Valve Ends Steam's Controversial Paid Mod Program

JET1971

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Shinkicker444 said:
While I agree if modders want money it should be through something like Patreon or Donations, I'm not sure Steam would implement such a system because they (and Beth) can't take a cut from donations. Or at least thats what I've seen mentioned. So if they can't get money out of it they won't do it. Also just because that mess they call a 'split' is industry standard doesn't mean it fits in this case.

Hopefully the donation button on the Nexus actually stays around and doesn't disappear off into the nethers of the site wherever the fuck it was before. Seriously I have no idea where it was but it apparently existed, now it's right there on the mod main page.
Valve and Bethesda allowed donations on the Steam Workshop and Robin at The Nexus saw this and contacted Bethesda and got the OK to implement Paypal donations on The Nexus. Valve and Bethesda then decided to try and sell mods and removed ALL the Paypal donation buttons from the workshop. To get donations on the workshop at this point meant selling your mod if they did manage to add the pay as you want minimum price of 0 and you had to upload the mod again because you couldn't change an old one to the paid model. Luckily they shut down the paid for mods but still removing Paypal donation buttons was a dick move.

If anyone cares about mod makers then please quit using the workshop now and use another place The Nexus or if you want more sexual mods then LoversLab.

renegade7 said:
Here's my thoughts on the matter:

If you spend weeks, nights, and weekends creating a mod for a game, you have the right to ask for money for it. On the other hand, if you refuse to pay some tiny amount of money for that work, the modder isn't the entitled one. You are.

To me, this is about respect for the content creators. Basically, if you're a modder, regardless of how much you think your work is worth, what's just happened is an angry mob has risen up and shrieked "No screw you, your work and your time are not worth a single penny to us and you don't have the right to say otherwise."
The overwhelming majority of mod authors were against this. So you are incorrect, users of mods didn't stop this, both makers and users did because it was the wrong way of making it happen.

There were too many holes in it. Copyright protection, legal defense, vetting the mods before they hit the store, unfair pay balance, unfair payment system, the list goes on and on as to why it wasn't a good deal.

Just think you name you mod Uber Sword of greatness and some AAA publisher hold IP for a game called Uber Swordsman and decides to sue how is the mod author to defend against that? Valve and Bethesda setup the workshop so that all legal responsibilities rests squarely on the shoulders of the authors. And before you say that wouldn't happen Bethesda sued another game company for 1 word. Scrolls. Is that the kind of marketplace you want to be in where you net only 25% of the profits? I for sure as fuck do not. That 75% better cover legal protection from litigious claims. And that's just 1 reason it was bad for all mod authors.
 

MonsterCrit

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Olas said:
MonsterCrit said:
Huzzah. The deafining screech of whiners has saved modders from the dreaded scourge of financial compensation for their labours on their own terms! Rejoice! Now Bethesda can enjoy all the benefits brought by modders without feeling obligated to pay anything.
You don't get it dude, modders didn't WANT the option to be compensated for their work. We as a community all agreed they don't. It was just too much freedom for them. They just want to make us free content and be rewarded with praise and admiration.
Wait we what now? I do not recall that article coming up for vote at the Modder's Local Chapter 2#27 Meetings.
 

Adultism

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Yay, now all the 99$ Someday I will finish this but until then here's god mode mods, are no more.
 

WeepingAngels

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Skeleon said:
WeepingAngels said:
You said:

I wouldn't be happy to see the former become the norm for any and all new titles, certainly, but I could accept that model to a degree, I suppose.
There is no inch, there is only the mile. That model, either you accept it all the way or you don't because you know the game industry will run it into the ground.
So, because you think "to a degree" isn't an actual possibility, you think I'd be "thrilled"? That's quite a leap.
Let me put it this way: I'm almost certain Valve will try something like this again, but with a game that's designed to employ this model from the start. It will happen.
My hope is that it won't spread to all games, because I wouldn't be happy if this model became the norm. I'll accept the inevitability of the model being implemented at all, but I'll be very unhappy if this model actually becomes the new normal for games.
It's not like me not accepting the inevitable will somehow prevent it from happening. Valve is determined to do this and they will. Best case scenario, it'll be limited to select games.
That's what a de-facto monopoly of Valve through Steam got us; but at least we'll have GOG and some others to fall back on.
You are already giving in so of course they will try to do it again but you are in a thread talking about the results of people NOT just accepting shit they don't like.

