative agenda.

I don't really agree with either, I don't know that law well enough. I don't honestly know if the constitution the way it is allows for abortion to be dictated on a federal level. I do know the current argument does not. The right is not directly in the constitution as in it's not mentioned directly, that's not to say you can't argue it is indirectly by using current amendments.
So again, you're siding with Alito's logic, not RBG.
 

Phoenixmgs

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"Cops are shitty all the time, but they're definitely not shitty due to transphobia. Ignore the rest of the article. Doubly ignore that I'm proposing to out trans people to anybody checking an ID for zero reason"

Again, Players do not play against alternate reality versions of themselves and thus their hypothetical alternate reality height should not be a basis for rules. Mugsey Bogues is 5'3" tall, about as tall as the shortest person to ever play in the WNBA. He might have other advantages, but he does not have an inherent height advantage due to being male.

You said, and I quote, "states aren't banning trans girls from playing sports". Of course, states are banning trans girls from playing sports with other girls. This is the same logic as saying "states never banned gay men from getting married" when gay men could always marry women. You just happen to agree with the former.

Lmao, so you didn't read those recommendations, which still allow for cross gender hormones for kids when prepubertal onset of gender dysphoria exists (a key difference in *most* US rules, Florida in particular), puberty blockers in "extreme" cases in post-pubertal kids, social transition as part of therapy, etc?

You're just gonna sit there and lie about Sweden with contradictory evidence you're linking to? Like, I think they're too restrictive, but they're leagues better than the bullshit you're defending.
And some statistics about cops singling out trans people like they do black people has not been submitted. Just because something bad happened to a trans person doesn't mean it was because they were trans.

Boys grow more than girls, it is extremely likely that any given man is his height because extra growth received and won't have as much height if he were a woman instead. That's literally biology.

It's not the same fucking logic and I'm getting tired of explaining it. In one issue sex doesn't matter, in the other sex does matter. Women's sports then prove "separate but equal" isn't racist in your world of "logic".

THEY ARE FUCKING GUIDELINES. They aren't any rules or laws. It's like the CDC guideline of not eating a steak under a medium cook, nobody is gonna stop you from eating a rare steak. Sweden came to basically the same conclusions but merely worded it a bit better to your liking.

NBHW also emphasized that identity formation in youth is an evolving process, and that the experience of natural puberty is a vital step in the development of the overall identity, as well as gender identity.

the NBHW has concluded that, at present, the risks of hormonal interventions for gender dysphoric youth outweigh the potential benefits.

As a result of this determination, the eligibility for pediatric gender transition with puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones in Sweden will be sharply curtailed. Only a minority of gender dysphoric youth—those with the “classic” childhood onset of cross-sex identification and distress, which persist and cause clear suffering in adolescence—will be considered as potentially eligible for hormonal interventions, pending additional, extensive multidisciplinary evaluation.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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And some statistics about cops singling out trans people like they do black people has not been submitted. Just because something bad happened to a trans person doesn't mean it was because they were trans.
Still just pretending transphobia doesn't exist to defend making IDs out people for no reason
Boys grow more than girls, it is extremely likely that any given man is his height because extra growth received and won't have as much height if he were a woman instead. That's literally biology.
That's also not what "height advantage" means in sports
It's not the same fucking logic and I'm getting tired of explaining it. In one issue sex doesn't matter, in the other sex does matter. Women's sports then prove "separate but equal" isn't racist in your world of "logic".
Well of course "separate but equal" isn't racist when it comes to women's sports. It's sexist, and there's lots of example of it playing out as sexist when it comes to things like TV time, funding, tournaments, etc.

State agencies *are* banning trans girls from playing sports. If you argue they don't, you're wrong.
THEY ARE FUCKING GUIDELINES. They aren't any rules or laws. It's like the CDC guideline of not eating a steak under a medium cook, nobody is gonna stop you from eating a rare steak. Sweden came to basically the same conclusions but merely worded it a bit better to your liking.
They're FUCKING GUIDELINES FOR STATE HEALTH AGENCIES. As in STATE AGENCIES FOR HEALTH. So yeah, it's not illegal for non-state health agencies to continue with trans healthcare, but this isn't an info pamphlet for BBQ day either.

