Vegan Superiority complex

[Ampersand]

Actually I corrected a misconception about my lifestyle and I explained my moral stand point in a calm and polite manner after being called a bigot for no reason beyond saying that it's not alright to hurt animals.
Of course I can see that i've hurt your feelings by not instantly conforming to your lifestyle.... so sorry I guess : /

My feelings are decidedly unhurt, I was commenting on the quality of your reasoning.

No i'm better then you because I choose not to kill animals. Deal with it.

And yes you are a bigot, this sentence is all the proof required.

Attempting to lord over people based on some imagined superiority is the widely used definition of the term.

For my counter- death is a part of life and a part of nature, animals kill each other for food and the human race is no different.
We have evolved over millenia to require meat in our diets- you may attempt to retort here with "but I know veggies who are perfectly healthy!"- the fact is they maybe so but they are not as healthy as a meat eater at a similar level of fitness, eat as many pulses as you need you are still missing out on a number of vital trace chemicals that can only be found in meat, meat protein itself is of a superior quality to vegetable protein- its faster metabolised and utilised within the human body.
This something I have learnt after a half decade spent in scientific academia- if you so require I will hunt down the data that proves what im saying, although it may take me a few hours to remember where the journal articles are stored.

EDIT= And on a further note the first aspect of health to be compromised is normally the immune system, whilst your reported level of fitness may inoculate mildly against illness it is common for vegetarians to bexcome infected much quicker.

Your argument is that hypothetically I might be marginally stronger if i'd been eating meat all my life, so that make it alright?
That's really weak man.(no pun intended)
It's also untrue, I actually know this from experience.
Also it really saddens me that I've had to address this so many times today but the whole " it's fine to kill other animals because some animals do it to" argument doesn't make any sense. There are lots of things animals do that it's not alright for humans to do. Humans aren't wolves, we aren't acting on instinct, we can actually control how we behave, I don't understand why you would insult your own intelligence by implying that you can't.

 

[fundayz]

If a person is vegan to avoid the environmental damage that producing meat causes, then they ARE better. They are giving up meat, something I could never do, in order to lessen their environmental impact.

However if a person is vegan because "Oh no! The poor animals" then they need a reality check. Raising animals and killing animals is not unethical, it's cruel, but that is how nature works.

We do not have a moral duty to prevent animal suffering essential for our natural existence.

 

[fundayz]

Also it really saddens me that I've had to address this so many times today but the whole " it's fine to kill other animals because some animals do it to" argument doesn't make any sense. There are lots of things animals do that it's not alright for humans to do. Humans aren't wolves, we aren't acting on instinct, we can actually control how we behave, I don't understand why you would insult your own intelligence by implying that you can't.

It's not that we can't change our behaviour, it's that we do not have a moral duty to prevent animal suffering essential to our natural existence.

You are not better than anybody else just because you take up a self-imposed morality.

 

[Togs]

Your argument is that hypothetically I might be marginally stronger if i'd been eating meat all my life, so that make it alright?
That's really weak man.(no pun intended)
It's also untrue, I actually know this from experience.
Also it really saddens me that I've had to address this so many times today but the whole " it's fine to kill other animals because some animals do it to" argument doesn't make any sense. There are lots of things animals do that it's not alright for humans to do. Humans aren't wolves, we aren't acting on instinct, we can actually control how we behave, I don't understand why you would insult your own intelligence by implying that you can't.

I didnt say stronger I said healthier, and if you purport to know better then the scientists who have investigated it forgive me if I think you arrogant.

And yes humans for the most part act on instinct, emotion is itself an instinctive thing- why does being able to control our instincts make any difference?

However if a person is vegan because "Oh no! The poor animals" then they need a reality check. Raising animals and killing animals is not unethical, it's cruel, but that is how nature works.

We do not have a moral duty to prevent animal suffering essential for our natural existence.

Well said.

 

[klasbo]

I'm a vegetarian, and let me help you by telling you that we're not all idiots:

The reasons I'm a vegetarian:
1) Animals are farmed in the conditions that are similar to the last few seconds that were experienced by that rabbit of yours, but for their entire lives. Not a fan of this.
2) Not eating meat contributes more to not completely wrecking the environment than giving up your car. Very much a fan of this.
3) Less than 10% of the energy given to the animal (aka what the animal eats) is converted into body mass at all, and then only 40% of the animal is used as food for the table. It's terribly inefficient, and we could feed at least 10bn people if we cut meat consumption to a once-a-week Sunday affair, such as it was only 60-70 years ago.

In Norway we're pretty damn good with animal rights, but I still try to get my dairy products and eggs from local, open-air and organic farms (organic farms have even stricter animal rights rules).