Why not just say "Fuck NO!" How many games released today are untouched by DLC? There is every reason to believe the same will happen with fan made DLC if we give them an inch.

I guess I just don't see why we have to say "Yes! We won this battle so let's throw Valve a bone and tell them how they can pull this off next time." Just say NO!
 

Skeleon

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WeepingAngels said:
You are already giving in so of course they will try to do it again but you are in a thread talking about the results of people NOT just accepting shit they don't like.

Why not just say "Fuck NO!" How many games released today are untouched by DLC? There is every reason to believe the same will happen with fan made DLC if we give them an inch.

I guess I just don't see why we have to say "Yes! We won this battle so let's throw Valve a bone and tell them how they can pull this off next time." Just say NO!
You're pretending like I'm in a debate with Valve or something and giving up. I don't. Of course will I continue to disagree with this model. I'm just telling you what I think is inevitable, because Valve can do whatever the fuck they want, thanks to their market position, and they will do this. It's just a matter of time. Stop acting like my realism (or, from your perspective, pessimism) is agreement with them.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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It's just a hopelessly complicated issue with a staggering number of tentacles.

On the one hand, an amateur developer who creates DLC-quality/size content deserves compensation for their work, and Bethesda deserves a cut of that compensation for furnishing the IP (one of the half dozen most popular in the whole industry) and a lot of the tools/resources.

On the other hand, an amateur developer who fixes one of Bethesda's seemingly countless fuck-ups also deserves money... from Bethesda. The very idea of Bethesda profiting off of a modder fixing their shitty UI for them while the consumer pays extra for shit that should have been in the game at launch... well apparently that idea was enough to unleash holy hell on the internet and prompt Valve to pull the plug.

Bottom line: any paid mod program NEEDS some sort of official curation to function. There needs to be someone deciding what mods are essential fixes (and should therefore be free and/or paid for by the publisher) and what mods constitute legitimate extensions of the content (and should therefore benefit both the modder and Bethesda). Without some person or body making these distinctions, it won't work.
 

WeepingAngels

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Skeleon said:
WeepingAngels said:
You are already giving in so of course they will try to do it again but you are in a thread talking about the results of people NOT just accepting shit they don't like.

Why not just say "Fuck NO!" How many games released today are untouched by DLC? There is every reason to believe the same will happen with fan made DLC if we give them an inch.

I guess I just don't see why we have to say "Yes! We won this battle so let's throw Valve a bone and tell them how they can pull this off next time." Just say NO!
You're pretending like I'm in a debate with Valve or something and giving up. I don't. Of course will I continue to disagree with this model. I'm just telling you what I think is inevitable, because Valve can do whatever the fuck they want, thanks to their market position, and they will do this. It's just a matter of time. Stop acting like my realism (or, from your perspective, pessimism) is agreement with them.
Their market position didn't help them this time, try not to act so helpless. If people thought paid mods were inevitable and didn't even try to fight it...we wouldn't be in this thread.
 

