Valve: Xbox Live Rules are a "Train Wreck"

[RanD00M]

I mean, come on, free stuff! I have never, ever had any problems with it's online system beyond minor things and when my whole internet connection is messing around, and it's free. XBL costs at least £40 a year and I prefer PSN's game library. It lends itself much better to developers like Valve that have lots of online stuff.

I wasn't objecting. It just felt so sarcastic to me.
I have nothing against PSN nor VaLVE. I actually enjoy both frequently.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

Yeah, that's why it's there, Micro$oft is annoying as hell to a lot of developers I would imagine...

Then do it for Son¥ and Nint?ndo... they're just as bad.

 

[Motakikurushi]

Without the confident modding community of the PC version, there is no significant reason to update the 360 version anyway. I truly sympathise for them, but Xbox Live users are probably still repeating themselves by constantly playing Modern Warfare 2 without acknowledgement of a new multiplayer title being released. It's just such a dry, stale community that the devoted Valve fans who use an Xbox 360 have already purchased the title for their computers anyway. Besides, multiplayer is free on a PC.

 

[mrdude2010]

I agree that Microsoft needs to loosen on their rules a bit... but I don't get it.

Valve own a massively used PC game platform plus loads of highly rated titles that millions of people have bought and played regularly...

Yet they won't shell out for one god damn update?

I mean yeah... the rules are strict and bad and blah de blah. But can't they take a small wad of money from the Valve cash pile and throw out an update? I mean really are they that stuck up about this?

Valve doesnt have to pay but its a xboxlive rule that microsoft that updates with alot of content (determined by microsoft) aren't allowed to be updates.
The updates are only allowed to be sold as dlc so the players that payed for the new dlc and thus weapons would get an advantage for money. Its not about bribe money that you pay microsoft XD
Another example is castle crashers, they wanted to release the dlc for free but microsoft determined a price for it and dictated that it was payed dlc.

and this is bullshit. microsoft is a multibillion dollar company they can quit nitpicking about petty updates and game content that was always intended to be on the original disk anyway.

 

[Spawny0908]

Yeah the Xbox Live rules kinda suck. More than I thought I guess if they're the specific reason Valve can't update TF 2.

There's no reason Valve can't update TF2 on the 360. They would just need to follow Microsoft's rules (because you know, it's Microsoft's platform). As far as I know the rules aren't that restrictive, just things like requiring certification for the update so that it doesn't negatively affect the console or LIVE in any way.

So as far as I can tell the issue Valve is having is that they want their DLC to just be updates. However Microsoft won't allow them to do this, as Xbox LIVE requires people to download all updates for a game when they play it while connected to LIVE. They don't want Valve's giant updates to be required because not all 360 users have hard drives and the internal memory isn't sufficient for anything larger than code modifications.

So for Valve to release all the PC TF2 content on the 360 they would have to create one or more game updates which are required and release the various maps and character changes as DLC. Depending on how many packages of DLC they create they could have problems with overly dividing the game's community, they certainly would have run into problems if they released concurrent with the PC updates.

So in my interpretation of events it's entirely Valve's fault up to this point. That's a controversial way of looking at things because of the next complication. Microsoft would probably have a fee for hosting the content on the Xbox LIVE servers. In order to make this arrangement affordable Valve would probably have to charge for the DLC, which is something they are firmly against. Valve probably could offer it for free if they hosted the content on their own servers but Xbox LIVE rules prevent that from happening.

One other rule Microsoft has is that content that can give achievement points must have a price tag. There are only a few exceptions. However I'm sure this wouldn't really be a problem, Valve could just take out the achievements.

Regardless, I see the lack of TF2 DLC or updates on the Xbox 360 being mostly the fault Valve's aloof attitude and refusal to compromise. The rules are there for a reason, policy disagreements between a privately owned company with a couple hundred employees and an $86 billion corporation don't make the rules a "train wreck."

Well I feel they should just ask us. Valve is known for listening to their gamers and fans have a vote about how they should get the new TF2 content to us. That way if they end up having to charge for the content it is because WE wanted to. Which BTW I have no problem doing.

