"Vaccines don't save lives"

[uzo]

These vaccine discussions give me the shits on a scale nothing else does. I mean nothing.

Statements about an increase in cancer, or a decrease in fertility, or an increase in impotence as opposed to the previous generation does not equal evidence that vaccines are the spawn of the devil. It's all tenuous anecdotal links that can quite easily Occam-style be explained by the more obvious cause rather than 'vaccines bad!' Those three things I've listed up there can be DIRECTLY traced to increasing life expectancy and health in the first world - heart disease is killing fewer, but cancer is killing more. Women are delaying childbirth for economic reasons. Men are living well past retirement and the ol' willy ain't as functional as it would have been when they died in earlier generations.

Now look back just a hundred years.

World War I, 1915-1919, 17 million military & civilian deaths. Remember as the 'Great War' at the time, something that people could not imagine being worse. Entire generations of young men being thrown into an Imperial meat grinder.

The Spanish Flu, 1918-1920. They aren't even sure how many poor bastards died. However, even the lowest estimates put it at MORE THAN DOUBLE the Great War's kill rating in half the time, the higher estimates put it at closer to SIX TIMES. Another fun fact is that of the 17 million killed in the war, about 30% of that were from diseases including the Spanish Flu. The great horror of the Spanish Flu was that it killed the healthy - children and elderly, whose immune systems were weaker, paradoxically had a higher survival rate. Healthy young adults died in their millions because their body fought back so intensely it killed them - almost like an extreme allergy. THE STRONG & HEALTHY DIED, so you sitting there on your computer thinking 'ha I never get sick I don't care' need to fucking realise that there are viruses that will use that 'strength' against you.

Now ... I'm not saying a vaccine would have saved anyone from the Spanish Flu. I'm trying to illustrate that there is shit out there far far worse than the worst conflicts we humans can inflict upon ourselves, and fuckers arguing against vaccines need to consider that their great-grandparents almost certainly lost at least one sibling to disease in childhood. Many of those diseases are controlled by vaccines these days.

Enjoy your polio motherfuckers.

 

[Eddie the head]

Except we have causation, the effects of age on cancer vulnerability are very well documented.

So correlation does not equal causation unless it suits you because you say so. Cancer is up? Must just be old people. *shrugs*. Alright then.

The word he used was "causation" not correlation. If you are going to accuse some of a fallacy at least make sure they did it. By all means ask for the proof, but if he clams there is a causation. It's not a correlation equals causation fallacy.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Now look back just a hundred years.

World War I, 1915-1919, 17 million military & civilian deaths. Remember as the 'Great War' at the time, something that people could not imagine being worse. Entire generations of young men being thrown into an Imperial meat grinder.

The Spanish Flu, 1918-1920. They aren't even sure how many poor bastards died. However, even the lowest estimates put it at MORE THAN DOUBLE the Great War's kill rating in half the time, the higher estimates put it at closer to SIX TIMES. Another fun fact is that of the 17 million killed in the war, about 30% of that were from diseases including the Spanish Flu. The great horror of the Spanish Flu was that it killed the healthy - children and elderly, whose immune systems were weaker, paradoxically had a higher survival rate. Healthy young adults died in their millions because their body fought back so intensely it killed them - almost like an extreme allergy. THE STRONG & HEALTHY DIED, so you sitting there on your computer thinking 'ha I never get sick I don't care' need to fucking realise that there are viruses that will use that 'strength' against you.

Now ... I'm not saying a vaccine would have saved anyone from the Spanish Flu. I'm trying to illustrate that there is shit out there far far worse than the worst conflicts we humans can inflict upon ourselves, and fuckers arguing against vaccines need to consider that their great-grandparents almost certainly lost at least one sibling to disease in childhood. Many of those diseases are controlled by vaccines these days.

Enjoy your polio motherfuckers.

While that is true, IIRC, WW1 was the cause of the flu outbreak being as bad as it was, food and other essentials being rationed and so on.

But in general, yeah, the bullshit about vaccines really pisses me off.

 

[Snotnarok]

Yes some people say it's the cause of the increase in autism, when you can easily find out the reason for the 'increase' is the definition of autism has been broadened greatly absorbing other diagnosis. So these strange people feel it makes more sense to listen to conspiracy sites or sites that have no one with credible PHDs or what not.

Capcha: Good for nothing.

 

[xDarc]

But in general, yeah, the bullshit about vaccines really pisses me off.

Did you watch the video I posted? It's an interview with one of the scientists who made more vaccines than anyone else on earth concerned about undetected cancer causing viruses in the vaccines at Merck, the company he worked for. The problem with vaccines is what else finds their way into them that nobody bothers do serious research on. One of the polio vaccines was recalled over this in 1961.

How do you know today's vaccines are safe? You don't.

 

[fletch_talon]

If you are going to accuse some of a fallacy at least make sure they did it.

He did:

Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)

Actually, he didn't:

Except we have causation, the effects of age on cancer vulnerability are very well documented.