Now go count how many health agencies in Florida don't rely on state money.
NBHW also emphasized that identity formation in youth is an evolving process, and that the experience of natural puberty is a vital step in the development of the overall identity, as well as gender identity.

the NBHW has concluded that, at present, the risks of hormonal interventions for gender dysphoric youth outweigh the potential benefits.

As a result of this determination, the eligibility for pediatric gender transition with puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones in Sweden will be sharply curtailed. Only a minority of gender dysphoric youth—those with the “classic” childhood onset of cross-sex identification and distress, which persist and cause clear suffering in adolescence—will be considered as potentially eligible for hormonal interventions, pending additional, extensive multidisciplinary evaluation.
Like I said: I still think Sweden is being too restrictive, but it's a damn sight better than banning it outright, which is what Florida is doing. They aren't "reaching the same conclusions", and it's an affront to the English language that you claim they are
 

Phoenixmgs

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Still just pretending transphobia doesn't exist to defend making IDs out people for no reason

That's also not what "height advantage" means in sports

Well of course "separate but equal" isn't racist when it comes to women's sports. It's sexist, and there's lots of example of it playing out as sexist when it comes to things like TV time, funding, tournaments, etc.

State agencies *are* banning trans girls from playing sports. If you argue they don't, you're wrong.

They're FUCKING GUIDELINES FOR STATE HEALTH AGENCIES. As in STATE AGENCIES FOR HEALTH. So yeah, it's not illegal for non-state health agencies to continue with trans healthcare, but this isn't an info pamphlet for BBQ day either.

Now go count how many health agencies in Florida don't rely on state money.

Like I said: I still think Sweden is being too restrictive, but it's a damn sight better than banning it outright, which is what Florida is doing. They aren't "reaching the same conclusions", and it's an affront to the English language that you claim they are
You're always changing the argument. You said cops will see that they are trans on their IDs and then harass them. Where is there any proof of this happening?

What do you think "height advantage" means in sports? It's pretty simple, being taller than the other player(s).

How is having women's sports sexist (in a derogatory manner)? They wouldn't even be competing if they weren't separate.

Name a single trans girl that can't play a sport.

How is a guideline some hard rule that you can't break? You're complaining about guidelines not laws. And they are guidelines based on scientific studies, Sweden came to the same conclusions. Please explain how Florida is banning things via guidelines?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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You're always changing the argument. You said cops will see that they are trans on their IDs and then harass them. Where is there any proof of this happening?
There is zero evidence that you will accept
What do you think "height advantage" means in sports? It's pretty simple, being taller than the other player(s).
And Mugsy Bogues does not have a height advantage against any player in the WNBA.
How is having women's sports sexist (in a derogatory manner)? They wouldn't even be competing if they weren't separate.
Depends on the sport, and if you think they're being treated equally I've got an NFT to sell you
Name a single trans girl that can't play a sport.
Name a single gay man that couldn't marry a woman
How is a guideline some hard rule that you can't break? You're complaining about guidelines not laws. And they are guidelines based on scientific studies, Sweden came to the same conclusions. Please explain how Florida is banning things via guidelines?
1) They we're guidelines for their own state agencies. Do you not know how governments work?

2) Sweden did not come to the same conclusions. Hell, Sweden straight up allows Hormone Replacement Therapy in prepubescent kids in certain situations. You yourself posted evidence showing that. Why are you blatantly lying?
 

Phoenixmgs

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There is zero evidence that you will accept

And Mugsy Bogues does not have a height advantage against any player in the WNBA.

Depends on the sport, and if you think they're being treated equally I've got an NFT to sell you

Name a single gay man that couldn't marry a woman

1) They we're guidelines for their own state agencies. Do you not know how governments work?

2) Sweden did not come to the same conclusions. Hell, Sweden straight up allows Hormone Replacement Therapy in prepubescent kids in certain situations. You yourself posted evidence showing that. Why are you blatantly lying?
I told you a way of proving it, the same way we prove cops are racist.

Men are taller than women, trans women are taller than women, hence height advantage. This is basic fucking logic.

