"Vaccines don't save lives"

[funksobeefy]

didnt we beet small pox with vaccines?

off topic: you know whats bullshit? adds about dish network when talking about the importance of vaccines on our children. fuck you captcha

 

[MrHide-Patten]

I say when the next megavirus comes in, Darwinism will do it's job and the moronic will get what's coming to them... flaky puss boils.

 

[MrMrAwesom]

Well, the people that sell cures for disease have it in their interest for people to be sick so they can make money selling you the cure. Simple supply & demand.

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

 

[OneCatch]

Well, the people that sell cures for disease have it in their interest for people to be sick so they can make money selling you the cure. Simple supply & demand.

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

That picture is partly true, but the devil is in the detail - essentially the detail that those chemicals (if present at all) are in absurdly small quantities, or as part of organic compounds.

Whoever wrote that poster is basically doing an appeal to emotion rather than anything grounded. It's like me doing this:

--------------

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

Spoiler: Because you don't want to end up like this

Spoiler: Or this

--------------

Incidentally, the second is a picture of one of the last people to ever suffer from smallpox, because of the vaccination program that's probably saved tens of millions of lives.
Yes, pharmaceutical companies are sometimes corrupt [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Pharma], but to decide not to get vaccines that have been extremely thoroughly tested all over the world because they have scary sounding ingredients is ridiculous.

 

[Yopaz]

So maybe... something is very wrong.

And correlation does not imply causation, as we all know. Although, I don't know how good is saying that as we don't even have correlation.

There are more tsunamis now than there were 300 years ago. There's also a decreace in number of pirates. Pirates decreace the number of tsunamis. Yeah, I agree with you.

OT: I kinda understand it. It's so easy to soak up hysteria even when faced with facts. We fear things because someone makes it sound scary. This is pretty much the same as dihydrogenmonoxide fear. There might be a risk when it comes to vaccines, but there is a certain risk when it comes to avoiding vaccines. However conspiracy theories are easier to believe than assurances from doctors who might have been paid off by the pharmaceutical companies or from the pharmaceuticak companies themselves.

Now... the doctor who did say it could lead to autism was in fact paid to say this and has as far as I know lost his licence to practice medicine.

 

[ashertaz]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

One of the reason kids seem to be more "defective" today and also one of the reasons cancer numbers seem to increase is due to evolution in technology - basically, we can diagnose people better, today. I'm not saying there might not be an increase (i have no figures for that), just saying that if doctors find more cases doesn't necessarily mean that there are more cases now than before, it just means that they are finding (diagnosing) more cases than they did, say, 10 years ago. Same with autism ( as the definition for autism expanded, more people fit in that category, thus people considered as suffering from autism increased). Correlation does not mean causation 100% of the time.
Also , the fact that you never used to hear about some kind of allergy before doesn't mean that there no such cases or that they increased in number in recent years. Again, it means more cases are correctly diagnosed and reported. In olden days such allergy or deaths due to it could have been chucked to a bee venom allergy and reported as such.

 

[Yopaz]

Well, the people that sell cures for disease have it in their interest for people to be sick so they can make money selling you the cure. Simple supply & demand.

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

Honestly look at that picture. He can't even spell the name of the chemicals properly he's clearly not the best person to judge the danger of them. Now there are some vaccines which use thiomersal which contains a little mercury, but this is far from all and several pharmaceutical companies are phasing out the usage of it in vaccines.

Vaccines contain dead bacteria ornon-functional viruses because this will prevent the antigen to your immune system and make it produce antibodies. If the actual virus or bacteria enters your system later your immune system is able to counter it faster. The reasoning that vaccines are bad because they contain viruses is kinda like saying meat is dangerous because a cow might kick us to death. The virus in the vaccine has been treated in ways to make it unable to reproduce.

Now let's weigh the risks.

Smallpox had a mortality rate of 30%. Now that doesn't exist outside of labs.

Polio cause permanent muscle weakness when the weakness strikes. Vaccines prevent that completely.

Tuberculosis is listed as the disease that kill the thir most people each year. Because of vaccines it's not considered a threat here anymore.

Why risk vaccines? Because as much hysteria there is around them there is rarely any proven connection between vaccines and serious disease. There is a connection between serious diseases (that can be prevented with vaccines) and death though.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Well, the people that sell cures for disease have it in their interest for people to be sick so they can make money selling you the cure. Simple supply & demand.

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

Well, the people that sell cures for disease have it in their interest for people to be sick so they can make money selling you the cure. Simple supply & demand.

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

Oh, Oh, I wanna play too:

"If you drugged someone and cut them open and run various screws through their bones, you'd be labeled a psychopath and a maniac. So why should it be legal for doctors to do that?"