Read the bold. It says in not so many words that research has been done and has shown that there is (as definite as science can be on such things) causation. The fact that there is correlation is not the reason he is arguing that there is causation. He argues that there is causation because people have put time and money into proving that there is.

 

[Eddie the head]

If you are going to accuse some of a fallacy at least make sure they did it.

He did:

Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)

But

Except we have causation, the effects of age on cancer vulnerability are very well documented.

Is what you where responding to. Ask for for this proof, but he didn't make that fallacy. A fallacy is a leap in logical thinking he stated that he dose have evidence to support this. A causation.

Also quit quote mining.

 

[xDarc]

If you are going to accuse some of a fallacy at least make sure they did it.

He did:

Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)

Actually, he didn't:

Except we have causation, the effects of age on cancer vulnerability are very well documented.

Read the bold.

He did because what you bolded is irrelevant. Cancer rates are up, across the board, amongst all age groups. To say that cancer is up because people are living longer is absolutely implying correlation/causation. The group think here is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[xDarc]

Also quit quote mining.

How about you read the thread and quit jumping on my back with everyone else?

 

[Woodsey]

but nobody is getting hurt if you think everything just popped into existence. But with vaccines, peoples lives are actually at stake. I can't imagine how many children might have died because of these nut-jobs.

Pretty sure ingrained ignorance is bad for everyone's future, even if it doesn't take an obvious physical effect.

 

[fletch_talon]

He did because what you bolded is irrelevant. Cancer rates are up, across the board, amongst all age groups. To say that cancer is up because people are living longer is absolutely implying correlation/causation. The group think here is absolutely ridiculous.

The part I've bolded there is irrelevant to what your responding to actually.
If that's your argument, then argue that and provide your proof.

To get back on the topic that we (that is, you, myself and Eddie) were discussing: the fact remains that JazzJack did not make a correlation = causation fallacy because he claims that there is evidence beyond the correlation which shows that there is causation.

 

[Xanadu84]

There's a lot of ground between "vaccines don't do anything and cause all of the autism" and "vaccines save everybody and have never hurt anyone." This is one of those debates that have been going on a while where the most vocal participants are firmly entrenched on one side or the other. I think vaccines are great and there are also dangers associated with them.

To be fair, there is the risk of a false dichotomy here. If "Vaccines don't do anything/cause all the autism" is a 100, and "Vaccines save everyone and never hurt anyone" was a 1, then yes, its a shame that everyone chooses either 100 or 1. But the truth of the matter is that there is a reasonable discussion to be had over whether or not the reality of the situation is as low as 1, or as high as 3. You start getting into people arguing for a 4 or 5, and you start dealing with people who are just factually wrong.

 

[EvilRoy]

But in general, yeah, the bullshit about vaccines really pisses me off.

Did you watch the video I posted? It's an interview with one of the scientists who made more vaccines than anyone else on earth concerned about undetected cancer causing viruses in the vaccines at Merck, the company he worked for. The problem with vaccines is what else finds their way into them that nobody bothers do serious research on. One of the polio vaccines was recalled over this in 1961.

How do you know today's vaccines are safe? You don't.

Are you seriously attempting to reference a video that has clearly been edited in order to elicit the most hysterical response possible as a credible source?

As this interview is going on, in the background while I type this I actually started to recognize it. We listened to it during an ethics discussion during my masters program. This is an interview regarding the start point for aids, and links it to unethical business practices with regards to animal test subject aquisition, incubating and testing procedures. Oh, the instant they started to get to the pertinent parts of the interview where the failures in ethical practices were discussed we cut away. And back to a couple more quotes out of context. And away again.

 

[NiPah]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

We're living longer, getting better access to preventative testing, people with cancer are living much longer then before, and we have much better record keeping. Also on the notion of food allergies;

Probably half of the people who report that they have a food allergy don?t,

-Dr. Marc Riedl, assistant professor of clinical immunology and allergy at UCLA
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/health/the-rising-rate-of-food-allergies-2/1513/

For the love of all that is good, lets not connect vaccines to those scary closet shadows, we should actively pursue what the cause of these increased diagnoses are but don't tie it into vaccines until you know damn well they are the cause.

 

[Jedi-Hunter4]

Although I have criticized the NHS allot here in the UK, it is one of the perks of having a nationalized health service working on a budjet, they don't splash out on things unless it works, it's safe and will have a dramatic benefit for as many people as possible. They have no motive to give you something that does not work, non-profit ftw.

I've been vaccinated with all the usual stuff and I've not been struck down with a horrendous leathal illness, so I take it they are doing a decent job on the vaccination front.

You only have to have a very rudimentary knowledge of biology, essentially to the level of a 15 year old to understand how vaccines work, it's not even up for debate, vaccines work, how much benefit certain one's bring is another issue, but without doubt they work, any other opinion is essentially born out of ignorance.

It's not unusual for me to be reactive to vaccines, but even after collapsing not too long afterward on other vaccines, doctors respond with a resounding "meh". The ones I had the biggest reactions with were Hepatitis B and the one I mentioned first was MMR (measels, mumps, rubella), both are common vaccines to give children. Considering the reactions I get and the fact that no one seems to be giving a damn, you better fucking believe I'm upset.