Skeleon

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WeepingAngels said:
Their market position didn't help them this time, try not to act so helpless. If people thought paid mods were inevitable and didn't even try to fight it...we wouldn't be in this thread.
Fight it? You mean complain? Like I said, I won't stop complaining.
But it's still going to happen. Suck it up.
I didn't use Steam at all for many years, because it's a fucking DRM and advertisement third-party tool that I didn't want anywhere near my games, but when a number of games started to become Steam-exclusive like Fallout New Vegas Ultimate and Skyrim, I had to suck it up, too. I still hate it, but I use it because there's no other legal option.
The same will happen with this model. Eventually, it'll be adopted, whether you like it or not. Keep complaining, like I do about it and Steam in general, but don't expect Valve to give half a fuck.
They'll do it in a less conspicuous way next time and gamers will praise them for it, like they praise Steam for conveniently updating their games and providing a chat room and whatnot in addition to being a DRM and advertisement tool. Nobody gave a shit about the people who were against mandatory Steam registration for games back then, because it's just such a fun and useful thing to have all your games in one place, after all!
When they attempt to introduce this same model next time, they'll make it more palatable and a lot of gamers will flock to them like it's a good idea, you just wait. Maybe they'll add achievements to it, even! Yay!
 

TruthInGaming

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Yeah valve was totally in the wrong for this for trying to farm off their modding community in the first place. While I won't forget the act of evil they attempted I will also acknowledge their admission of a mistake.
 

Atmos Duality

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Lightknight said:
Olas said:
Sigh. Oh well, I guess the internet got what it wanted.

Maybe some of you will follow your own advice and donate to the modders you like. I won't hold my breath.
Exactly. What we had before, and now have again, is a no-profit option. People bitching about them only getting 25% really pales in comparison to the fact they currently get 0%.
And yet even that fact pales in comparison to the fact that 0% has been more than enough to sustain the modding communities for nearly 2 decades. Don't blame modders for rejecting a horrible solution to an artificial problem; they did exactly what they needed to to protect what they enjoyed, short-sighted profits be damned.
 

Strazdas

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erttheking said:
Moments like this make me wonder how we expect people to fix things if we say that we hate something, then criticize the people for listening to us and changing their policy.

On a side note, damn, that was quick.
What, do you expect us to congratulate them on having common sense? If i stab somone should i expect an applause for pulling the knife out because i am no longer stabbing whne i pull it off? ignoring that the wound still remains and the guy is bleeding?

Darknacht said:
PC game development use to be the domain of hobbyists but now its an industry, same goes for internet videos. Fuck right now letting other people watch you play video games is a job for some people. Just because something is currently a hobby does not mean it can't become a paying job.

If companies make money directly off mods they will be encouraged to make even better modding tools for the community to use. And you think that modders will reject more mod support and the option to get paid for their work if they want the money? What a joke, based on the number of popular and quality mods that decided to start charging for them as soon as Steam let them it looks like many of the better modders are for not against this kind of system.
Unless you are talking about those first games in the 60s this is complete nonsense. PC gaming was a business from the get go. in fact it was a business before consoles existed.

Ah, yes, where is that 100 dollar price to watch a youtube video? where are those youtube videos stolen from others and sold for money? oh, right, there arent any.

Companies are already encouraged to make better modding tools - modding sells game copies. not to mention that in 99% of cases modders make their own, better, tools anyway.

Ah yes, a total of 2 popular modders decided to charge money, on of whom are now considered scourge of modding and noone is going to work with him anymore, while the rest were against it. this is totally statistics in your favor.....

Lightspeaker said:
I know. Sometime in the past year Forbes, of all places, has become one of my most highly favoured sites when I'm looking for insights into something in the industry. It feels strange. X-D
Forbes is "big enough" journal that it actually goes out and hires actual, real journalists that actually investigate what they write about instead of hiring a glorified blogger that writes articles based on a single persons opinion. last couple years gaming became the biggest entertainment industry worldwide and is big enough that some journalists can work writing about it full time. the result is amazing articles on Forbes.

erttheking said:
No I'm talking about everything. Every time a person fixes something people mock them for backpeddling.
If you fix something that was broken because if your actions to begin with dont expect a pat on the head. If you broke it you fix is is the "normal thing" and not something to be praised, but to be expected as a default. Praise should be reserved for when they actually do something good instead of fixing what they themselves broke.