"If you were to acquire a source of high-energy radiation and used that to shine through someone you'd be sued for causing bodily harm and being a supervillain. So why is it ok for doctors to do so?"

"If you were to give someone mind-altering substances, you'd be a drug-dealer, so why should doctors be allowed to do so?"

"If you fixated someone, drilled through their skull whilst they are still awake, opened the skull using an electric saw and rummaged around in their brain using a robot and laser, you'd be considered a "SAW-style" villain, so why should doctors be allowed to do so?"

 

[Nadia Castle]

People just have to believe that things are getting worse for some specific reason to make themselves feel better. The worlds population has grown to a ridiculous level, and the general population has now aged to the point that dying of cancer is more common place, but that is just too simple and answer for most. There has to be some evil higher power causing it, so they blame the governments, big pharma, chemicals in water, anything other than 'life is horrible'.

 

[Quaxar]

Cancer is caused by a mutated Oncogene that makes cells divide before they have developed to perform their function, thus causing a runaway division of cells that require nourishment but serve no function. This is what causes 100% of ALL Cancer. This has been known since the mid-80's. This isn't a secret.

Just a quick note. You're not wrong but you could be more right. An Oncogene is always mutated, if it's working normally it's called a Proto-Oncogene. Which is a technicality but, you know...
A Proto-Oncogene mutation alone is also mostly harmless because it's only part of a whole mutation chain, even more important are Tumor Suppressor Gene mutations, because they regulate all the division cycle checkpoints and controlled cell death (apoptosis) for when a check fails, p53 is especially critical since it alone triggers apoptosis to get rid of bad mutations.

But yeah, you don't really need to know that as a computer person I just thought I might mention it for your possible enjoyment.

 

[Kiwi the Tortoise]

I love this thread :-D

Now where do I begin?

1. Vaccines can lead to death?
The answer is, yes. Most vaccines are made from dead or just fragments of dead virus mixed with agents to stabilize them. In rare cases however, the injection can lead to e.g. allergic reactions and cause death. Some vaccines are consist of living virus in a severly weakened state which could lead to an actual outbreak (especially if the patients immune system is deficent) and thus death. However, as cruel as it may sound, it boils down to numbers. If of 100.000 vaccinated people 2 die due to the injection, it is still better than 200+ deaths resulting from an epidemic.

2. There is nasty stuff in them
Everything is poisonous, it is just a matter of dosis
Even the "healthiest" vitamin will kill you if you overdose and even tab-water contains some traces of "nasty stuff" (even the radioactive kinds)

3. They cause cancer?
Even IF they would be the cause, it is again a matter of numbers. If of 100.000 people, five die of cancer (some others might have survived the cancer since it can be treated) it is still better than 200+ deaths by an outbreak.

4. What is cancer anyway?
Cancer is caused by a mutation within an individual cells DNA resulting in the disruption of the cells apoptosis-mechanism. Apoptosis causes the cell to suicide if anything within it's metabolism is out of the ordinary, thus cells without this mechanism are basically immortal and will spread with each cell-division without dying.

5. A few potential causes of cancer
1. Oncogene substances: Lots of stuff can cause cancer, in general everything that is known to interact with DNA (e.g. Ethidiumbromide) in many cases it is not known however how/if these substances can actually e.g. pass through skin/enter cells or reach your DNA.
2. Radiation: This can actually reach your DNA. UV-light (Sunshine!) also fits into this category.
3. Yourself: Everytime your cells split a copy of your DNA is made and while we have a powerful proof-reading mechanism, it can and will make mistakes over the years. This accumulation of mutations is commonly known as aging ;-)
These can lead to cancer.

The problem: There is no way to tell what actually caused what case of cancer.

6. Why do we have more cancer cases now?
Because we know what cancer is, learned how to diagnose it and generally got better in doing so.
I doubt that there are more cancer cases. Even hundereds of years ago people had cancer, but didn't know what is was or how to diagnose it. The cancer rates where most likely lower 1000 years ago however the life expectency was much lower as well, thus people tended to die of other causes before cancer got them.

 

[Kathinka]

i really wish everyone on the vaccines-are-bad side would get smallpox, i really really do..

 

[Jimmy Sylvers]

My family believes all this stuff. I don't. I have never been vaccinated, never had anything worse than chicken pox, but I am well aware of the herd immunity effect.

I know vaccines have some minor risks but they are nothing compared to whole communities being unvaccinated. The polio virus had some complications, but the technology has come a long way since then. There are some other reactions that people have to vaccines but these are so rare that is is largely insignificant compared to the benefits of having a vaccinated population.