 

[Arehexes]

I know I'm not a big valve fan boy, but didn't EA port The Orange Box to the xbox 360 and PS3. So wouldn't it be EA's fault since they ported it not Valve.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

So they spend a few weeks and a tiny bit of money making a patch then patching TF2.

Ok, let's say Valve take a few weeks. What would that cost? Hmmmm. Let's say three weeks for Valve.

How many people on it? Well, let's say ten. That's probably a team.

So, that means Valve pay out 3 weeks of a 48 week yearly contract of

Spoiler: $60,000 a year

According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the 2002 median annual earnings of salaried computer programmers was $60,290. The middle 50 percent earned between $45,960 and $78,140 a year.

Valve -$50,000 and - 0.4% of their annual profit, as those programmers are engaged in bug fixes. (Difficult to estimate: Let's put them in the same bracket as Bioware, so $17,482 million profits...$70 million)

They have to pay MS for putting it up there, which won't be cheap. Let's say $5 per copy in circulation.(400 MS points). And say MS run a usual business model of 15% profit.

, so with the

Spoiler: 1.5 million sales

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/36952/The-Orange-Box-1-5-Million-Console-Sales-Significantly-More-On-PC

that makes
Valve: -$77.505 million - MS: +$1.125 million

Sounds like a bad business decision there.

BUT...Valve are willing to release it free, which means they're willing to take the $70.005 million loss, if only MS would change their rules to make bug-fixes free.

I hardly think that's a fair attack on Valve, don't you?

 

[Jack Mcslay]

Notice I said map pack, and not weapons, hats or other things that would exceed the 360's memory limit.

If TF2 runs on a PS3, which has half the ammount of ram as the X360 (the PS3 has, however, an extra dedicated 256MiB dedicated VRAM, while the X360 has a single shared 512MiB block), what would really stop them from adding stuff on the X360 version?

I don't own any version of TF2, but from my experience as a programmer, TF2 really doesn't look like the most memory-hungry game on the X360, nor are extra weapons elements that are largely relevant when it comes to RAM usage.

Does anyone know if PS3 TF2 has extra weapons and items? Because if so, there isn't a reason for the X360 version not to have them.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Unless you were being ironic or sarcastic. In which case ignore me!

Little bit of both, but you know we'll both be needing this release.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

Ok, let's say Valve take a few weeks. What would that cost? Hmmmm. Let's say three weeks for Valve.

How many people on it? Well, let's say ten. That's probably a team.

So, that means Valve pay out 3 weeks of a 48 week yearly contract of

Spoiler: $60,000 a year

According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the 2002 median annual earnings of salaried computer programmers was $60,290. The middle 50 percent earned between $45,960 and $78,140 a year.

Valve -$50,000 and - 0.4% of their annual profit, as those programmers are engaged in bug fixes. (Difficult to estimate: Let's put them in the same bracket as Bioware, so $17,482 million profits...$70 million)

They have to pay MS for putting it up there, which won't be cheap. Let's say $5 per copy in circulation.(400 MS points). And say MS run a usual business model of 15% profit.

, so with the

Spoiler: 1.5 million sales

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/36952/The-Orange-Box-1-5-Million-Console-Sales-Significantly-More-On-PC

that makes
Valve: -$77.505 million - MS: +$1.125 million

Sounds like a bad business decision there.

BUT...Valve are willing to release it free, which means they're willing to take the $70.005 million loss, if only MS would change their rules to make bug-fixes free.

I hardly think that's a fair attack on Valve, don't you?

I think that's an incredibly optimistic view of how much they spend on one update.

Considering they could have the current people working on TF2 hats to make it...

They want to release it for free. Well they can't! So get over it and support your games already.

Edit: Ohhhhh YOu're still talking about the content that we stopped talking about about a page ago...

For the last time [HEADING=1]I don't want the crappy content. I want bug and glitch fixes![/HEADING]

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I don't own any version of TF2, but from my experience as a programmer, TF2 really doesn't look like the most memory-hungry game on the X360, nor are extra weapons elements that are largely relevant when it comes to RAM usage.

