Valve: Xbox Live Rules are a "Train Wreck"

[halbarad]

How can you blame valve for wanting to give things for free?

It baffles me really. MS are adamant that updates past a certain amount have to be charged for, that's simply so they can get their grubby mitts on some cash. Valve want to stick to their standards of giving things away for free, MS say no, valve gets moaned at.


Great logic!

 

[GahzlyGriffon]

ond this is why smart people play pc
even mac users get more than xbox these days.

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

The rules are there for a reason, policy disagreements between a privately owned company with a couple hundred employees and an $86 billion corporation don't make the rules a "train wreck."

Yet Sony don't seem to give them that problem. Wonder why?

Because Sony has a slightly different policy, they want a more open platform. There are benefits to openness and benefits to restriction for the end user.

Valve isn't a holy paragon to be held as an example for all others. Their way isn't the right way, it's simply one way. A way that has pros and cons for both the producer and consumer.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

It's not just that simple though. We've had two updates in the last day just to fix niggling problems, and Valve would have to reverse-engineer everything they've done in the past two years down to the Xbox point to release an update, WHICH may then re-need an update or more.

Financially, with no recompense, that's commercial suicide. Especially when MS can just say "No".

Fixing the system to work with an entirely different OS (And yeah, the Xbox is now far from the PC) would be a Herculean task, with no support, and little - if any - benefit. Valve are just standing up and saying "This is bullshit. Let us do our job properly and we'll do it. Otherwise, blow me."

In not quite so many words.

We as in PC players I assume?

Well TF2 on the console has been out a long time. I know Valve work slowly and delay themselves all the time but reverse engineering patches wouldn't take that long.

2 updates don't cost $86 billion to release. SO if they screwed up on the first one (amazing work if they managed to do that) then releasing another one wouldn't break the bank.

And fixing it to work with a different OS... well they released it on Xbox didn't they? They've released 1 or 2 most unhelpful patches before. Why not now?

Yeah Valve are standing up and saying. Xbox make me charge to update my software. So f*ck 360 players. They can go without.

Valve need to get off their high horse... they make it sound like they're 'making a stand' but to me it sounds like they're getting pissy and then refusing to fix what they broke.

 

[Eri]

Yeah the Xbox Live rules kinda suck. More than I thought I guess if they're the specific reason Valve can't update TF 2.

There's no reason Valve can't update TF2 on the 360. They would just need to follow Microsoft's rules (because you know, it's Microsoft's platform). As far as I know the rules aren't that restrictive, just things like requiring certification for the update so that it doesn't negatively affect the console or LIVE in any way.

So as far as I can tell the issue Valve is having is that they want their DLC to just be updates. However Microsoft won't allow them to do this, as Xbox LIVE requires people to download all updates for a game when they play it while connected to LIVE. They don't want Valve's giant updates to be required because not all 360 users have hard drives and the internal memory isn't sufficient for anything larger than code modifications.

So for Valve to release all the PC TF2 content on the 360 they would have to create one or more game updates which are required and release the various maps and character changes as DLC. Depending on how many packages of DLC they create they could have problems with overly dividing the game's community, they certainly would have run into problems if they released concurrent with the PC updates.

So in my interpretation of events it's entirely Valve's fault up to this point. That's a controversial way of looking at things because of the next complication. Microsoft would probably have a fee for hosting the content on the Xbox LIVE servers. In order to make this arrangement affordable Valve would probably have to charge for the DLC, which is something they are firmly against. Valve probably could offer it for free if they hosted the content on their own servers but Xbox LIVE rules prevent that from happening.

One other rule Microsoft has is that content that can give achievement points must have a price tag. There are only a few exceptions. However I'm sure this wouldn't really be a problem, Valve could just take out the achievements.

Regardless, I see the lack of TF2 DLC or updates on the Xbox 360 being mostly the fault Valve's aloof attitude and refusal to compromise. The rules are there for a reason, policy disagreements between a privately owned company with a couple hundred employees and an $86 billion corporation don't make the rules a "train wreck."

This entire post is just full of wrong. Microsoft wants to charge, Valve doesn't. Microsoft's fault. The end. There's no debating what is fact.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

This entire post is just full of wrong. Microsoft wants to charge, Valve doesn't. Microsoft's fault. The end. There's no debating what is fact.

Paying money!!! F*ck our customers why would we do that!

 

[AfterAscon]

So, hows the PS3 version of Team Fortress 2 doing? Based on the arguements in here it should have received all the updates the x360 didn't receive. Right?

 

[vallorn]

I hope Valve doesn't start to take shit on the 360, though, that would end up being bad for the customer, and that is no fair.

didnt hear you complaining when they took shit on the PS3...

anyway you guys got L4D1&2 so its all good!