Without trying to sound too un-empathetic, but whats even an hour of discomfort compared to getting Hepatitis B? That's probably where the lack of empathy of from the doctors is coming from.

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

Well, you can blame it on vaccines... or you could blame it on dozens of other factors.

Obesity, for instance. There is a big link between obesity and cancer.

In fact, I'd say that's MUCH more likely of a culprit than vaccines.

There's also the simple fact that people are living longer, Cancer never used to be a significant killer and has become more and more prevalent due to the simple fact that there are less things killing us these days, there are literally 10's of illnesses that even 75 years ago were out and out lethal that today can be remedied in simple or even routine operations or antibiotics.

It's not Cancer I'm worried about, Stroke and Heart disease. Compare the mortality rate of under 75's with Cancer and if you are like me you will be surprised how little publicity the dangers they pose get compared to Cancer. I was really shocked, even overall circulatory issues are the leading cause of death in the UK.

 

[Sectan]

Well one of the main spokespersons for some anti vaccine group said her child got autism from his vaccines. Only kicker is "He got over it" so that shows how credible it is.

I'd hate to see kids start getting polio, measles, mumps and all that shit. There's a reason we still use vaccines today. Because they work.

 

[Bluestorm83]

People believe all sorts of retarded things. And I don't mean spiritually or morally, I mean they believe stupid bullshit that has no basis in reality OR any moral significance. I mean, something like a Religion, even if its not "real" it can make you a better person. Not that stuff.

What I mean are things like:

"Let's go steal the magic!" During the riots against former Egyptian President Mubarak, looters broke into the national museum over there and ransacked countless Egyptian historical treasures, searching for "Magic Red Mercury." Wow. In the year 2012. MAGICAL RED MERCURY.
"Medical Science is inherently sinful; only God can cure a disease!" This is moronic. If only God can cure a disease, and Doctors routinely cure diseases, isn't it rather obvious that they have God's sanction and support? And is there any rule that you have to stop praying if you bring a sick person do a doctor? You do the prayer, Doctor does the medicine, don't see any conflict.
"The Political Party that disagrees with me is EVIL!" Really? It's not at all possible that you and they simply have different points of view? You REALLY think that they all get together and chuckle sinistery about keeping minorities oppressed (people believe this about both Republicans AND Democrats. If both parties are a shadowy cabal to keep minorities oppressed, then they're REALLY ineffective, when you consider the president's genetic heritage.) This isn't DC Comics, and people who disagree with you aren't the Legion of Doom.
"Eating Meat is Morally Wrong, and its my duty to tell you about it all the time!" Then why do we have forward facing eyes and canine teeth? We're built to be predators; means that when I get hungry, somethin' DEAD. You want to abstain, go right ahead, that's your right. I'm gonna go fry me up some Deer Cutlets.
"Men or Women are clearly the Dominant Gender!" I call simple bullshit on this one, since if you remove one of them, you also remove the other. This is like saying that Water would still be Water if it was only Hydrogen or only Oxygen.
"Dear Leader is a God on Earth!" Really, North Korea? Is that why your people live in squalor while in America, even the poorest of us can afford to be FAT???

The list can go on forever. Basically, there's no shortage of stupid idiotic things that people believe. And honestly, ANY belief without thought is indicative of morons. That's what Morons do. They refuse to think. They spit back the "facts" that people once told them that they never questioned. These could be "facts" about religion or about science. I've seen just as many people who spout junk science that was disproved a decade ago as people who spout junk religion to justify their own sexism/racism/alcoholism/what have you.

Just think. Think about everything you say, everything you know, everything you hear, and everything you believe.

 

[Niccolo]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

What's wrong is kids are growing up in successively cleaner environments. If you grow up without playing in the dirt, wrestling with dogs, 'accidentally' eating bugs and stuff, then your immune system ends up about as effective as bubble wrap is against a handgun. But now it's all antibacterial this and super-hygenic that. Kids NEED to be exposed to stuff to get a decent immune system.

And on peanut allergies... if you grow up without being exposed to a certain protein, your body is far more likely to believe that it's something dangerous. Sometimes it's there from the start, but that's mostly because kids who used to die of allergies are now surviving long enough to breed, so the genes are moving on and spreading.

Cancer: The longer you live, the more likely you are to get it. And in an increasingly industrialised world, there are more pollutants... There are also far better tests for detecting cancer. What would have been missed 15 years ago is found today.

Mental disorders: Again, same thing. We increase our understanding and the signs become more obvious. But there's also a lot of scared parents with a need to pigeonhole, so /too many/ people get labelled autistic.

 

[Brotha Desmond]

While I do believe that you don't really need all the shots you get, there are times when they are necessary: curing polio, the chicken pox vaccine, the tetanus shot.
Besides it's absurd to think that it can do mind control. If that was the case then my secret organization would- wait. I mean, what secret organization?