Olas said:
Maybe some of you will follow your own advice and donate to the modders you like. I won't hold my breath.
I did before. I kind of regret donating to one of them due to the way he acted throughout this. I will continue to donate to those whos mods i really enjoy. Another person in a mod thread said that its very unlikely that even 1 out of 100 downloaders donate. well for me personally its closer to 1/20 mods. so i guess im donating more than average?


IceForce said:
It wouldn't surprise me if that was part of the plan all along.

> Announce (deliberate) idiotic new system
> Wait 4 days
> Renege on the announcement and ride the wave of good PR
Valves reputation is lower than it has ever been. if that was their plan it has failed spectacullary.
 

JET1971

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MonsterCrit said:
Olas said:
MonsterCrit said:
Huzzah. The deafining screech of whiners has saved modders from the dreaded scourge of financial compensation for their labours on their own terms! Rejoice! Now Bethesda can enjoy all the benefits brought by modders without feeling obligated to pay anything.
You don't get it dude, modders didn't WANT the option to be compensated for their work. We as a community all agreed they don't. It was just too much freedom for them. They just want to make us free content and be rewarded with praise and admiration.
Wait we what now? I do not recall that article coming up for vote at the Modder's Local Chapter 2#27 Meetings.
Dude hasn't a clue. Many mod makers do want the ability to make money from mods, It's human nature after all to want something in return for hard work. What we didn't want was Valve and Bethesda's ham-fisted way of going about it. There was no protection from copyright violations, no legal protections from ridiculous lawsuits, 75/25 split was pathetic, forced to onl use the garbage Steam Workshop, and thousands of other concerns they refused to address and flat out said deal with it yourselves.

There is also a great many who mod because they want to and not for anyone else. They share what they made just so others can enjoy it too and a little showing off in that ofcourse. But everything made is for themselves first and foremost everything else is secondary. So no we don't make mods to give away out of the goodness of our hearts. We make for us then give away out of the goodness of our hearts as well as The Nexus makes a sweet cloud backup lol.

@WeepingAngel
Skeleon is far closer to the mark than you might realize. Bethesda is making a major announcement at E3 this year, most likely Fallout 4 and a couple other titles, maybe FO4 and TESVI as that would be something worth the expense of holding the speech. and this paid mod debacle was most likely just to get everyone used to the idea of paid mods on the workshop. And once the titles are released all mods must be hosted on the workshop and for a price. The Bethblog piece they did highly suggest this is their intention. If they do it I hope it fails and fails miserably with loss of sales of not just the titles forced under that situation but the next title.

Oblivion mod authors are the reason Skyrim was as big as it was, TESVII making half the money would be just desserts for them to eat because TESVI if they made mods paid and only on the workshop.
 

exxxed

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erttheking said:
No I'm talking about everything. Every time a person fixes something people mock them for backpeddling. And frankly I don't see how any positives come out of it. Oh don't get me wrong, sometimes it's funny when it's something like the Xbone when they were cramming it down our throats for months on end, but really if we keep hammering this in people are gonna start thinking "If we don't do what they want, they'll hate us. If we do what they want, they'll hate us. No point in doing what they want then."
''Fixes something''?! Fixes what exactly, mind you?

They implemented a shitty decision made by themselves, for themselves, which affected the community/consumer market at large, and it backfired. There was nothing to fix, they shouldn't have implemented it in the first place. Even Bethesda tried it with the bloody ''Horse Armor'' and ''Spell Tomes'' for crying out loud, now look how much good that did them.

The community ain't the ones who should be blamed for this, mate.
 

alj

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I have nothing against the mod creators getting paid for there work if its worth it. The way valve went about this however was bloody stupid.
 
