Valve Fans Form Left 4 Dead 2 Boycott Group

Worsle

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Jul 4, 2008
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Spike815 said:
So Valve took fans suggestions, added melee weapons, new guns, different zombies, day maps, new characters and new levels, and people are mad about this? Damn you Valve for listening to our suggestions and making an enjoyable sequel! We wanted all of that for free!
The problem is what they are talking about just now does not justify a sequel, you know people would be a lot less annoyed if this was going to be an expatiation. Really it is less than a year since l4d came out and they are talking about a sequel that is rushed in pretty much any ones book (you except the yearly sports games but is that the standard we are going for?). In this time I find it really hard to believe they would have any graphical or technological advancements that would require a whole new game. Why is that so unreasonable?

Added to this we have valves promise to keep supporting l4d but when l4d2 comes out are we really expecting they will keep both games running with full support? No that is stupid economics and if they do all they will be doing is hurting both the community for l4d and l4d2 so no one wins. Think about it if l4d is going strong why spend more to get l4d2 when their is not that much improvement and it is still getting upgrades? Really this is a bizarre move and these pledges of support just don't make much sense.
 

Jumplion

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Mar 10, 2008
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DeadlyYellow said:
Aww, c'mon now. Where's the wit?

Must not be a fan of the Duke.

Or maybe you don't like jokes, which seems odd given the real topic in discussion here.
Nah, I was tired, and I didn't feel like continuing debate at the time. Hang on a sec, let me think of something witty.....

......
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VALVe is becoming the 3DRealms for me!

Bah, still morning, need to get the brain juices going.
 

TsunamiWombat

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Sep 6, 2008
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I recently had a chance to read about the games upcoming new features and despite my previously staunch boycott stance, I am somewhat mollified. The article on OXM described destructible terrain/materials such as rotting walkways and bridges, and one segment of the game where Air Force bombers (controlled by the AI director) are destroying a bridge behind you. Thats right, Director controlled Bombers.

That does, I guess, justify a sequel (especially when placed in the hands of modders), but the whole THIS WILL BE AWESOME WHEN MODDERS GET IT! Arguement is what sold me on the FIRST game, and I see no reason why they couldn't have delayed the first game to include these updates.

Also, they better not do this a fucking third time. Still... I'm willing to ease off and join the wait and see crowd now. If they hadn't decided to be titty teasers and told us about these features upfront, there wouldn't have been an uproar.
 

zion505000

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Oct 21, 2008
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Fuck, really? Its seriously that bad to these people that they boycott it? Then again, this probably would have been better as an expansion pack, but I suppose having 8 characters in 2 completely different places wouldn't fit together well. It'd be all off from the character's interchangeable dialogue to the environments. Either way, I'd buy it.
 

Motiv_

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Jun 2, 2009
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My question to the boycotters is, if new weapons, new settings, new characters, a new gamemode, gameplay enhancements, enhancements to the AI director, new infected, AND a brand spankin new game engine isn't enough to justify a sequel, then what exactly is? The Second Coming Of Christ, The Game?
 

Evilsmurf1

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Aug 4, 2009
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It never ceases to amaze me how the anonymity of the Internet leads to these extreme expressions of opinion (e.g. "people who feel this way are idiots" and "this is a farcical waste of time" and so on). I could be misreading the situation, but it seems to me that it boils down to a very basic, uncontroversial matter: some customers object to a practice (perceived or actual) on the part of a company, and they've started a boycott (not a new idea there), and others disagree with their outlook. Do people really need to be branded as morons and angry children over something that simple?

Personally, I joined the boycott to stand and be counted. While I can certainly see flaws in some of the arguments on the party line, I still some compelling reasons to seek Valve's attention. I know this has been talked about back and forth, but I wanted to spell a few things out and see what everyone thought.