So basically, "think of the planet and the people", rather than "think of the cute animals".

 

[Roybot]

We do not have a moral duty to prevent animal suffering essential for our natural existence.

In that respect then, we hold on responsibility to the nature around us which sustains that life as well? Of course we do. You want to know why? It affects us too. The reciprocity should be there with nature because that balance is what keeps us alive before our need for meat does. If we don't have enough animals dying on their own in the woods, we don't have enough fungus nitrogen-fixing the soil, which then means we don't have the means to keep the trees that give us oxygen.

This is not an affront to people who eat meat, but don't try and make eating me some moral high ground. Eating in itself shouldn't even have any moral implications unless you're being gluttonous or have something to prove with what you're eating. It's a means of living, and if it takes you having to hunt your food, engineer alternatives, or anything in between that's your business. I don't think anyone should try and superimpose their beliefs or ideals on other people unless it is solicited.

 

[ShindoL Shill]

I can't be bothered to read the rest of the posts, but from what I understand is that you were killing those poor defenseless bunny rabbit because they were destroying your yard. they probably think it's a stupid reason to kill, I do as well (and I'm not vegetarian). aren't there repellents for critters, last time I checked peppermint extract works well at deterring them. It's not the superiority, it's the fact you were killing bunny rabbis with an underpowered gun that just caused tat one a whole crapload of pain.

edit: I read the first page and a half so I didn't just read the op and make complete and total assumptions


ps, sorry if this post isn't coherent, it's 2:30 and I can't sleep.

from what i understand, he was using an underpowered gun so it wouldnt deal more damage than needed, and the rabbit was in pain because the OPs brother only wounded it.
OT: i hate anyone who thinks like that. 'i do this so im better than you' and you had a pest problem, you dealt with it and they shouldnt complain.

 

[fundayz]

We do not have a moral duty to prevent animal suffering essential for our natural existence.

In that respect then, we hold on responsibility to the nature around us which sustains that life as well? Of course we do. You want to know why? It affects us too. The reciprocity should be there with nature because that balance is what keeps us alive before our need for meat does. If we don't have enough animals dying on their own in the woods, we don't have enough fungus nitrogen-fixing the soil, which then means we don't have the means to keep the trees that give us oxygen.

/facepalm

First of all, our food comes from farms and factories, not the wild. The animals we kill are not part of the natural ecosystem.

We already do (or at least try to) protect our environment and ecosystems with hunting regulations, fishing regulations, wilderness protection progress, etc.

Meat production DOES affect the environment but not in the means you propose. Energy and water consumption and pollution are the real problems with meat production. Trying to overcome these issues by getting people not to eat meat is not only futile but also irresponsibly inefficient; instead we must focus on innovative, sustainable design of our livestock facilities.

This is not an affront to people who eat meat, but don't try and make eating me some moral high ground. Eating in itself shouldn't even have any moral implications unless you're being gluttonous or have something to prove with what you're eating. It's a means of living, and if it takes you having to hunt your food, engineer alternatives, or anything in between that's your business. I don't think anyone should try and superimpose their beliefs or ideals on other people unless it is solicited.

What are you talking about? Exactly how did I portray meat eating as a moral high ground? That's right, I didn't. All I did was point out that "Not eating meat to avoid animals" is not a valid argument from a moral standpoint.

Superimpose their beliefs on other people is EXACTLY what "holier-than-thou" Vegans do whenever the subject comes up. I have no problem with people being vegans, or even thinking that it's wrong to kill animals for food(even though it's not); I have a HUGE problem when they judge others based on their own, self-imposed moral standards.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

hello mood swings, there's another one.

Wow, that post just went right over your head didn?t it?

I find it sad that I have to explain this but the reason plants don't scream when you "rip them from the ground" isn't because they don't have vocal cords it's be cause they don't feel pain (duuuh!) they don't have consciousness or a nervous system....animals do.

Let me explain the fundamental issue you seem to glossing over? pain is merely the sensory perception of damage. Regardless of whether or not they can perceive the damage, the damage is still caused. If you rip a carrot from the ground, it will die, plain and simple. If your issue is truly just an issue of perception, then you should have no issues with the humane cultivation of any life form for sustenance. IE; ?If they can?t express their feelings about what I?m doing, it?s OK!? In that case, I plan to consume you when your brain dead; which you should be fine with.

I won?t disagree with irritations towards animal cruelty; any amounts of it are unfortunate. BUT, you CANNOT, with a strait face, tell me that because I eat meat I am SUPPORTING ANIMAL CRUELTY. Saying that to my face will get you a broken nose. It?s a stupid, unfounded, misguided, ill informed, thoughtless, incorrect, atrocious and downright retarded thing to say.