Apr 5, 2008
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Lillowh said:
KingsGambit said:
At the same time, I always questioned Bethesda's stance on forbidding sales of mods made with their toolsets. The kid who made Falskaar for example...he put thousands of hours into the project; why couldn't he sell it for $3-5 or something? The financial motivator could allow for some outstanding mods, things with the polish and depth of professionally made content.
Then you'd run into the same problem as this. Sure, that's probably worth a 10 bucks, but then the same slew of questions come up.
-Its Bethesdas toolkit and game, what should their cut be?
- If he's allowed to sell that then I can sell this peice of armor for the same price, right?
-Shouldnt people who assisted someone when they had questions making a mod get a cut as well?
-Why share techniques if it just allows more saturation of the "market" meaning less chance a person's mod will get noticed?
-Who will pay for the manpower required to make a quality control team that would be required to make sure mods that are dead on arrival or straight up copies don't appear?
-If the modder is not getting paid a salary to develop the mods they're going to sell, why would someone like the Falskarr dev take the days to add in more sidequests that nobody would miss if it was released without them?
-Does that previous scenario promote quality?
-Wouldnt it also be more economically sound to put out Falskarr in that situation to start making money and then release those extra quests or features as an "add-on" branch to the mod that you could ALSO sell? (See: how the iNeed mod was split into multiple parts, both being paid mods)
-Does that previous scenario work out better for the consumer?
-What level of accountability should therefore be on the mod creators part to make sure a mod is kept working?
-If there isn't much, why would a non salaried worker take up valuable time that could be used toward their next project fixing an old one that already got sold to x number of people?

And the list goes on. Its a tough situation and Valves approach was clearly not the best solution decided on by someone who probably didn't understand or fully think through the ramifications.

Sure mod creators being entitled to nothing seems like a shifty situation, but that's also thinking about it wrong. Time spent making a mod is time spent gaining experience. Honing your craft to a level that may lead to getting involved in actual development, be it at a corporation or indie studio. Quality work and good community interaction will bring in people who will want to donate, be it money, time, or experience. That's the real income from modding, and its a self sustaining machine. After all, it's still a copyrighted piece of code at the base, but that knowledge gained can be used to create your own game to sell.
Those are all quite valid and important points and I do agree. Given the choice of Steam's attempt to market mods and having them continue to be free as they've always been is a no brainer. I enjoy modding my games and being a part of the communities that surround our favourite titles.

I think my biggest issue(s) with Valve's way was a combination of the huge cut they were prepared to take from mod sales and the lack of policing. The thing is, in principle I don't think it's a bad thing for *mod creators* to sell mods, without involvement from Steam or other companies. I'm not talking about the inevitable crap that saturates any field with amateurs given free reign to create anything they choose (modding, fanfic, etc), but the good stuff. The best stuff. The 1%. The DotAs, Garry's Mods, Day-Zs, Counter Strikes, Falskaars, STALKER "Completes", Nehrims, etc.

I'm not debating at all Bethesda's right to set the conditions for use of their toolset. There is no question that Skyrim is their game, in their engine, made with their models, textures and other assets and their toolset. But the issue with modding is that there is no motivation beyond love to create something spectacular. On my Skyrim mods I spent anywhere from 2 to 10 days and I don't think I could invest any more. My time has some value and as much as I'd love to realise some other ideas (one in particular that is closer to a total conversion than a mod), the fact that Bethesda would "own" it and I couldn't sell it if I wanted to is a demotivator. The ability for a modder to sell something they've invested months or more on, that increases a game's longevity (if not its sales) would, in my opinion, attract much more talented people to try their hands and much better content coming out for the games we love.

Consider a professionally developed game. Have one dev working on it, for 40 hrs/week and that's 40 man hours for the cost of his/her weekly salary. Add a second and it's 80 hrs/week going into development. Give those two devs eight weeks and that's 640 man hours. Those hours cost the company money in salaries and expenses, the devs get paid for their work to put food on the table and the company sells the end result for profit. A modder making an extensive mod could as easily spend as many hours or more. Getting renumerated in some fashion is not unreasonable in my opinion and the inability to charge further turns off all but the most dedicated and sadly causes many projects to never materialise, are given up on due to the commitment.