First off, there definitely has been DLC. I don't know that anyone in the boycott community is asserting otherwise. However, I don't think it would be fair to say that Valve has performed up to the high stand they set for themselves (I suspect that's why TF2 gets brought up by the boycott community so often). Survival Mode is hardly a new mode. It literally does nothing beyond take a section of existing campaigns and add a timer to it. The Lighthouse adds nothing more than a single, small section of standalone map in which to play this new "Mode." For comparison's sake, if Valve released a modification to L4D that let players, say, try to sneak past randomly-spawned witches in the barn towards the end of Blood Harvest, could we justifiably call that a new "Mode?" If they added something the size of the Lighthouse for you to use to run past witches and a scoreboard to count how many witches you'd snuck past, would we have a new "Mode?"

What surprises me is the lack of new campaigns. The game would seem vastly more loved by the Valve support team if we weren't playing the same 4 maps over and over again. The director keeps that from being entirely repetitive, but it still gets old after a while. One of my primary reasons for jumping on the boycott wagon is the fact that Valve has obviously tasked a lot of its resources with developing a new game when they could have slowed that process a bit and had some of their developers make us the occasional new map. That alone would've gone a long way to fulfill their promises to the L4D community.

Secondly, notice back there I said "promises to the L4D community." I wasn't making that up, and I wasn't performing some Internet-style exaggeration. They specifically, repeatedly, and quotably said we'd be seeing extended DLC support for this game. I'm not saying they lied; I'm saying they've delivered a lot less than we expect from them (because, yet again, they set the bar high with TF2). There appear to be three ways of looking at this: either they lied about how much support they were going to give us (I disagree with that exaggeration), they held up their end of the bargain (I disagree with that technically-true/actually weak statement), or they're being halfhearted with their follow-through (which is what I see happening). We bought this game at least partially because what we were led to expect from Valve's (again) explicit promises and past performance. What we received was the bare minimum to keep them from being outright liars and a $50 sequel that explains where all the L4D staff disappeared to for the past year.

Finally, it looks a tad illogical to say things like "Valve has supported this game more than most game companies would have" or "people in this boycott are angry babies, and they will have no effect." That ignores the fundamental concepts behind a boycott. We expect high standards from Valve, and (should we believe those are slipping), we will respond. The only "votes" we get as consumers are our dollars. That's not some immature, "ragequit" attitude at work; it's simply us engaging the normal capitalist feedback system and expressing something other than silent consent. I don't hate Valve and haven't let my positive opinion of them turn on a dime. I just think they made a mistake and did something that wasn't good for customer satisfaction. I'm filling out the virtual "comment card" and saying I strongly disapprove of this one specific thing they did. It doesn't change how fantastic their games have always been, and it doesn't ignore what effort they put into L4D. It simply says, "I don't think this was enough, considering your promises and reputation."

Finally, the above article was practically the only thing I've read in the "gaming press" thus far that even bothered to suggest there might be some sort of legitimacy to this boycott. I feel really let-down in that regard. 40,000 members, and it's still "stupid" and "pointless" and "won't make a difference?" It already made a difference; Valve has responded to it publicly, it's gotten press, and more and more people join daily. That constitutes a response. Yes, if 90% of the people in the boycott are blowhards who'll cave and buy the game the minute it comes out, then the remaining 1,000 unsold copies of L4D2 won't necessarily put a dent in Valve's collective pockets, but that's beside the point. Does anyone really think the next time they're planning a sequel release that they won't be informed by this mess? Doesn't it seem reasonable to imagine someone at that meeting might say, "Hey, let's make sure we are clear about what DLC we're offering and make sure it gets noticed so we don't end up with another L4D2-style uproar" or "We'd better be careful we don't create the perception that we started ignoring the game to work on its sequel the day it hit the shelves so we can avoid a negative response like we had for L4D2"?