Most of the fear about vaccines comes from a misunderstanding, sometimes with a strong will to maintain ignorance. The mercury based compound that was used in vaccines is no longer used, not that mercury has a link to autism anyway.

As far as the behavioral 'disorders' that are diagnosed, none of them have specific symptoms an are just judgments based on what is considered normal. So in the past when one might have had an energetic kid, they were just energetic but now they have to be diagnosed with something otherwise the parents will not be satisfied. that is how we end up with every second person apparently being ADHD or ADD. And even if these are real disorders have a much stronger link to genetics than vaccines. Males are more commonly diagnosed and in some families you have ADHD being diagnosed on both vaccinated and unvaccinated siblings.

 

[Smeatza]

Oh, Oh, I wanna play too:

"If you drugged someone and cut them open and run various screws through their bones, you'd be labeled a psychopath and a maniac. So why should it be legal for doctors to do that?"

"If you were to acquire a source of high-energy radiation and used that to shine through someone you'd be sued for causing bodily harm and being a supervillain. So why is it ok for doctors to do so?"

"If you were to give someone mind-altering substances, you'd be a drug-dealer, so why should doctors be allowed to do so?"

"If you fixated someone, drilled through their skull whilst they are still awake, opened the skull using an electric saw and rummaged around in their brain using a robot and laser, you'd be considered a "SAW-style" villain, so why should doctors be allowed to do so?"

My turn, my turn.
"If you stuck your arm half way up a woman and pulled out a baby you'd be labeled a pervert magician. So why should it be legal for doctors to do that?"

OT: It's a damned shame when people deny their kids vaccines.
If you want to infect yourself with a horrible disease then feel free, but don't force your children to do so.

 

[Uncreation]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

We're also getting more efficient at detecting illness though so it's natural to see a spike.

Cancer is going up though but that's what makes it a mystery, nobody really knows for certain why it's happening. I tend to think it's because of all that packaged food nonsense, the fact that we keep getting less 'food' in our food and more chemicals with longer names that I can count, just because it makes production cheaper.
But who can say for sure.

This. If i had a million dollars, i would be willing to bet all of it, that the greatest reason behind the increase in cancer cases is the continually deteriorating quallity of food. The more pesticides, artificial fertilizers, antibiotics, prezervatives, and other stuff like that that ends up in our food, the more chemicals enter our bodies, and, the more cancer cases appear.

 

[newwiseman]

Most people don't even know the name Jonas Salk or why he is a hero. They're all to busy chasing shadows and convincing themselves that some greedy corporations puppet has their best interest at heart instead of their real interests bottom line.

 

[RipRoaringWaterfowl]

2013 and some people think vaccines don't work?

Small Pox would like to say hello.

Fucking blows my mind

Of course, smallpox can't say hello.

Smallpox is too busy being dead. 'Cause worldwide vaccinations. ;D

 

[Ren3004]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

A lot of that is that some things work too well. Allergies in general happen when a body's immune system sees something harmless as a threat, and reacts against it triggering normal defenses against disease. A usual culprit is that the person wasn't exposed to much when they're young, and so the body wasn't trained to detect it as normal. Our houses are too clean, basically.

We're also getting great medical care when we're young. Go look up statistics of baby survival (and survival of the mom as well if you're interested) and you'll see a dramatic increase since then. It looks like people have been getting worse recently, but realistically, we've been able to save more from immediate death, though not always terribly successful at getting them back to full strength.

Part of what makes cancer more frequent now is more awareness. We're better at spotting it. We're also better at keeping people alive long enough that cancer gets more chances to be seen. It's sad to say, but from an evolutionary sense, we weren't really tested against surviving against cancer. People just didn't live long enough for it to be a big threat.

Also, the appearance of cancer is basically a "one-in-a-billion" chance that happens when all the safety measures your cells have against DNA damage fail. As we live longer and are exposed to more carcinogens, we increase the number of DNA errors that happen and obviously that increases the likelihood that one of them will "get through" and cause cancer.

So yes, vaccines help cause cancer, in the same way that saving people who have heart attacks cause cancer... It helps us live longer. /sarcasm

 

[Timmey]

Vaccines are incredibly important and should be given to all children. They save lives and help us rid the world of dangerous diseases, can't really see the argument against them.

 

[AngelOfBlueRoses]

Well, the people that sell cures for disease have it in their interest for people to be sick so they can make money selling you the cure. Simple supply & demand.

I mean... even if that's not true, why even risk that being inside you?

That picture is just silly, but what I want to address, however, is your own statement. There aren't cures for viruses. Vaccines aren't cures. They're pre-emptive. It's hard to make money on a pediatric vaccine compared to such drugs like anti-cholesterol or anti-depressants. Vaccinations make up only about 2% of what the company's make.