Ever ask yourself why you make the arguments you do in response?Vault101 said:
My amazing psychic powers tell me to expect "yes, and it's because I want equality for everyone".
PS: sorry for putting words in your mouth with that second line.
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My amazing psychic powers tell me to expect "yes, and it's because I want equality for everyone".
PS: sorry for putting words in your mouth with that second line.
Joke's on you, Enya always makes me angry!Vault101 said:
I'm surprised you didn't get more into "dictating how women feel on the issue," which I suppose falls under your first volley of dismissive examples.
You also forgot to add in the attitude before WWI. You had global empires that sucked resources from poorer countries but Germany was not allowed to expand because it had been only around for 40 years. Even the Dutch still had a globe spanning empire. Then those same empire charged an insane premium for those resources. Which was perpetuated after the war (and the reason empires slowly disbanded after WWII).Alek_the_Great said:
Then you also need to go back further to the Prussian Electors as they went wildly (between generations) from calm thought to hyper masculinity. Everything was made efficient starting with the schooling system (the talk of the world in the 1800). All because of Napoleon, Germanic state bickering, international shifting alliance seeming daily and possibly way back to how the Germanic states were treated during the 100 year war - city of thousands would literally vanish overnight by the international armies crisscrossing Germanic lands instead of fighting the war in their won countries. Without natural borders, Germany made its efficient especially the army.
But once you start getting to the 1400s and how a society's masculinity and efficiency was defined, you need to turn to the "Muslim nation" at the time and their loss at Vienna. I don't know how Ottomans/ Turkey got out of Versailles seeming without the impact that Germany had.
well its a little more complex than that its more about being honestJack T. Pumpkin said:
going back to my Eminem example if I honestly thought the guys schtick was purely an act and not the result of a troubled background then I would say so...but I honestly don't, I don't think I could give him the benefit of the doubt if I wanted to
some people (being rabid fans) would becomew hostile if you in anyway acused Eminem of being sexist
and if you asked me say a couple of years ago I would have defended Mass Effect to the death
I'm not saying I'm completly objective or perfect or whatever (only Jim is perfect) and I'll admit this whole gender thing IS my one rage button, I'm just saying people jump on the defensive when theres really no need
LostGryphon said:
[img/]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/galv5Il.gif[/img]
I don't think he is trying to show that, or maybe he is and he is just super bad at it. I don't really know what your first part means so I can't really comment, what precedents?Alek_the_Great said:
Either way it's riddled with inaccuracies, hysteria and exceptionalism and really can't be arsed arguing with them as it's clear it will get me no where. I can just be happy knowing that we do have feminism and it's alive and strong.
Actually, I agree: a case like the one you mentioned would be a terrible perversion of justice.Alek_the_Great said:
Where I suspect that we differ is that, whereas I am sure that most feminists would agree with you too, and would also like to see institutional change, you probably believe that feminists are actively working to perpetuate sexist family law.
Sorry if I put words in your mouth.
That's kind of the problem though. Who gets to decide if there is or not really a need?Vault101 said:
I get where you're coming from, and being tired of threads about sexism. I've been lurking long enough to know there's one every few weeks, and they all look exactly the same, descend into a flamewar by page 3, and end up locked by 10, with a few bans thrown around for good measure.
But you can't (or rather shouldn't, you can if most of the population agrees with you, or you own the website) control conversations by deciding that certain opinions shouldn't be expressed because you disagree with them or don't like the people who express them.
Oh, and GabeN is our Lord and Savior, Jim is a false idol.
I won't speak for what Vault actually meant, but "diversity" doesn't necessarily mean "male/female".SNCommand said:
Ten to twenty years ago, we had games like Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon, Banjo-Kazooie, Diddy Kong Racing, Jak & Daxter, games based on the Looney Tunes, Donkey Kong, Sly Cooper, Sonic the Hedgehog, Gex, Frogger, Ecco the Dolphin, Sam & Max, Yoshi's Story, Worms, Primal Rage, Star Fox, MediEvil, Grim Fandango, Earthworm Jim, Giants: Citizen Kabuto, Star Wars Episode I Racer, Klonoa, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Super Monkey Ball, Rachet & Clank, Katamari Damacy...
And while sure, some of those franchises are still around today, most of them aren't getting the sort of treatment they deserve.
And, that list is completely ignoring the rather large volume of other games where you were playing a human who happened to not be a grizzled middle-aged male. Of which we still admittedly get quite a few, yes, but in the past few years it's been a little bit more difficult to see the forest through all the scruffy gritty white faces and brown hair.
Let's not forget that just because something might not fall under the umbrella of "a feminist issue" doesn't mean that it's something that a feminist would just ignore.Alek_the_Great said:
For example, the high rates of male suicide and depression may not be a feminist issue (I mean, I think it is but that's not really what we're talking about here), but that doesn't mean people who identify as feminists ignore or disregard it. It might not be right at the top of their "things to talk about" list, but if you brought it up with someone, and assuming they were a balanced human being, they aren't doing to dismiss it.