See, the idea behind a boycott isn't just "we won't buy something, and they'll go bankrupt" or some such notion of punishment. It's "posting rants in Internet forums, no matter how well they're spelled, won't get the results we want, so let's get their attention." I know there are childish, ignorant, angry, and illogical members of the boycott--that's true of every group of people, even NASA. Please, though, don't label the whole project as abortive or idiotic or ineffectual just because you can quote some idiot on our side or some flaw in one of our members' views. In the end, the point is that some of your fellow Valve customers aren't happy with a product, and they're following the normal path for a complaint in such a situation. If you don't agree, that's fine. If you want to talk us out of it, that's fine. But don't look for some handhold to insult all of us when the fundamental divide here is simply we don't like a product offering by Valve, and you do. That doesn't make us idiots, naive, or angry babies.

For the record, I live in New Orleans and love zombie horror (and video games) a lot more than is probably good for my social life. I will, I suspect, buy L4D2 at some point. I say this because I have faith (unlike the article above) that Valve is going to extend an olive branch before L4D2's release. I'm not going to hold my breath for every "demand" (or request) to be met, but I would like to see Valve acknowledge that they did something (wrong or right) that irritated a substantial portion of their customer base and try to make it right. That would go a long way towards indicating their commitment to excellence isn't going out the window. There are all sorts of things they could do. More official maps, add some characters, figure out a way to combine the two games' online player bases so L4D doesn't become obsolete, and so on. They're creative people, and I think they'll figure out a way to fix this situation. I look forward to it, because I can't wait to run amok in my home city slaughtering zombies left and right.





P.S. Not with a chainsaw, of course. What were they thinking?!? Something noisy and heavy that requires fuel and could easily accidentally maim its user? Give me a crowbar any day, Valve! You know how to model one of those, right? ;)
 

AceDiamond

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Evilsmurf1 said:
See, the idea behind a boycott isn't just "we won't buy something, and they'll go bankrupt" or some such notion of punishment. It's "posting rants in Internet forums, no matter how well they're spelled, won't get the results we want, so let's get their attention." I know there are childish, ignorant, angry, and illogical members of the boycott--that's true of every group of people, even NASA. Please, though, don't label the whole project as abortive or idiotic or ineffectual just because you can quote some idiot on our side or some flaw in one of our members' views. In the end, the point is that some of your fellow Valve customers aren't happy with a product, and they're following the normal path for a complaint in such a situation. If you don't agree, that's fine. If you want to talk us out of it, that's fine. But don't look for some handhold to insult all of us when the fundamental divide here is simply we don't like a product offering by Valve, and you do. That doesn't make us idiots, naive, or angry babies.
Actually it does because it shows you can't control your members. And frankly, any group is only as sane as it's craziest members. So the fact that nobody in the boycott has done nothing to discredit or disavow the actions of the people who have griefed L4D servers in the name of the boycott or sent out mass invites repeatedly in the name of it, proves that the group at large considers this an acceptable strategy.

And I will label this group as misinformed because of the simple fact that they have lied since day one. They said Valve wasn't putting out content despite their being an SDK already available a month before L4D2 was even announced. And frankly, when your entire basis for the boycott was based off misinformation, why should I believe in the message? Simple, I shouldn't. And I don't. And I never will.
 

Evilsmurf1

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AceDiamond said:
Actually it does because it shows you can't control your members. And frankly, any group is only as sane as it's craziest members.
...seriously? That's a really strange viewpoint from where I'm standing. I mean, by your rationale, all Americans must be as crazy as Jeffrey Dahmer, all Germans must be as cruel as Heinrich Himmler, all Christians must be as ignorant as the Spanish Inquisition, and so on. "Control our members?" This is a Steam Community page--not a cult. We're talking about the Internet equivalent of a petition.

How are the staff of the boycott supposed to "control" what members say? Well, I mean, how are they supposed to do that beyond, say, writing a news post right there on the main site that advises members thus:

"Does this mean we should pressure people and yell at them if they want to buy L4D2? No. We need to conduct ourselves in a professional manner if we want to represent the community well. Respect the position of those who want to buy L4D2, but disagree respectfully with their views." (That's just the most extant example I could find on short notice, but it's certainly not an isolated one.)