I didn't say women are being treated equally, you'd have to go sport by sport and look at how much revenue the sport brings in and compare the average payout to the players based on said revenue and then compare the same thing to men to see if women are being treated equally or not. At least for the WNBA, women shouldn't even be playing because the sport isn't profitable so the women actually make more than the men in NBA when you compare revenue streams, the men are actually treated unequally in that comparison. The fact that women are separated is not sexist.

Again, will you please stop making bullshit arguments?

Does a doctor have to go to a state agency to get the OK to prescribe a drug or treatment? Sweden said hormone replacement therapy is not recommended. How is not recommending something (either Sweden, Florida, or any other place) = banning it?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I told you a way of proving it, the same way we prove cops are racist.
Lmao
Men are taller than women, trans women are taller than women, hence height advantage. This is basic fucking logic.
Lmao, sure. Mugsy Bogues has a height advantage at 5'3".
I didn't say women are being treated equally, you'd have to go sport by sport and look at how much revenue the sport brings in and compare the average payout to the players based on said revenue and then compare the same thing to men to see if women are being treated equally or not. At least for the WNBA, women shouldn't even be playing because the sport isn't profitable so the women actually make more than the men in NBA when you compare revenue streams, the men are actually treated unequally in that comparison. The fact that women are separated is not sexist.
And yet, you'd be decrying a trans women playing in the WNBA,
Again, will you please stop making bullshit arguments?
So you agree, trans girls are getting banned from playing sports. It's okay to say yes, YOU SUPPORT DOING SO
Does a doctor have to go to a state agency to get the OK to prescribe a drug or treatment?
When working for the state health department, yes
Sweden said hormone replacement therapy is not recommended. How is not recommending something (either Sweden, Florida, or any other place) = banning it?
You gotta read the whole fucking thing. You don't just get to stop in the middle and pretend it's done
 

Phoenixmgs

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Lmao

Lmao, sure. Mugsy Bogues has a height advantage at 5'3".
And yet, you'd be decrying a trans women playing in the WNBA,
So you agree, trans girls are getting banned from playing sports. It's okay to say yes, YOU SUPPORT DOING SO
When working for the state health department, yes

You gotta read the whole fucking thing. You don't just get to stop in the middle and pretend it's done
One incident isn't police in general are harassing trans people. That's not how you prove cops are racist because of a single incident.

I'm sorry that you don't get basic logic.

I literally just said men are treated unequal in the NBA (in accordance to their revenue stream vs the women's revenue stream).

Trans girls are not getting banned from playing sports, this is getting really fucking old with your bullshit logic trying to compare apples and oranges.

Post the actual text that bans puberty blockers in Florida.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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One incident isn't police in general are harassing trans people. That's not how you prove cops are racist because of a single incident.
And there we go. I need to list *every* incident of a cop or anybody else harassing trans people over ID and making sure they aren't also using a racial slur. There is no evidence that you would accept
I'm sorry that you don't get basic logic.
You're trying to apply population statistics to individual people. That's not how that works
I literally just said men are treated unequal in the NBA (in accordance to their revenue stream vs the women's revenue stream).
I know, and it's dumb as shit
Trans girls are not getting banned from playing sports, this is getting really fucking old with your bullshit logic trying to compare apples and oranges.
The logic is exactly the same. The only difference is that you support banning trans girls from playing girls but don't support banning gay guys from marrying guys. It's a ban either way.
Post the actual text that bans puberty blockers in Florida.
Never said Florida banned it. Said Florida wanted to, which they do, based on their published state health guidelines.

The bans come later
 

Phoenixmgs

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And there we go. I need to list *every* incident of a cop or anybody else harassing trans people over ID and making sure they aren't also using a racial slur. There is no evidence that you would accept

You're trying to apply population statistics to individual people. That's not how that works

I know, and it's dumb as shit

The logic is exactly the same. The only difference is that you support banning trans girls from playing girls but don't support banning gay guys from marrying guys. It's a ban either way.

Never said Florida banned it. Said Florida wanted to, which they do, based on their published state health guidelines.

The bans come later
You use stats to prove things like you do with racism. One racist cop doesn't equal that cops are racist and why it was proved with statistics.

Is there only one individual trans person trying to play in a sport that doesn't match their sex? If you have trans women playing based on their gender, then they will GENERALLY have a height advantage.