A completely inappropriate analogy would be if somebody was talking to be about corruption or cheating in high level sports. I don't care about sports at all but if I heard that a championship team was found cheated, I'd think it was pretty fucked up.
Yeah there are inequalities that men suffer (much fewer than women but again that isn't really what we're talking about...), but I absolutely disagree that feminists don't particualarly care.
May I ask what your point here is, carnex? Are you arguing that feminism is a bad thing and women do not deserve equal protection and equal opportunities under the law because of these things, or are you arguing that feminism as a label is bad while accepting that the things feminism stands for are good, or what?carnex said:
None of the words you said are applied exclusively to men. Women can be misogynists; see also the women who argue in favor of burqas or the women who called Rihanna a lying **** who deserved to get beat by Chris Brown. Women can be basement-dwellers; see also the crazy cat lady. Women can be nerds; see also Felicia Day for a famous example. Women can be sexist; see also the female anchors on Fox and Friends as they dismiss Senator Gillibrand's complaints about her treatment at the hands of her male coworkers.Incisive said:
That you think this movement is about putting penises in vaginas says a lot more about you and your motivations than it does the motivations of anyone involved. No one fears theft like a thief.Incisive said:
The very moment you are subjected to the same physical, social, and financial stresses of carrying a growing baby inside your body that a woman is subjected to, I will feel some sympathy. Until then, I cannot find it in me to pity you. This kind of complaint is nothing more than a desire to claim equal privileges in a situation in which you do not play an equal role or bear equal responsibilities. It is insupportable.Incisive said:
The former is obviously wrong, but I can definitely understand the latter.Alek_the_Great said:
Any discussion about women's issues will have people coming in to say "what about the menz?". Unfortunately, someone trying to bring up a relevant point about men to the conversation is likely to be confused with those.
What's a "good amount" though? Above 50%? 60%? 80%? Where are these numbers coming from?Alek_the_Great said:
Feminists seem to be, as the backhanded title implies, more intuned or sensitive to social justice issues. Like, I feel like a feminist, at least a 3rd wave feminist, is going to be more in tune with issues like race and homophobia and class issues and mental health. Have a look at the Ferguson incident for example, I'm confident that a lot of people who were making noise about the injustices would consider themselves feminists. We have a racial issue involving a man, yet it seems from where I'm sitting, people who happen to consider themselves feminists are getting really upset about this (if I can be snide for a moment, I haven't heard anything from the mens rights camp about this.. I guess they'd have to stop moaning about women for a second and actually deal with the rights of men).
It's the same with mental health, it's the same with class, it's the same with lgbt rights. Like I said, they might not be specifically feminist issues, but as a balanced human who is in tune with social justice, they are still worth discussing. And, from my viewpoint (boo anecdotal evidence) it is discussed by way way way way way way way more feminists than it is dismissed by feminists.
#JimB said:
I think he's pointing out that issues that primarily affect women tend to be feminist's focus, whereas those that affect men are largely ignored, despite feminist's claims to want equality for men and women.
Anyway, I'm backing out of this thread before it erupts...
I would think that men specifically attempting to tell women what women wanted would be fairly on topic and would ostensibly be uncontroversial.Vault101 said:
You made two connected statements implying that one comes from another. Those two statements are not interconnected in such a way. Please don't give my words meaning you want to see in them. Context was clear, people asked me why I don't see feminism as movement for equality, I presented them with 3, arguably 4 cases that came as result of strong political influence of feminist movement that puts one gender in highly favorable position to other. That is exactly contrary to equality.JimB said:
Not to state my position in relevance to this in somewhat rough bulletpoints
- I believe that all human beings deserve equal rights and equal treatment under the law regardless to gender, race, sex and any other mental or physical classification that can be applied.
- I equally believe that people deserve equal treatment by their fellow humans up to the point where they themselves commit transgression against another person's rights. Even then justice is not in the hand of individual or group but organized judicial system. All the individual should do is stop associating, collaborating and giving common courtesies for reasons of protection of one's self, others important to given person and their property.
- I'm opposed to feminism as a movement as it is clearly not for equality based on policies implemented in laws and rules of various institutions that were implemented under their influence as well as constant propagation of skewed, misinterpreted of clearly false data.
- I commend feminism as movement for work they have don up to a point but I condemn it for quite a few actions that came to fruition in western world in last two to three decades.
- I do not deal with people based on labels, acting like that proved seriously dumb. I treat every human being as person regardless of labels that person gave to itself or others forced upon them.
- For me there are no sacred cows. Every thing is to be explored, analyzed and classified until one can extrapolate decently accurate opinion. Even movements we support with all our heart and judicial systems that we rely on for protection.
There, I hope that is clear enough. If you, by some chance, ran into my numerous posts in last few weeks, you would be able to see some more of my opinions and stances but in this case, these are most relevant ones.