Seriously did you give that argument any thought at all?

Much more thought than I?m sure you?ve ever put into it. You?re entire argument is as follows; ?Hurting things is wrong, getting meat hurts animals, I don?t want to hurt animals, so I don?t eat meat.? Do you really need me to point out all the problems with this reasoning? Would you even bother trying to understand if I did?

I was sent to farms when I was younger. I?ve done it all. Yet I find no moral pretense that would lead me to believe I?m ethically in the wrong for doing something I am BIOLOGICALLY designed to do.

If you really are fighting the good fight, doing NOTHING but NOT supporting the meat industry is about the most PASSIVE thing you can do to solve the problem. I know, I?m going to stop all drinking and driving by not getting a drivers liscence! Brilliant isn?t it? My stellar, ethical and outstanding shining example of virtue will no doubt change the world!

I'm sorry but saying that people who eat meat are no worse then wolves and lions is kind of insulting to their intelligence don't you think. I mean predators arn't smart enough to understand cruelty, and you really should be.

Wow? really? Nothing quite like showing me exactly what you?re position is. Life must be able to reach my level of intellectual standards and prove to me they can feel pain for me to give a shit right? And still equating the consumption of meat with animal cruelty; THAT? IS? FUCKING? STUPID.

But no, let?s go ahead and use your "logic" then. You support the destruction of forestry. Why? Because you eat plants. You only care about animals larger than a cat. Why? Because you support the death of thousands of insects, gophers, mice, rats, moles and any other animal that gets killed during the process of harvesting crops. You also support the death of humans. Why? Because your inactively not supporting an industry that has the ability to feed more people at a cheaper cost then you vegan/vegetarian requirements. So unless you?d like to support; forest destruction, animal death and human death, you can stop using such idiotic reasoning to justify your moral superiority to meat eaters.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

At least us meat-eaters do the humane thing and kill the animal before we eat it.

See that carrot you're chewing on? You're eating it alive.

That just seems like a really weird thing to say. I get that you're trying to sound clever but in reality equating killing animals to picking vegetables can be a warning sign of a sever personality disorder. 8/

Call me psycopathic then, because you're not actually disagreeing with the statement. What is the Vegan beef with eating animals? The cultivation of life forms for the sole purpose of consumption. What's a vegetable garden? The cultivation of life forms for the sole purpose of consumption.

The ethics behind the consumption of one type of life over another isn't anything beyond an arbitrary choice in what they kill to consume. If it really was about not killing anything for the sake of morality, you'd eat nothing but fruit because trees and plants shed it without them dying for it (and similar food).

Is it because you don't have to look vegetables in the eyes when you chew on them? Is it because they can't scream when you rip them from the ground? How is irreversable damage to something any less equivilent to causing it temporary pain?

Vegans and vegeterians can spare me their righteous indignations. I am no worse than any other animal that consumers another for sustenance. And I find them always morally superior to us.

hello mood swings, there's another one.

I find it sad that I have to explain this but the reason plants don't scream when you "rip them from the ground" isn't because they don't have vocal cords it's be cause they don't feel pain (duuuh!) they don't have consciousness or a nervous system....animals do.
Seriously did you give that argument any thought at all?

I'm sorry but saying that people who eat meat are no worse then wolves and lions is kind of insulting to their intelligence don't you think. I mean predators arn't smart enough to understand cruelty, and you really should be.

Since when is eating meat cruel?

When I hunt, I take care so that my first shoot kills the animal I am hunting.
How on earth is that cruel?

Dude, seriously? If you're that well trained with a rifle you could kill a man without him even knowing he's been shot, I mean as long as you find someone who's kind of a loner and doesn't have many friends it's open season, right?
Yes taking a life needlessly is cruel.

Actually I am required by law to be 100% certain that the first shot will kill the animal I am hunting.
If I am not, I don't take the shot.

And what does any of this have to do with murdering people?
Are you implying that it is the same to kill and animal and a human?

And I don't take the life of an animal needlessly, I intend to eat it.

I would put the life of a human well above the life of an animal in terms of my priorities. I'd kill an animal if it tried to kill me and I'd probably kill one to feed my family if there was absolutely no other food available. However you don't need to eat an animal to survive, unless you're currently lost in the wilderness with nothing but your rifle and a lap-top. You can feed yourself very well without having to hurt anything.
Why do people act as though that's such an unreasonable thing to say?