I cannot suggest a perfect system, and you have raised questions that bear thought. But I do think that there should be a way for modders to sell their work as both reward for their time and effort and a motivator to create something good enough to sell. Valve's approach was disastrous and I'm glad it's been shelved; corporations shouldn't get involved in modding. I'm glad they're remaining free and among the communities of people that make them. But modders time and quality work can have value too and I would be happy to pay for quality mods if money could motivate talented modders to make them.
 

MonsterCrit

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JET1971 said:
Dude hasn't a clue. Many mod makers do want the ability to make money from mods, It's human nature after all to want something in return for hard work. What we didn't want was Valve and Bethesda's ham-fisted way of going about it. There was no protection from copyright violations, no legal protections from ridiculous lawsuits, 75/25 split was pathetic, forced to onl use the garbage Steam Workshop, and thousands of other concerns they refused to address and flat out said deal with it yourselves.
75/25 split... look you show me an industry where any worker or producer gets to keep 25% of the final sale value of what they produce. It doesn't exist. Unless you're going full self publish but again that would mean you'd have to use your, own engine, assets, etc, etc. I.e. You wouldn't be modding or creating a derivative work. It also means you would have to absorb all the costs of developing your engine, art assets, and so on.

Besides 75/25 wasn't the actual split. The true split is actually closer to 60%-40% between bethesda and the Modder. which is a pretty damned good split. It's like how you don't count things like income or sales tax

You can't count steam's share because steam always imposes a transaction fee on any market/store transactions.

Just to point out. since 2012 Valve has paid out $57 million in total to modders. This system was not something new. Valve has had this going on for years. Near half of the items in Tf2, Dota2 and CS:GO are in fact community made mods and items. Which are being sold, which are generating income for their creators, who are rather happy with their income.

Strangely also there seems to be very little squabble over copy right or what not. In any of those arenas.

There is also a great many who mod because they want to and not for anyone else. They share what they made just so others can enjoy it too and a little showing off in that ofcourse. But everything made is for themselves first and foremost everything else is secondary. So no we don't make mods to give away out of the goodness of our hearts. We make for us then give away out of the goodness of our hearts as well as The Nexus makes a sweet cloud backup lol.
Because there's little nobility in giving away something that you couldn't sell anyway.. you know like G DUbya nude photos. WHen given the chance to sell... more than a few modders over the years have been very happy to sell.

Just saying as my point ... Cheapskate gamers have rescued modders from the scourge of financial remuneration for their hard work. Whether they charged or not was always up to the modder. The gaming community simply decided that modders didn't deserve the right to choose.
 

Lightknight

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Atmos Duality said:
Lightknight said:
Olas said:
Sigh. Oh well, I guess the internet got what it wanted.

Maybe some of you will follow your own advice and donate to the modders you like. I won't hold my breath.
Exactly. What we had before, and now have again, is a no-profit option. People bitching about them only getting 25% really pales in comparison to the fact they currently get 0%.
And yet even that fact pales in comparison to the fact that 0% has been more than enough to sustain the modding communities for nearly 2 decades. Don't blame modders for rejecting a horrible solution to an artificial problem; they did exactly what they needed to to protect what they enjoyed, short-sighted profits be damned.
It doesn't mean that financial incentive wouldn't attract new and more talent to the modding community.

Think about it, all this was, was just another opportunity that no one even had to take advantage of. This was a no-lose situation. Bethesda offered them a chance to profit and a rental space on their storefront which gave them access to a ton of traffic and a trusted purchasing provider. If the rent is too steep then that's up to the modders to decide if it's a deal they find equitable. Not us as raving mobs about the injustice of how they have one more option to use that could actually produce profit rather than the 0% option they've had for two decades.

I mean, geeze, your statement could just as easily be used to point out how sad it is that modders haven't had any means of compensation for their work for decades. You make it sound like that's a mark of honor but it isn't. People with a passion are too easily taken advantage of and 0% return has got to be the worst.
 

