Valve Wants Customer Disputes in Small Claims Court

[gardian06]

realistically its things like this that make me wonder why no one has requested an antitrust suit be set against them, or like EA (if the anger is so great against them) for that matter. if the US government files the case then no TOS/EULA can stop it, and then every user of the service is a viable plaintiff/witness, and corporations go down in flames in antitrust suits.

I mean right at the line of "you forfeit all right to refund at point of transaction" is an antitrust claim right away. not to mention that it could even destroy the ability for publishers to set forth things like EULAs in there entirety.

so to those people who just want to complain on the internet: stop it, or contact the BBB, or FTC, and submit this SHIT to them with the note "think if this was attached to purchasing a car" to get the case filed which would freeze the requirement to sign a potentially illegal document, and might even make it illegal for them, EA, Microsoft, Sony, or any other to do anything similar.

 

[unstabLized]

So.. Why should I care? It's not like I have a fight going with Valve. They haven't screwed me over, which is rare. We're best buds. Doesn't concern me in the slightest. I needed customer support before after I was trying to gift a game to a friend and the gift didn't show up, and they handled the situation and worked it out. Every other company's done this and I haven't cared. Don't care here either.

 

[MysticToast]

I'm genuinely surprised so many people are upset about this.

I didn't care when Sony did it and I care just as much now as Valve does it.

 

[shintakie10]

I'm genuinely surprised so many people are upset about this.

I didn't care when Sony did it and I care just as much now as Valve does it.

My biggest gripe at the moment, outside of the normal this is a blatant violation of consumers rights schtick, is that if you do not agree with it you are completely locked out of playin your legally bought and owned games. This has always been the biggest stickin point against digital distribution vs retail. If the service you use suddenly disappears you lose access to the games you have legally bought and obtained. The argument against this was always that Valve (and possibly others?) have a system set-up so that if they inevitably fall you'll still be able to get your games for x amount of time so that you can never permanently lose your owned games.

However now they've gone completely against the spirit of that and made it as easy as not agreein with their policies.

Not only that, but they updated it with language that is completely and utterly illegal in the EU. Language that wasn't in there before was added in after a court rulin that made the act of blockin used games sales for digital content illegal. Seriously...they updated a EULA to literally do what was just made to be illegal. That's not smart. That's fuckin stupid. They then also updated it so you can't join in a class action lawsuit against them in order to protect themselves from the (rightful) lawsuits that would follow from their very much illegal act.

Fuck Valve and fuck this anti-consumerist bullshit.

 

[Snotnarok]

I'm lost why people are getting upset at the 'loss' of class action law suits, how many have you been involved in that this becomes a deal breaker?

 

[Snotnarok]

I'm lost why people are getting upset at the 'loss' of class action law suits, how many have you been involved in that this becomes a deal breaker?

Pretty much every job I've worked at involved a class action lawsuit due to management manipulating employees hours that prevented them overtime, lack of raises despite in a contract and many other details that would honestly take too much time to list.

So yeah there is actually an importance for class action lawsuits to exist. Also I know people do hate them because they think of the money that goes to the lawyer and very little goes to the individuals involved but I also don't think they understand how expensive the legal process actually is. Something as simple as requesting a copy of a transcript for a day in court can cost thousands of dollars because one is not allowed a digital record thus making the value of said copy extremely expensive. We aren't talking about kinko's either but actually having to go through the city or state to actually get them to create those copies and then and only then can said documents be created in a digital format.

Class action lawsuits get a bad rap because people are always thinking about the money and who gets it instead of actually understanding the rights and legal precedence that is set so said companies can't repeat the same atrocity against the consumers or employees.

A thought out answer, I was hoping for one of these rather than "cause it is stoopid". I guess I can see where you're coming from but I can't imagine this sorta thing holding up really considering it literally just says you can't sue us. Then again I'm no lawyer, I just don't see how something like that could even stick.

Either way thanks for the decent answer so I can stroke my beard and nod, get a decent idea why someone would be upset, yadda, yadda.

Yeah I guess those kinds of lawsuits do have a bit of a bad rap given they always seem to be tied to someone who stubbed their toe and because the company didn't have a "Warning don't stub your toe on the stairs" they get hundreds of people with stubbed toes who can't work anymore. ...I hope that came across the way I was trying to.

