"Vaccines don't save lives"

[Kiwi the Tortoise]

I love this thread :-D

Now where do I begin?

1. Vaccines can lead to death?
The answer is, yes. Most vaccines are made from dead or just fragments of dead virus mixed with agents to stabilize them. In rare cases however, the injection can lead to e.g. allergic reactions and cause death. Some vaccines are consist of living virus in a severly weakened state which could lead to an actual outbreak (especially if the patients immune system is deficent) and thus death. However, as cruel as it may sound, it boils down to numbers. If of 100.000 vaccinated people 2 die due to the injection, it is still better than 200+ deaths resulting from an epidemic.

2. There is nasty stuff in them
Everything is poisonous, it is just a matter of dosis
Even the "healthiest" vitamin will kill you if you overdose and even tab-water contains some traces of "nasty stuff" (even the radioactive kinds)

3. They cause cancer?
Even IF they would be the cause, it is again a matter of numbers. If of 100.000 people, five die of cancer (some others might have survived the cancer since it can be treated) it is still better than 200+ deaths by an outbreak.

4. What is cancer anyway?
Cancer is caused by a mutation within an individual cells DNA resulting in the disruption of the cells apoptosis-mechanism. Apoptosis causes the cell to suicide if anything within it's metabolism is out of the ordinary, thus cells without this mechanism are basically immortal and will spread with each cell-division without dying.

5. A few potential causes of cancer
1. Oncogene substances: Lots of stuff can cause cancer, in general everything that is known to interact with DNA (e.g. Ethidiumbromide) in many cases it is not known however how/if these substances can actually e.g. pass through skin/enter cells or reach your DNA.
2. Radiation: This can actually reach your DNA. UV-light (Sunshine!) also fits into this category.
3. Yourself: Everytime your cells split a copy of your DNA is made and while we have a powerful proof-reading mechanism, it can and will make mistakes over the years. This accumulation of mutations is commonly known as aging ;-)
These can lead to cancer.

The problem: There is no way to tell what actually caused what case of cancer.

6. Why do we have more cancer cases now?
Because we know what cancer is, learned how to diagnose it and generally got better in doing so.
I doubt that there are more cancer cases. Even hundereds of years ago people had cancer, but didn't know what is was or how to diagnose it. The cancer rates where most likely lower 1000 years ago however the life expectency was much lower as well, thus people tended to die of other causes before cancer got them.

 

[Kathinka]

i really wish everyone on the vaccines-are-bad side would get smallpox, i really really do..

 

[Jimmy Sylvers]

My family believes all this stuff. I don't. I have never been vaccinated, never had anything worse than chicken pox, but I am well aware of the herd immunity effect.

I know vaccines have some minor risks but they are nothing compared to whole communities being unvaccinated. The polio virus had some complications, but the technology has come a long way since then. There are some other reactions that people have to vaccines but these are so rare that is is largely insignificant compared to the benefits of having a vaccinated population.

Most of the fear about vaccines comes from a misunderstanding, sometimes with a strong will to maintain ignorance. The mercury based compound that was used in vaccines is no longer used, not that mercury has a link to autism anyway.

As far as the behavioral 'disorders' that are diagnosed, none of them have specific symptoms an are just judgments based on what is considered normal. So in the past when one might have had an energetic kid, they were just energetic but now they have to be diagnosed with something otherwise the parents will not be satisfied. that is how we end up with every second person apparently being ADHD or ADD. And even if these are real disorders have a much stronger link to genetics than vaccines. Males are more commonly diagnosed and in some families you have ADHD being diagnosed on both vaccinated and unvaccinated siblings.

 

[Smeatza]

Oh, Oh, I wanna play too:

"If you drugged someone and cut them open and run various screws through their bones, you'd be labeled a psychopath and a maniac. So why should it be legal for doctors to do that?"

"If you were to acquire a source of high-energy radiation and used that to shine through someone you'd be sued for causing bodily harm and being a supervillain. So why is it ok for doctors to do so?"

"If you were to give someone mind-altering substances, you'd be a drug-dealer, so why should doctors be allowed to do so?"

"If you fixated someone, drilled through their skull whilst they are still awake, opened the skull using an electric saw and rummaged around in their brain using a robot and laser, you'd be considered a "SAW-style" villain, so why should doctors be allowed to do so?"

My turn, my turn.
"If you stuck your arm half way up a woman and pulled out a baby you'd be labeled a pervert magician. So why should it be legal for doctors to do that?"

OT: It's a damned shame when people deny their kids vaccines.
If you want to infect yourself with a horrible disease then feel free, but don't force your children to do so.