Yes, it is. Animals eat animals, this isn't new. We wouldn't find them so tasty and have teeth that can chew meat if we weren't meant to eat them. Why should I have to avoid fast food, the meat section at the market, and other things just because you don't feel it is right? I have easy access to meat, I find meat tasty ergo I buy and eat meat.

 

[Instinct Blues]

Theres nothing wrong with being a vegan/vegetarian or being a person who eats meat. The problem arises when vegans/vegetarians get up on their high horse and start preaching about the evils of eating meat. I get that animals live in horrible conditions on some farms and are cramped into small spaces. There are farms that overfeed animals so they get so fat they can't move, but I'm not going to stop eating meat. The reason is because animals don't have a sense of their own mortality, they don't have little animal families, and they don't have human thoughts.

I think that is what some vegans/vegetarians do they put human thoughts into the mind of an animal that isn't capable of such thought. Then they go on to say how horrible it would be if we were in the same position and yeah it would be because we have a lot more to offer the world than just being food. I'm sorry if that sounds cruel, but when a cow can start going to cow school and learn about something that isn't eating and sleeping, maybe then I'll start to feel bad for the poor cows. Its not like they have jobs or families to provide for and they were kidnapped and slaughtered. They were born to be food and thats their purpose on earth.

 

[squeekenator]

I.E. you made a strawman that you can easily beat up.

Your argument is -the- definition of a strawman argument.

No it isn't. I never put any words into his mouth or invented some kind of false argument that I claimed he made. I simply pointed out that his logic (the exact argument he used, not one that I invented so I could attack it) could be used to justify atrocities, thus making it highly suspect, to say the least.

 

[squeekenator]

Wait, did you just compare survival instincts and preference to rape?

No, I didn't. I've already discussed this. But if you want to talk about it some more, then sure.

Rape, under no circumstances, ever, can be justified. Meat is self preservation and programmed into us to enjoy. It's cheaper and healthier than MOST vegetarian diets.

So if we enjoy it and it's good for us then it's automatically morally acceptable, regardless of what terrible impacts it may have on others? I'm fairly certain you don't actually believe that, so what are you trying to argue here?

Rape psychologically destroys an individual.

Doesn't kill them, though.

Animals have no psche, rational or sentience.

[citation needed]
Pretty much everything we would call an animal is in fact sentient, believe it or not, which is all you need in order to feel pain or fear death, and there's no reason they wouldn't do either. Both are simple instincts just like any other sense or emotion, there's nothing innately human about them. Unless you'd happily eat young children and then brag about it on the internet I don't see why rationality would come into it.

"The question is not Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?"

 

[Dragunai]

Its just the nature of the beast.
Humans always have a superiority complex about something, its why we have always had a class system and hierarchies so you know your place under some and above others.

Personally I just say turn your gun on the whiners. It worked for Dick Cheney.

 

[Roybot]

We do not have a moral duty to prevent animal suffering essential for our natural existence.

In that respect then, we hold on responsibility to the nature around us which sustains that life as well? Of course we do. You want to know why? It affects us too. The reciprocity should be there with nature because that balance is what keeps us alive before our need for meat does. If we don't have enough animals dying on their own in the woods, we don't have enough fungus nitrogen-fixing the soil, which then means we don't have the means to keep the trees that give us oxygen.

/facepalm

First of all, our food comes from farms and factories, not the wild. The animals we kill are not part of the natural ecosystem.

We already do (or at least try to) protect our environment and ecosystems with hunting regulations, fishing regulations, wilderness protection progress, etc.

Meat production DOES affect the environment but not in the means you propose. Energy and water consumption and pollution are the real problems with meat production. Trying to overcome these issues by getting people not to eat meat is not only futile but also irresponsibly inefficient; instead we must focus on innovative, sustainable design of our livestock facilities.

This is not an affront to people who eat meat, but don't try and make eating me some moral high ground. Eating in itself shouldn't even have any moral implications unless you're being gluttonous or have something to prove with what you're eating. It's a means of living, and if it takes you having to hunt your food, engineer alternatives, or anything in between that's your business. I don't think anyone should try and superimpose their beliefs or ideals on other people unless it is solicited.

What are you talking about? Exactly how did I portray meat eating as a moral high ground? That's right, I didn't. All I did was point out that "Not eating meat to avoid animals" is not a valid argument from a moral standpoint.

Superimpose their beliefs on other people is EXACTLY what "holier-than-thou" Vegans do whenever the subject comes up. I have no problem with people being vegans, or even thinking that it's wrong to kill animals for food(even though it's not); I have a HUGE problem when they judge others based on their own, self-imposed moral standards.