 

[Snotnarok]

A thought out answer, I was hoping for one of these rather than "cause it is stoopid". I guess I can see where you're coming from but I can't imagine this sorta thing holding up really considering it literally just says you can't sue us. Then again I'm no lawyer, I just don't see how something like that could even stick.

Either way thanks for the decent answer so I can stroke my beard and nod, get a decent idea why someone would be upset, yadda, yadda.

Yeah I guess those kinds of lawsuits do have a bit of a bad rap given they always seem to be tied to someone who stubbed their toe and because the company didn't have a "Warning don't stub your toe on the stairs" they get hundreds of people with stubbed toes who can't work anymore. ...I hope that came across the way I was trying to.

I understand why people hate class action lawsuits cause let's be honest there is always someone being a complete ballard and abusing rights or manipulating rights not how they were intended to be used. Also for a good deal of people when they actually question the justice they receive when the class action lawsuit is ruled in their favor there is no feeling of dramatic change that affects their life or any meaningful restitution to all the hardship they had to endure and yet get angry when they find out the monetary amount the lawyer made in relation to the small check they receive. These people often forget that justice doesn't always result in some big payout and we do honestly wish for that financial justice that would change our lives.

The best way to look at class action lawsuits is really like everything else, on a case by case basis. After all in each class action lawsuit I always had the opportunity to opt-out or opt-in and a form of contact. Some class action lawsuits are idiotic and some are actually good while others are a necessary evil.

But to be able to have the right to any sort of legal process is most important be it class action or small claims because it is the the judicial system we trust to ensure that opportunity to justice instead of a different set of rules set by a private company to where their profit and survival as a business relies on contracts to be hired by said companies that act on the companies behalf instead of getting justice from our government. While there is certainly a need for arbiters the Supreme court ruling effectively started to make our judicial system not needed yet a good deal of cases will often result in a negotiation not requiring an actual trial to occur.

As for my bias, I'm more pissed that when the ATT v Concepcion case was happening I am still outraged at the family and lawyer that kept appealing despite losing over and over again yet constantly getting warnings that their case did not have the right setting for the consumer to win as the thirty dollars was a tax that the family didn't want to pay. And losing that case on the federal level made a bigger impact to our justice system and society in favor of extreme capitalism than most people will ever realize.

Only good thing for me is that I can honestly walk away from Steam because while I own 54 games they were all games I bought on sale and honestly wouldn't miss if I had to jump ship because I beat about 90% of the games I purchased. It's the same reason why I won't agree to the TOS of microsoft's live service because while Valve may only do video games for now, microsoft does A LOT more than games and agreeing to that TOS is related to all of microsoft and not just the Live service. I may someday decide to waive my rights but for now I wanna wait a while and see what comes of it and if there is any legal challenges that will demand such change.

At least there is Gamer's Gate and I'm sure I can find other digital platforms for PC gaming if I look hard enough.

I've no real clue on class action lawsuits and had no real opinion either way, just knew they were abused a bit, but what isn't? Seriously what isn't abused now a days?

I was going to sue my previous employers for not paying, however it was stacking to not be worth it. Only thing annoys me is they're still using the label I designed and worked hard on but got nothing for.

I don't see myself jumping ship on valve because they're not dumb, they'll see this kinda reaction and change it. I'm sure there's a reason they did it and it's not just because they don't want to get sued, they don't operate like a normal company and I'm half suspecting they're doing the usual-testing the waters.

 

[robert01]

The only people this clause really effects is their American Customers. My understanding is that the EU has consumer laws in place, many provinces in Canada have laws in place that stop this, and even fucking Brazil has consumer laws in place that stop this.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

A lot of people are saying that they'll stop using Steam because of this. Which is fair enough, but it's much harder when you have more than $1000 worth of shit on there. Or you use it as your IM of choice. It's times like this I wish the Steam storefront and the Steam client were better separated as entities, but I guess that's the whole point, isn't it.

I love Valve. They've done a lot of good for PC gaming and they definitely seem like smart people, and they no doubt care for their customers. But everything they do, all I can think is that the only reason they care is because that's more profitable for them. It doesn't personally effect me that they've written in a clause like this, but it's still pretty awful that it's there, and it does paint a fairly scary picture overall. I trust Valve with this - they've earned my trust - but that doesn't mean they can do no wrong, and it certainly doesn't mean they can't abuse that trust.