 

[Uncreation]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

We're also getting more efficient at detecting illness though so it's natural to see a spike.

Cancer is going up though but that's what makes it a mystery, nobody really knows for certain why it's happening. I tend to think it's because of all that packaged food nonsense, the fact that we keep getting less 'food' in our food and more chemicals with longer names that I can count, just because it makes production cheaper.
But who can say for sure.

This. If i had a million dollars, i would be willing to bet all of it, that the greatest reason behind the increase in cancer cases is the continually deteriorating quallity of food. The more pesticides, artificial fertilizers, antibiotics, prezervatives, and other stuff like that that ends up in our food, the more chemicals enter our bodies, and, the more cancer cases appear.

 

[newwiseman]

Most people don't even know the name Jonas Salk or why he is a hero. They're all to busy chasing shadows and convincing themselves that some greedy corporations puppet has their best interest at heart instead of their real interests bottom line.

 

[RipRoaringWaterfowl]

2013 and some people think vaccines don't work?

Small Pox would like to say hello.

Fucking blows my mind

Of course, smallpox can't say hello.

Smallpox is too busy being dead. 'Cause worldwide vaccinations. ;D

 

[Ren3004]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

A lot of that is that some things work too well. Allergies in general happen when a body's immune system sees something harmless as a threat, and reacts against it triggering normal defenses against disease. A usual culprit is that the person wasn't exposed to much when they're young, and so the body wasn't trained to detect it as normal. Our houses are too clean, basically.

We're also getting great medical care when we're young. Go look up statistics of baby survival (and survival of the mom as well if you're interested) and you'll see a dramatic increase since then. It looks like people have been getting worse recently, but realistically, we've been able to save more from immediate death, though not always terribly successful at getting them back to full strength.

Part of what makes cancer more frequent now is more awareness. We're better at spotting it. We're also better at keeping people alive long enough that cancer gets more chances to be seen. It's sad to say, but from an evolutionary sense, we weren't really tested against surviving against cancer. People just didn't live long enough for it to be a big threat.

Also, the appearance of cancer is basically a "one-in-a-billion" chance that happens when all the safety measures your cells have against DNA damage fail. As we live longer and are exposed to more carcinogens, we increase the number of DNA errors that happen and obviously that increases the likelihood that one of them will "get through" and cause cancer.

So yes, vaccines help cause cancer, in the same way that saving people who have heart attacks cause cancer... It helps us live longer. /sarcasm

 

[Timmey]

Vaccines are incredibly important and should be given to all children. They save lives and help us rid the world of dangerous diseases, can't really see the argument against them.

 

[AngelOfBlueRoses]

Well, the people that sell cures for disease have it in their interest for people to be sick so they can make money selling you the cure. Simple supply & demand.

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

That picture is just silly, but what I want to address, however, is your own statement. There aren't cures for viruses. Vaccines aren't cures. They're pre-emptive. It's hard to make money on a pediatric vaccine compared to such drugs like anti-cholesterol or anti-depressants. Vaccinations make up only about 2% of what the company's make.

 

[gezodiac]

Reading into what Bachmann said is a bad idea. It was proven and backed up by her campaign workers when she ran for presidency that she read a headline and that was it she knew enough of the subject, where the actual article would then disprove whatever she would say on stage.

Anyways, vaccinations and those against it are most likely religious, or just afraid of science.

And I think I saw someone mention that more illnesses are occurring that need protecting from, ie peanut allergies etc.

Well in truth by natures law many of us should be dead, science it making it so we forego natural selection and live through disabilities.

 

[Vareoth]

I don't think that vaccines are that evil. They are actually quite simple as explained by some of you already. As long as they are properly tested there is not much that could go wrong. I'd rather take my chances with a vaccine than with some asshole disease.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

I blame violent video games/sedentary lifestyle/liberals/immigrants/extraterrestrials.

 

[Serinanth]

I love this thread :-D

If of 100.000 vaccinated people 2 die due to the injection
If of 100.000 people, five die of cancer

Snip

Don't ever tell me the odds!

The odds you gave are pretty bad, a 2 in 100 chance to die and 5 in 100 to get cancer? No thanks!

I do agree with the quantities argument, the amount of mercury in a shark steak is greater than that of the mercury additives in the vaccines.

While I have all my vaccines, my mom became very anti vaccine when my little sister was born, (I'm 33 shes 16) so the whole autism scandal was happening right around when she was born. And then they started pushing the gardasil and she freaked out even more. I have tried to have a rational conversation with her about vaccines and she wont listen at all. Thankfully the schools require the kids to get MMR, not sure about the others. I think the sheer number of and the age at which they are administered also bothered her.