 

[Optimus Hagrid]

However, this is no excuse for the lack of map packs,

Ker-ching!

or even bloody bug fixes.

Ker-ching. Pay up.

Don't forget the horrible class limits update, which not only made it even more difficult to find a playable game

Ker-Ching!

but also prevented game modding

Ker-Ching!

, and ruining possibly the only chance 360 players will get to play Payload.

Ker-Ching!

This is why i mad at Valve.

Shouldn't you be mad at MS for not allowing Valve to give you this stuff for free, like they want to? Like they do on the PC?

MS doesn't charge for bug fixes. Only Valve to to blame for the horribly buggy state they released TF2 in. The whole "Valve wanting to give us free things" is undermined by the fact they charged for L4D DLC. Also, quite a lot of 360 players would be very happy to pay for a map pack, given the fact most of us have been waiting for three years.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

So, hows the PS3 version of Team Fortress 2 doing? Based on the arguements in here it should have received all the updates the x360 didn't receive. Right?

Hell yeah it should've.

I don't own a PS3 I just think it's annoying as hell that Valve release half finished and broken crap then don't patch it.

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

This entire post is just full of wrong. Microsoft wants to charge, Valve doesn't. Microsoft's fault. The end. There's no debating what is fact.

Sure, that applies to maps, hats, and weapons. However, it doesn't excuse Valve from releasing basic bug fixes and balance changes. Microsoft doesn't charge Xbox users for updates, they charge for content.

It also doesn't change the fact that Valve decided it would be better for Xbox 360 users to not have the new content at all than have it for a price. Where's the logic in that? Is Valve's image as the Santa Claus of first-person shooters worth a large group of dissatisfied customers? It's not like they couldn't say: "Hey guys, it's Microsoft who wants you to pay for this. We'd just as soon give it to you for free but those are their rules."

 

[Blazingdragoon04]

This isn't a failure on Valve's part, it's a failure on microsoft's part. Valve has said in the past that it doesn't want to charge for all the updates for TF2, that's why they hand them all out for free and partially why they have such a devoted fan base: because they don't charge an arm and a leg for DLC. If they were to release all the updates for the 360 you'd probably end up paying around 100 bucks just for the amount of updates in order to get the 360 version to where the PC version is, which puts a VERY bad taste in 360 owners mouths.

But still, I would hope they could resolve the differences to at least patch the versions; we already paid for the game so I would assume that a non-broken game would be what more people were attempting to purchase.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

This isn't a failure on Valve's part, it's a failure on microsoft's part. Valve has said in the past that it doesn't want to charge for all the updates for TF2, that's why they hand them all out for free and partially why they have such a devoted fan base: because they don't charge an arm and a leg for DLC. If they were to release all the updates for the 360 you'd probably end up paying around 100 bucks just for the amount of updates in order to get the 360 version to where the PC version is, which puts a VERY bad taste in 360 owners mouths.

But still, I would hope they could resolve the differences to at least patch the versions; we already paid for the game so I would assume that a non-broken game would be what more people were attempting to purchase.

I would pay for new content if I wanted it badly enough. Valve refusing to release things just because Microsoft wants to charge is a dick-move to consumers.

Also yeah seriously... they should patch it.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Valve isn't a holy paragon to be held as an example for all others. Their way isn't the right way, it's simply one way. A way that has pros and cons for both the producer and consumer.

No-one's saying it's a paragon. Just that they want to give their free stuff away for free, and are prepared to fight the obscenely wealthy MS to do so.

Yeah Valve are standing up and saying. Xbox make me charge to update my software. So f*ck 360 players. They can go without.

Not quite. They're saying "Fuck MS if you won't let us update your platform's games for free". Owners are just getting caught in the brawl.

From the interview

Gabe Newell: That?s why we?re really happy with the current situation with the PS3? We?re solving it now in a way that is going to work for our customers, rather than assuming something is going to emerge later that will allow us to fix this.

PC Gamer: Was the mistake on the Xbox side to think that Microsoft would let you update it more often?
...
Erik Johnson: I mean it?s a trade-off. I don?t know how to evaluate that trade-off today. TF2 on the PC side has delivered a huge amount of value, but we?ve screwed up on the other side.

They admit they ballsed up. They admit they'd like to fix it, but they'd have to remove budget from the other developments.

Here's an example: The Escapist, in a dastardly change of heart, charge you 1 cent every time you want to edit a post. You complain, as I'm sure most of us would, and someone quotes you saying "You can't afford a cent? Cheapskate."

Now, if you're saving up for a new car, every cent sure does count. Even if you need 10,000,000 of them to buy a car. But if you type "Valve rocks" instead of "Valve sucks" and you want to change it - around 5pm GMT on ZP day - are you really gonna want to pay for that tiny edit?

 

[DazBurger]

I agree that Microsoft needs to loosen on their rules a bit... but I don't get it.