How is it dumb? Just because you don't like it? Pro spots players are in essence entertainers and should make money based on how many people are entertained by watching, which leads to how much money the sport brings in. WNBA players are making more with regards to how much money their sport brings in vs the NBA because the WNBA isn't profitable.

The only difference is one thing is based on sex and the other isn't. The thing based on sex should stay based on sex. Men are banned from playing with women. "It's a ban either way."

How does one ban something via guidelines? Come back when some place actually bans something or at least has a bill up to ban something.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Is there only one individual trans person trying to play in a sport that doesn't match their sex?
Yeah, typically. This thread was based around state legislators pulling some massive bullshit to regulate the single trans girl who wants to play high school sports in all of Utah
If you have trans women playing based on their gender, then they will GENERALLY have a height advantage.
And if you make a rule that says an individual trans person *can't* play because they have a height advantage while being shorter than their competitors, that's a dumbass rule
How is it dumb? Just because you don't like it? Pro spots players are in essence entertainers and should make money based on how many people are entertained by watching, which leads to how much money the sport brings in. WNBA players are making more with regards to how much money their sport brings in vs the NBA because the WNBA isn't profitable.
The starting lowest salary in the NBA is five times higher than the starting salary in the WNBA. Like, I get the pure math point you're trying to make, but you're effectively arguing that, in this thread where you're trying to "defend women's sport", that women's basketball shouldn't exist
The only difference is one thing is based on sex and the other isn't. The thing based on sex should stay based on sex. Men are banned from playing with women. "It's a ban either way."
So stop saying trans girls aren't being banned from playing sports just because phrasing it that way hurts your feelings.
How does one ban something via guidelines? Come back when some place actually bans something or at least has a bill up to ban something.
State health agencies have to follow state health guidelines. Docotrs who want to accept state money have to follow state health guidelines. Dunno why that's so hard for you to accept. You seem to get the idea when it's the CDC issuing guidelines for covid shit

 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Mostly good news coming out of Alabama: federal court struck down most of Alabama's "it's a felony to help trans kids" law, because naturally. Handily shuts down both the "nobody is trying to ban healthcare" *and* the "but Sweden did the same thing" arguments








Still has the complete ban on surgery that countries like Sweden still carve out exceptions for, and requires outing kids to their potentially homophobic or transphobic parents regardless of situation, though that last bit can be challenged under a different statute
 
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Trunkage

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So stop saying trans girls aren't being banned from playing sports just because phrasing it that way hurts your feelings.
I mean, Pheonexings could at least use a definition of sex that doesn't provide inaccuracies at a rate of 1 in 446

Or pretend that their definition has anything to do with biological sex. Because it doesn't.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Yeah, typically. This thread was based around state legislators pulling some massive bullshit to regulate the single trans girl who wants to play high school sports in all of Utah

And if you make a rule that says an individual trans person *can't* play because they have a height advantage while being shorter than their competitors, that's a dumbass rule

The starting lowest salary in the NBA is five times higher than the starting salary in the WNBA. Like, I get the pure math point you're trying to make, but you're effectively arguing that, in this thread where you're trying to "defend women's sport", that women's basketball shouldn't exist

So stop saying trans girls aren't being banned from playing sports just because phrasing it that way hurts your feelings.

State health agencies have to follow state health guidelines. Docotrs who want to accept state money have to follow state health guidelines. Dunno why that's so hard for you to accept. You seem to get the idea when it's the CDC issuing guidelines for covid shit

Is there more than one trans girl playing sports? The law isn't there for the first trans girl, it's there to be a the universal rule for all.

A guy is banned from playing with women if he's shorter... Women's sports must be a dumbass rule then...

Yes, the WNBA shouldn't exist because sports are entertainment and if your entertainment doesn't make a profit then it effectively doesn't exist in a normal economy. It's not like the WNBA just started and is taking losses because it's new. "Dinosaurs WNBA had their shot, and nature selected them for extinction."

Stop with the disingenuous argument. This is literally the final time I'm gonna say it.