My TF2 folder: 2.84 GB (3,060,784,424 bytes), so yeah.

 

[Optimus Hagrid]

Notice I said map pack, and not weapons, hats or other things that would exceed the 360's memory limit.

If TF2 runs on a PS3, which has half the ammount of ram as the X360 (the PS3 has, however, an extra dedicated 256MiB dedicated VRAM, while the X360 has a single shared 512MiB block), what would really stop them from adding stuff on the X360 version?

I don't own any version of TF2, but from my experience as a programmer, TF2 really doesn't look like the most memory-hungry game on the X360, nor are extra weapons elements that are largely relevant when it comes to RAM usage.

Does anyone know if PS3 TF2 has extra weapons and items? Because if so, there isn't a reason for the X360 version not to have them.

Actually, that is very interesting. I can't believe I never thought of it like that.

Oh, and the PS3 version of the game still has six-drum grenade launchers. I think it received one update.

 

[Optimus Hagrid]

I don't own any version of TF2, but from my experience as a programmer, TF2 really doesn't look like the most memory-hungry game on the X360, nor are extra weapons elements that are largely relevant when it comes to RAM usage.

My TF2 folder: 2.84 GB (3,060,784,424 bytes), so yeah.

You are confusing RAM with ROM. Stop it.

Wait, no, ignore this.

 

[Syntax Man]

Valve should tell that to DICE, seriously, there was a 'patch' for Bad Company 2 that was like 500Mb of free DLC goodness, there is no reason Valve could not follow suit.

 

[secretsantaone]

I don't own any version of TF2, but from my experience as a programmer, TF2 really doesn't look like the most memory-hungry game on the X360, nor are extra weapons elements that are largely relevant when it comes to RAM usage.

My TF2 folder: 2.84 GB (3,060,784,424 bytes), so yeah.

Don't forget all those tasty source engine files.

 

[Phoenixlight]

What are these rules that are preventing an update?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I think that's an incredibly optimistic view of how much they spend on one update.

But factually accurate as far as I could get.

Considering they could have the current people working on TF2 hats to make it...

You mean you want the PC modelling team to work on the limited Xbox memory profile? While working on their old jobs? Damn, you sound like my boss.

They want to release it for free. Well they can't! So get over it and support your games already.

As has been said, EA released it on the Xbox. And I believe there's a number of other games on the Xbox that don't work quite as intended...

You could perhaps ask THQ (Saints Row 2) and Rockstar(GTA Snore) when they're gonna fix their PC ports, for example.

For the last time [HEADING=1]I don't want the crappy content. I want bug and glitch fixes![/HEADING]

That IS the bug fixes. If you want content as well, you're gonna have to be paying the MS points.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

I think that's an incredibly optimistic view of how much they spend on one update.

But factually accurate as far as I could get.

Considering they could have the current people working on TF2 hats to make it...

You mean you want the PC modelling team to work on the limited Xbox memory profile? While working on their old jobs? Damn, you sound like my boss.

They want to release it for free. Well they can't! So get over it and support your games already.

As has been said, EA released it on the Xbox. And I believe there's a number of other games on the Xbox that don't work quite as intended...

You could perhaps ask THQ (Saints Row 2) and Rockstar(GTA Snore) when they're gonna fix their PC ports, for example.

Firstly let me direct you to this:

Ohhhhh YOu're still talking about the content that we stopped talking about about a page ago...

For the last time [HEADING=1]I don't want the crappy content. I want bug and glitch fixes![/HEADING]

Now onto your points.

I could ask those companies. But right now I'm asking Valve so that is irrelevant.

And I want whatever team they stuck on making the orange box for the 360 to be stuck on making patches for the orange box for the 360.

Seriously... being payed to finish the jobs they started? What is this blatant logic!

 

[obisean]

Did it occur it him to try and work out this issues with Microsoft?

I'm pretty sure that this would be the first time he's heard this idea. You should totally write him a letter and demand a paycheck.

 

[TimeLord]

Unless you were being ironic or sarcastic. In which case ignore me!

Little bit of both, but you know we'll both be needing this release.

I have been getting as much scrap metal as physically possible to make me a fez!