WeepingAngels

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JET1971 said:
@WeepingAngel
Skeleon is far closer to the mark than you might realize. Bethesda is making a major announcement at E3 this year, most likely Fallout 4 and a couple other titles, maybe FO4 and TESVI as that would be something worth the expense of holding the speech. and this paid mod debacle was most likely just to get everyone used to the idea of paid mods on the workshop. And once the titles are released all mods must be hosted on the workshop and for a price. The Bethblog piece they did highly suggest this is their intention. If they do it I hope it fails and fails miserably with loss of sales of not just the titles forced under that situation but the next title.

Oblivion mod authors are the reason Skyrim was as big as it was, TESVII making half the money would be just desserts for them to eat because TESVI if they made mods paid and only on the workshop.
I didn't disagree that they would try again, I even said that in one of my posts. I disagree with throwing your hands in the air and just accepting it.

Here is my post about that http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.874585-Valve-Ends-Steams-Controversial-Paid-Mod-Program?page=3#21976446

ME :-) said:
No doubt Valve and Bethesda are thinking up a new, more acceptable way to make money (the lions share) off of the work of modders. Don't jump back on the Valve/Steam bandwagon again thinking this is over.
 

WeepingAngels

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Lightknight said:
Atmos Duality said:
Lightknight said:
Olas said:
Sigh. Oh well, I guess the internet got what it wanted.

Maybe some of you will follow your own advice and donate to the modders you like. I won't hold my breath.
Exactly. What we had before, and now have again, is a no-profit option. People bitching about them only getting 25% really pales in comparison to the fact they currently get 0%.
And yet even that fact pales in comparison to the fact that 0% has been more than enough to sustain the modding communities for nearly 2 decades. Don't blame modders for rejecting a horrible solution to an artificial problem; they did exactly what they needed to to protect what they enjoyed, short-sighted profits be damned.
It doesn't mean that financial incentive wouldn't attract new and more talent to the modding community.

Think about it, all this was, was just another opportunity that no one even had to take advantage of. This was a no-lose situation. Bethesda offered them a chance to profit and a rental space on their storefront which gave them access to a ton of traffic and a trusted purchasing provider. If the rent is too steep then that's up to the modders to decide if it's a deal they find equitable. Not us as raving mobs about the injustice of how they have one more option to use that could actually produce profit rather than the 0% option they've had for two decades.

I mean, geeze, your statement could just as easily be used to point out how sad it is that modders haven't had any means of compensation for their work for decades. You make it sound like that's a mark of honor but it isn't. People with a passion are too easily taken advantage of and 0% return has got to be the worst.
Remember when DLC was just an optional thing for devs to do? Now it's become the norm and those who don't do DLC are said to be leaving money on the table.

I wonder how many people would have protested DLC years ago if they had known how things would go.
 

Atmos Duality

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Mar 3, 2010
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Lightknight said:
It doesn't mean that financial incentive wouldn't attract new and more talent to the modding community. Think about it, all this was, was just another opportunity that no one even had to take advantage of.
Oh I agree there, but probably not in the way you want.

This was a no-lose situation.
Oh really? From what I saw, over the 4 days paid-mods were up (for ONE GAME) it was a living nightmare.
There was community infighting, copycat-theft, and the very predictable less-for-more bullshit that had some modders splitting their work into bits for higher resale.

Sufficed to say, there was plenty of 'lose' going around.

And who was losing the most? The players, as usual.
We're always the first to lose out on value when some suit decides to commodify us even further, just like it's been for the past decade (oh, but you don't DARE complain about it, or some pretentious asshole will call you "entitled").

Bethesda offered them a chance to profit and a rental space on their storefront which gave them access to a ton of traffic and a trusted purchasing provider. If the rent is too steep then that's up to the modders to decide if it's a deal they find equitable. Not us as raving mobs about the injustice of how they have one more option to use that could actually produce profit rather than the 0% option they've had for two decades.
Let me ask you something: Why do they NEED profit?

You claim money will attract talent, but I question why that is even necessary to begin with?