Back then, everyone believed everything on the internet to be true.

 

[Dangit2019]

Well, the people that sell cures for disease have it in their interest for people to be sick so they can make money selling you the cure. Simple supply & demand.

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

I love how "VIRUSES", "INJECTED", "ARRESTED", "JAIL", and "WHY" are written in big menacing text.

I guess they forgot to mention that the viruses are dead, and the whole fucking point of them being in there is too pass harmlessly through the body so that the antibodies will be able to procure a formidable defense against them in the case of infection. But that's actual facts instead of BIG MENACING TEXT AND HYPERBOLIC STATEMENTS BY SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO SPELL "PHOSPHATE", and my sentiment just can't compare.

Also, why risk that being inside you? I'll tell you why in the form a fun little game: I want you to find a smallpox victim in your area.

Spoiler: hintsies

THERE ISN'T ONE. AND THERE'S A REASON FOR THAT.

 

[Thedutchjelle]

We have a measles outbreak now in the Netherlands despite out national vaccination program. Where this outbreak is located? In our so-called "Bible Belt", where the strict Christians live that refuse medical aid because "it's against the will of God".
There is also a new phenomena where mothers don't vaccinate their kids but hold parties when one of them becomes sick so their children can all get it "the normal way". FFS, the body doesn't care if it was a vaccine or the real thing to develop immunity - if it did, the vaccine wouldn't work. Except the real thing can kills 0.1% of the infected.

Sadly, I'm seeing more and more people claiming that vaccines are teh evulz and it's all part of a grand conspiracy of some kind. Obviously most of these people have zero background in science and barely comprehend how they work. As a student in biomedical sciences this pisses me off.

An expert virologist had a talk at one of our lectures a while ago, discussing the HPV vaccine for young girls to prevent uterus cancer. The turn-up for the vaccination was very low because of the false information that was circulating, that you could die/become paralyzed from it.

 

[Unia]

Feline leukemia vaccine? Wait, you can have a vaccine against cancer?

Something also interesting to note is that the thing a lot of people are concerned about are adjuvants (chemical additives to vaccines). Animal vaccines don't typically contain adjuvants (especially feline ones), while humans do. Most vaccines for animals also don't tend to contain mercury or mercury products either. Some food for thought.

Yup, don't know if the fuss over Pandemrix ever got publicity across the Atlantic. In Europe the link between a preservative and onset of narcolepsy was proven in adolescents and children. Any idea why animal vaccines don't have these adjuvants?

 

[J Tyran]

Well, the people that sell cures for disease have it in their interest for people to be sick so they can make money selling you the cure. Simple supply & demand.

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

Totally, why do we use all fill our bodies with these dangerous chemicals?

People die from DHMO all the time, did you know this stuff can actually corrode hardened steel into dust? If a human injests a certain amount their brain swells up so much it can kill.

 

[Quaxar]

Feline leukemia vaccine? Wait, you can have a vaccine against cancer?

If it's caused by virus infections sure. Human cervical cancer is mainly caused by Human papillomavirus and pre-infection vaccination with Cervarix or Gardasil can cut your cervical cancer chance by over 90% for the next five years. Which is... pretty good if you can afford it.

 

[funkyjiveturkey]

The claim isn't that vaccines don't save lives -- okay, some people do say that, obviously -- it's the claim that vaccines are bad or inherently unnatural. I think it's a fear that remains after the Autism Trials.

The autism omnibus trails, though it was thrown out of court for having no evidence that a mercury-based preservative in a vaccine caused autism (or that any case of mercury caused any type of autism), are entirely to blame, because people believe what they want to believe, especially if they don't understand what they believe.

It's a big fear of the magic word 'mercury', and that has spread to vaccines in general. Don't waste your time thinking about it. However, feel free to read up on the Autism Trials on Wikipedia, get educated and all the like.

Yeah, I heard about all that autism business. Pretty sure I first heard about it when Penn and Teller did an entire show debunking that claim.
Also I checked, it was Michelle Bachmann that said vaccines gave her kid autism, not Palin. Not like that's much better though, replacing one crazy with another.

It's kind of what I meant to say, that vaccines cause more illness than they save.

a woman like Michelle Bachmann has no right saying anything of the sort. If her kids are having autistic symptoms (social awkwardness, failure to comprehend social situations, maybe lagging in the classroom) it probably has a lot less to do with vaccines and more the fact that their mother is Michelle Bachmann! why is she allowed to keep doing and saying things!?

Jenny McCarthy was also a huge activist against vaccines after she claimed that vaccines "gave" her kid autism. I love how so many people who talk about autism really have no idea what it is or how one gets it.