Valve own a massively used PC game platform plus loads of highly rated titles that millions of people have bought and played regularly...

Yet they won't shell out for one god damn update?

I mean yeah... the rules are strict and bad and blah de blah. But can't they take a small wad of money from the Valve cash pile and throw out an update? I mean really are they that stuck up about this?

Cant ya just be happy that someone stands up against MS's "no free dlc policy"?

 

[OneBig Man]

Valve isn't a holy paragon to be held as an example for all others. Their way isn't the right way, it's simply one way. A way that has pros and cons for both the producer and consumer.

No-one's saying it's a paragon. Just that they want to give their free stuff away for free, and are prepared to fight the obscenely wealthy MS to do so.

Yeah Valve are standing up and saying. Xbox make me charge to update my software. So f*ck 360 players. They can go without.

Not quite. They're saying "Fuck MS if you won't let us update your platform's games for free". Owners are just getting caught in the brawl.

From the interview

Gabe Newell: That?s why we?re really happy with the current situation with the PS3? We?re solving it now in a way that is going to work for our customers, rather than assuming something is going to emerge later that will allow us to fix this.

PC Gamer: Was the mistake on the Xbox side to think that Microsoft would let you update it more often?
...
Erik Johnson: I mean it?s a trade-off. I don?t know how to evaluate that trade-off today. TF2 on the PC side has delivered a huge amount of value, but we?ve screwed up on the other side.

They admit they ballsed up. They admit they'd like to fix it, but they'd have to remove budget from the other developments.

Here's an example: The Escapist, in a dastardly change of heart, charge you 1 cent every time you want to edit a post. You complain, as I'm sure most of us would, and someone quotes you saying "You can't afford a cent? Cheapskate."

Now, if you're saving up for a new car, every cent sure does count. Even if you need 10,000,000 of them to buy a car. But if you type "Valve rocks" instead of "Valve sucks" and you want to change it - around 5pm GMT on ZP day - are you really gonna want to pay for that tiny edit?

Im pretty sure putting out a half assed game is more than a type-o.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Only Valve to to blame for the horribly buggy state they released TF2 in.

Which they said was a mistake.

The whole "Valve wanting to give us free things" is undermined by the fact they charged for L4D DLC.

We got it free from Valve. MS charged you lot.

Also, quite a lot of 360 players would be very happy to pay for a map pack, given the fact most of us have been waiting for three years.

And you'd fit it where? Especially as a lot of the balance issues rely on updates that consoles just can't have because of the memory limitations. So Valve would have to reverse engineer the CORE of TF2 to reduce it and then reverse all the balance issues, and then re-assemble the bug-fixes/balance issues based on the NEW core; and then make it buyable; and then make it so that people without the fixes had to get it, and then...

Damn, Gabe would be better off just inviting all the TF2 - 360 owners around for a slap-up meal. Lot less complaints and a LOT less work.

And you know Gabe knows his food.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

Not quite. They're saying "Fuck MS if you won't let us update your platform's games for free". Owners are just getting caught in the brawl.

From the interview

Gabe Newell: That?s why we?re really happy with the current situation with the PS3? We?re solving it now in a way that is going to work for our customers, rather than assuming something is going to emerge later that will allow us to fix this.

PC Gamer: Was the mistake on the Xbox side to think that Microsoft would let you update it more often?
...
Erik Johnson: I mean it?s a trade-off. I don?t know how to evaluate that trade-off today. TF2 on the PC side has delivered a huge amount of value, but we?ve screwed up on the other side.

They admit they ballsed up. They admit they'd like to fix it, but they'd have to remove budget from the other developments.

Here's an example: The Escapist, in a dastardly change of heart, charge you 1 cent every time you want to edit a post. You complain, as I'm sure most of us would, and someone quotes you saying "You can't afford a cent? Cheapskate."

Now, if you're saving up for a new car, every cent sure does count. Even if you need 10,000,000 of them to buy a car. But if you type "Valve rocks" instead of "Valve sucks" and you want to change it - around 5pm GMT on ZP day - are you really gonna want to pay for that tiny edit?

Why would we pay for things to make our customers happy? What do we look like? A games company!

It's not just that... I don't give a shit about MS and Valves personal dick waving contest with each other.

I want them to fix the game they released.

So they spend a few weeks and a tiny bit of money making a patch then patching TF2.

Seriously there is nothing stopping them other than being cheap.

And as long as I can pay by putting 1p coins into a machine next to me then hell yeah I would.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Im pretty sure putting out a half assed game is more than a type-o.

Really? To some it's a way of life [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1976].

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

Cant ya just be happy that someone stands up against MS's "no free dlc policy"?

Not when they released a bug filled game and now refuse to patch it...

And Microsoft release loads of free DLC...