Where does it say doctors have to follow a guideline? The Missouri law actually bans it because it's a law, not a guideline. I don't have a problem with it as long as it stays for just kids because it's a good rule to not have kids undergoing permanent and completely elective procedures regardless of what it is for. That's a good rule for adults too but adults are allowed to make those kind of decisions.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Is there more than one trans girl playing sports? The law isn't there for the first trans girl, it's there to be a the universal rule for all.
Lmao, it's useless virtue signaling. One trans girls every now and then isn't a threat
A guy is banned from playing with women if he's shorter... Women's sports must be a dumbass rule then...
It's your rule, my dude. I'm telling you why it's ridiculous
Yes, the WNBA shouldn't exist because sports are entertainment and if your entertainment doesn't make a profit then it effectively doesn't exist in a normal economy. It's not like the WNBA just started and is taking losses because it's new. "Dinosaurs WNBA had their shot, and nature selected them for extinction."
Yeah, super getting the feeling that you're backing these bans to protect women's sport
Stop with the disingenuous argument. This is literally the final time I'm gonna say it.
No. Keep crying about it. A ban's a ban, even if you like it
Where does it say doctors have to follow a guideline?
State agencies have to follow state guidelines

The Missouri law actually bans it because it's a law, not a guideline. I don't have a problem with it as long as it stays for just kids because it's a good rule to not have kids undergoing permanent and completely elective procedures regardless of what it is for. That's a good rule for adults too but adults are allowed to make those kind of decisions.
Lmao, and yet it's only this specific issue getting these bans, regardless of the fact that most doctors are saying these bans do more harm than good. It's never circumcision or intersex surgery on infants
 
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Terminal Blue

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It's never circumcision or intersex surgery on infants
I'm going to add to this.

Surgery on intersexed children still happens in the United States. It is less common than it used to be, but is still very common for doctors to refer the parents of intersexed children to a surgeon, who will naturally "recommended" that they pay large sums of money for unnecessary and highly risky surgical procedures in order to avoid social and psychological problems later. These can include procedures like clitoral reduction, in which part of the clitoris is surgically removed and which can potentially lead to chronic pain, nerve damage or visible scars. In extreme cases it can mean things like gonadectomies, in which the gonads are removed requiring a child to have lifelong hormone replacement therapy to avoid the serious medical complications associated with hypogonadism (bolding that one for emphasis). There's also hypospadias surgery, where the surgeon closes up a child's original urethra and creates a new one using skin grafts. This is very important because it allows a child assigned as male to pee while standing up, and thus avoid the psychological devastation of not being able to use a urinal.

There are adults living in the US right now who are intersexed, and who have had genital altering surgery performed on them as infants without their consent, and who do not know about it. Sometimes their doctors are deliberately concealing their medical records, either to avoid responsibility or out of a mistaken belief that this represents best practice. Some of them are taking HRT and have never been given an honest answer as to why.

Children born with atypical sex characteristics are more common than children showing clear signs of gender dysphoria before or during early puberty, and yet there has barely been any political will to clarify their rights in regard to medical treatment. Lawmakers have been content to leave the decision to the medical profession, leading to an inconsistent and piecemeal standard of care which is often completely out of line with the actual evidence - that outcomes for intersexed children who have surgery are not demonstrably better, and that many adults experience psychological harm upon finding out that these surgeries were performed on them without their consent.

When conservatives are trying to argue against the existence of gender identity, it's pretty likely that someone will bring up David Raimer. David Raimer was not technically born intersexed, but he wasn't part of some experiment to try and force a kid to transition, he was part of a program aimed at treating intersexed children, and which went on to set the standard for the treatment of intersexed children. What happened to him happened to thousands and thousands of other children, and to some extent continues to happen to this day (up to and including many of the more disturbing aspects of that case, such as children having their genitals regularly photographed or examined and facing obvious stigmatization from medical professionals), while conservatives politely ignore it and wring their hands about the fear that some extremely rare child who experiences painful gender dysphoria might not go through puberty in the right way.

But I'm being disingenuous here because there isn't really a contradiction. Conservatives care about trans children because trans children express a will or preference to live in a way that conservatives consider abnormal, and thus need to be punished or denied. Intersexed children are being forced to conform to what conservatives consider normal without their consent and often retrospectively against their own will. What's really important here is the principle that a child should have no rights or control over the functioning of their own body, and should be forced to live in the way conservatives want regardless of the cost to their own happiness.
 
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