Fact is, it isn't. Mods are derivative works.
They're derivatives works because, AND PAY CLOSE ATTENTION HERE, they're based on existing games.
Meaning: Any modder is implicitly a part of that game's active audience already.

Did you catch that?
Talent and interest are drawn organically from the audience themselves.
There's literally no need for a money lure, and there never has been.

Why do you think more money will improve things? Because money motivates?
Fine, but what if that motivation is butting heads with 'something else'?

You know what that 'else' is? What else motivates players/modders to engage in modding? Their dirt-cheap (free) cost.
Modders feel GOOD for making something that's appreciated and interesting to others. That's culture, a dying concept I know, but that's what's butting heads with business angle that's being introduced here.

"But why can't culture and business coexist? There will be free mods and paid mods. Everyone's happy."

No, not really. Here, they're diametrically opposed and it's all due to WHY MODDING WORKS.
In modding, it's the PLAYERS that are trying to create something of worth for themselves rather than relying on regular suppliers (read: BUSINESS) to offer it to them. And this is FINE.

It works, because most developers are shackled to the necessity of business; I know a number of developers that would love to do more, but they need to put their business first. Which is fine because they're professionals, and I expect that from them.

Modders are content creators yes, but they are NOT professionals. DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE PROFESSIONALS JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE CONTENT CREATORS. That's like treating Little League baseball like MLB pros.
(this is the key fact that everyone arguing in favor for this new marketplace seems to be missing)

Consequently, Modders can freely experiment with building upon what developers provided, with both parties benefiting.
The developer gets a free boost to the value of their game (which drives sales, as Bethesda's games have proven) and so does the player. And that's FAIR. It's free because the development was done pro-bono for the developer, and out of pure interest on the part of the player.

Even better, modding is strictly optional so any issues in audience appeal are self-correcting (unlike DLC, patches or other forced "official" content).

But what about those who think their works were worth real money?
The "soft option" is to ask for donations, and it works.
The "hard option" is the modder going into business themselves as a real developer, AND THIS IS THE BEST OUTCOME IMO.

Some of the THE BEST games come from these people because they KNOW what their audiences want, but have the practical knowledge to provide it. There are games ICONIC of their genre that have come from modders and modding communities.
(Counterstrike, DOTA1&2/LOL, Defense Grid, I can keep going.)

That's why that '0%' revenue model worked for modders and why it isn't a real problem.
Because modding ISN'T A BUSINESS; They aren't driven by business oriented goals.

By introducing a hard marketplace for mods, all they're doing is trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
And why? To wring even more profit to their side from the players. That's it.

And it's terrifying because we NEED a hobby-space in gaming untainted by business, and right now that space is modding.
It's where developer and player intersect, and it's one of the last places where the market can self-orient without resorting to the brutality of base economics. (which as we've seen, is far too often a very flawed, long, and painful process for the player)

So many problems in gaming occur primarily because developers/publishers are either out of touch with their audiences, or they're so addicted to cynically exploiting players that they don't pay them any further thought.

Lets not make that situation any worse than it already is, mkay?

I mean, geeze, your statement could just as easily be used to point out how sad it is that modders haven't had any means of compensation for their work for decades. You make it sound like that's a mark of honor but it isn't.
Well, if you omit literally all relevant context and pretend that modders are some oppressed slave workforce, then yes, my statement could easily be used as an indictment of such an artificial plight.

But that would be painfully ignorant at best, and disgustingly dishonest at worst.

People with a passion are too easily taken advantage of and 0% return has got to be the worst.
And who was taking advantage of them before?
The other players? The other MODDERS?

You mean the people that freely exchanged information and just sat down to improve games they loved?
Oh yeah, those fucking MONSTERS. Those horrible self entitled little PRICKS.

How dare they peacefully enjoy their hobby without the cynical taint of business punching them right in the asshole.

Gosh, I guess Gaben was right, since everyone is only motivated by money we'd better get to work forcing a new middleman to take advantage of them right away!

....OH WAIT.