I liked the spice in this before it got tangential. First let's address the "natural ecosystem" situation. Do they live on the planet or is there some terra-formed section of the moon that shelters cattle to craft the space cheese I didn't hear about? If they live here, they clearly have an impact on an ecosystem. They die, and when they die in an unhealthy fashion or before they can be processed they will be composted. Here in Texas, kids are taught about this process in high school. Cattle get shipped day in and day out and aren't really given so much as the respect of dying without be shuttled off to rot in a mass grave. What won't degrade in a timely fashion is sold off, sometimes auctioned, even made into trophies or jewelry. Again it only frightens me when we has people can't make the parallel of what we're doing to the animals, when it can't be applied to us. They live here, and some have been living these lands before we knew how to work our thumbs, yet they get the "Eat me I'm tasty" label smacked on them, meanwhile America is complaining about an "obesity" epidemic (it's just as likely for someone to catch obesity as it would for them to catch the stupid) and wondering what the deal is.

The deal is we don't treat the environment with respect, which means the environment will return the favor, and in doing so we end up not respecting ourselves. Bottom line of this discussion is, why can't we be held to some sort of respect or understanding with nature so we don't end up like the T-rex or any other evolutionary super-being fluke that didn't make it over humanity.

 

[pppppppppppppppppp]

As someone who grew up vegetarian and is now vegan, I used to do this all the time. Since I've grown up believing killing animals is wrong, other people doing it just horrifies and perplexes me.

I've come to realize that hating on people for eating meat is akin to those annoying religious people that tell atheists they're going to hell every chance they get. Now, I try to keep my lifestyle, but not be so douchy about it. (the key word there is try, of course

 

[Jazoni89]

I seriously don't see drinking soya milk, and eating ryvita for the rest of you're life as being superior.

In fact I find it rather silly, as you will be missing out on a lot of vital nutrition that your body needs being vegan (which may lead to a lower immune system, and deficiencies), but each to their own I guess.

 

[omega 616]

snip

The name of your last thread was "I'm a terrible person" and your chocked people ragged on you? mmmmmkay.

This one is called "Vegan Superiority complex", here's a better one "Human Superiority complex". Why is that yard yours? You paid money for it, the problem is the person you bought it off had no claim to the land anyway bar the fact humans think the world is there's.

Why are you more important that the rabbit? 'cos your smarter? 'cos your higher up the food chain? Due to us being able to make weapons were at the top of the food chain, doesn't give us the right to slaughter every other animal.

Humans sometimes say "we need to kill X amount of this animal to keep population under control" but apart from insects we out number just about every other animal by a MASSIVE margin! There's 7 billion odd of us! I doubt there's even that many sardines ... and our population just keeps growing.

I am a meat eater but I wouldn't hunt or kill for my food, want to know why? People are paid to do that for me! There's meat sitting in my local shop ready to eat, why do I need to go out and kill more of it? To prove I am a man? Call me a woman or a "******" see if I care.

I hope you go a few weeks eating nothing but rabbit ... the irony would be beautiful.

 

[gabe12301]

If you eat healthy diet with healthy amounts of meat you will general be healthier than a vegan and stronger. if anything being a vegan is a disadvantage. Unless you get vegan powers.

 

[Veroxx]

snip

*blah*

Why are you more important that the rabbit? 'cos your smarter? 'cos your higher up the food chain? Due to us being able to make weapons were at the top of the food chain, doesn't give us the right to slaughter every other animal.

Humans sometimes say "we need to kill X amount of this animal to keep population under control" but apart from insects we out number just about every other animal by a MASSIVE margin! There's 7 billion odd of us! I doubt there's even that many sardines ... and our population just keeps growing.

I am a meat eater but I wouldn't hunt or kill for my food, want to know why? People are paid to do that for me! There's meat sitting in my local shop ready to eat, why do I need to go out and kill more of it? To prove I am a man? Call me a woman or a "******" see if I care.

I can't see anywhere in this thread where anyone has asked you to prove you are a man by killing your own food, or suggest you are a woman or a "******" by not doing so unless of course they are your own PERSONAL beliefs... but I won't go putting words in your mouth.

I suggest you do your research before blindly guessing at how many we outnumber other animals by, ever heard the term "breeding like rabbits," well strangely they do breed a LOT, in some areas there can be upwards of 500 rabbits per square km.

The rabbit will live for 12 years, it will accomplish nothing except survival whereas the average human will live for about 80 years and has the potential to accomplish great feats, invention of the wheel, mastery of fire, invention of mathematics, science and philosophy, electricity, computers, the Internet. Certainly more important than just survival, certainly more intelligent too... also, last time I checked things at the top of the food chain ate things lower down in the food chain... that's what it's all about.