I'm approaching this subject with trepidation. Y'all should too.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Yeah they're only doing this because of the new EU decision. This really shows it when they add in several clauses on the resale of games specifically for the EU and I'm not happy about them stopping people from the region locking thing either. I'm not a fan of charging more because you can unless there is a reason such as VAT levels.

I'm not going to stop using Steam but I am going to be buying less games on Steam whenever possible and try buy for Gamer's Gate or GoG. I have no problem waiting. That said Valve does have my trust for being smart with what they do with the sales so I'll see how this goes before I decide to completely stop with Steam.

As well as that I understand a lot of money in those goes to Lawyers when it shouldn't but I don't agree with stopping people from having the choice to do it.

 

[viranimus]

Why is this such a hard thing to understand.

It is absolutely no different than if Valve demanded you give up your right to habeus corpus in order to continue accessing your legally purchased licenses, and then hijacking your account and holding it hostage until you agree.

It does not matter in the slightest if "valve would never do that" because Valve just did that. Its the fact that your rights are being taken away if you agree, and more to the point if you agree your also taking away MY rights as well as every other gamer because your giving this traction and allowing them to do it.

Despite how many times it has to be said... Here we are. This is no slippery slope argument. This is the edge of the glacier and Valve is the latest to try to push the gamers over the edge.

First, every gamer needs to contact valve support and demand a full refund for their entire library of games because of the actions valve has taken against an account in good standing.

Then there needs to be a class action suit over this just to drive the point home.



I cannot stress this enough.. if you are a gamer, you need to get off your ass and do something about this. It effects you... even if you cannot comprehend how it does, it effects you and every gamer you know. Period. Doing nothing only ensures that every gamer loses.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Valve is going to pay for your dispute, no matter the outcome? That's awfully generous. I wouldn't wouldn't be surprised if they get sued over people not being able to have class action lawsuit though. Luckily, I trust most gamers are lazy/incompetent so i can see where that would be going:

Spoiler

 

[BartyMae]

I'll be honest - I love Steam and all of its upfront services. The way it handles games, sales, friends, events, etc. is awesome. But all this background stuff - while not really affecting me - is beginning to worry me. Lack of fair prices, lack of region free games, silence on their whole supposed "we'll patch the games to be Steam free in the case of company failure" policy, and now this. Again, doesn't really affect me, but still worrisome.

 

[Baresark]

Lotta drama on this thread.

First, class action suits don't benefit consumers at all. The right to sue individually is much better for the consumer. It's really a mixed basket. It's more work to pursue, but Valve will foot the bill so long as it's not considered frivolous by the judge.

Second, them footing the bill is more likely to get them to change an internal policy than a class action suit would be. It's set up so they foot it no matter what, even if they win. In a class action, that is not he case at all. It's footed by the lawyers but they stand to make a sweet and tidy profit from all of your nerd rage.

Third, it's like negotiating your own contract: it's more work, but you benefit much more from it. You are not stuck to what others decide is fair compensation, you can decide that for yourself, at least to a greater degree.

And finally: they did not say you could not pursue legal action, but if 500 people got a problem they can pursue it individually, which is actually much much much harder on Valve, as opposed to a class action suit which they only need one team of lawyers to conduct business on.

But, I get where people are coming from. You are responding to them telling you that you are not allowed to do something. But people need to think more about this before jumping the gun.

Edit: When all of this is said and done, if a group of people decide to pursue a class action lawsuit against valve, even after the new EULA, no one can stop them. And a judge could decide that isn't legal and void the contract themselves.

But, people are welcome to freak out.

 

[Naqel]

Please explain this logic to me.

Sony only did such a change to protect themselves from hundreds of unhappy people after the PS3 update that removed Linux compatibility. They were left with no other choice following the mistake that they made.

EA not only has a history of being dicks, they also saw the potential to cover their ass in case someone ever got really upset over the other stupid stuff they've been doing(like having you install spyware).

Valve is pretty much built on consumer loyalty, and goodwill. As a company, they do everything a company can do to help the medium go forward, and just about the only flaw they have people ever hear or care about, is that Half-Life 3 isn't out yet.

I mean, sure, all three cases is basically the companies covering their asses, but whereas Sony had to use it's hands in a hurry, Valve did it with a sheet of cloth, while EA did it by shoving it's ass in our faces, so we get a better smell of their shit.