AceDiamond said:
So the fact that nobody in the boycott has done nothing to discredit or disavow the actions of the people who have griefed L4D servers in the name of the boycott or sent out mass invites repeatedly in the name of it, proves that the group at large considers this an acceptable strategy.
In my post above, I specifically mentioned that I didn't agree with what many members of the boycott had claimed, and I went so far as to call some of them "angry, ignorant, childish, and illogical." It was certainly intended to be a disavowal. Of course, I'm not on the staff of the boycott (I'm just a rank-and-file member who likes to read "The Escapist"). Perhaps you were indicating that you were disappointed by the lack of disavowals by official staff. I wonder how much research you did before you made that conclusion, though. That might have something to do with how often the staff puts up public announcements encouraging players to avoid slander and insults, not be childish or offensive, and to remain respectful and rational so the group will be taken seriously. You could, for instance, find some fine examples of this advice in the "Code of Conduct" they put on their site.

Griefers and jerks are griefers and jerks, regardless of whose flag they're flying. I'll do my best to only lightly brush against the obvious point, which is that plenty of things being said by your side of the argument have been untrue, angry, childish, illogical, or dumb (but I won't be unfair in my judgment of how well you "control the members" of your faction).

AceDiamond said:
And I will label this group as misinformed because of the simple fact that they have lied since day one. They said Valve wasn't putting out content despite their being an SDK already available a month before L4D2 was even announced. And frankly, when your entire basis for the boycott was based off misinformation, why should I believe in the message? Simple, I shouldn't. And I don't. And I never will.
See? There's that Internet exaggeration rearing its ugly head again. You found what you believe to be a single flaw in the premise of the boycott, and therefore our "entire basis...was based [sic] off misinformation." One flaw (perceived or actual), and our entire basis is annihilated? What is it about the Internet that makes so many people lunge for the extreme like that? I can't help but imagine if I were entering this debate with a stranger in a face-to-face setting, your statement may have come out more like, "I believe that a fact in your boycott's premise is false, thus I question the boycott itself."

As for the "misinformation" itself, I'm at a loss for finding it. Had you navigated to the Steam Community page for the boycott before proclaiming what it says, you would have had a good chance of stumbling across the official manifesto (on the top of the first page you would have seen had you checked), which spells it out like so:

The boycott believes that "Left 4 Dead has not yet received the support and content which Valve has repeatedly stated will be delivered", and therefore we request "That Valve honor its commitment to release ongoing periodic content for Left 4 Dead."

Now, I'll admit that could be taken to mean a failure of many possible degrees. So, I'll concede that you would have had to click on at least *one* link before you'd get the clarifications that the staff respect Valve, recognize that content has been released, and that their beef is more aligned against the paucity of fixes, improvements, and new content and the quality of some of the content. They very pointedly state my earlier view that the content, when viewed alongside the same type of content for TF2 and the verbiage used by Valve when they announced L4D in the first place, is not (in our collective opinion) sufficient.

This is what I find genuinely irritating about this whole "the boycott is a bunch of whiny nonsense" response I see everywhere. To wit: it's largely uninformed.
 

link1o1o1o

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Oct 22, 2008
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I honestly think its too soon for left 4 dead 2 to come out, since during the time the news of the game's release came out, I was planning on buying the first left 4 dead. This puts me to decide whether to get the first or second game because there has been high praise for both games and left 4 dead is going to have another DLC in September.

On the note of the boycott, I would be supporting it if it was just the selfish reason of being able to just buy one of the games, but then I realize the most of the world's populace are idiots (I even call myself more idiotic than everyone else at times) and that this boycott simply started by people who over-reacted and simply want something to complain about in their hollow lives.