Veganism...why?

[Vegan_Doodler]

EDIT: Furthermore, if they ever perfect the ability to "grow" meat from stem cells such that it has the same nutritional value, flavour and texture as "real" meat, and were able to do so at a reasonable price, I'd fully support switching to that.

I was thinking of this earlier, I don't see why scientists don't put more effort into this, the mp3 is small enough guys lets start on the important stuff.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Indeed

I haven't read SoA in a long time either, not really a huge fan of hers anymore either, but I loved Daystar Clarion ever since I read about it.

Awesome sword is awesome

Yeah the sword was great, especially when it was something so innocuous at the start before anyone realised what it was. Rhapsody was cool, as were the two guys who travelled with her, Achmed and Whatshisface. But Ash, I never warmed to him. I thought he was a ponce when we first met him and nothing changed my mind about him. I wonder if there are any more books out in that series, been a long, long time since I looked. It wasn't my favourite series by any stretch but wasn't bad by any stretch. Interesting characters and setting with the whole musical thing going on.

 

[Jammy2003]

Actually I think the blind and ignorant was aimed at the first half the the thread which mostly contained "Yeah I don't get it". Which is ignorance. And blind because people like their views and ignore evidence to the contrary.

Speaking for those who have no voice tends to stem from the arguement "I'll stop eating pigs when they stand up and tell me to stop eating them". And even if it didn't stem from that how is that Snobby?

And do you KNOW that vegans use products made from animals? It is possible to cut out animal products you know.

The person didn't direct it at anyone in particular, both views of where it is directed are equally valid.

You raise a valid point, the whole post was fairly snobby, not just that one point.

And yes, and I do know that. Most vegans are just as ignorant as the people they whine about.[/quote]

Actually... Sorry mate but I know this person, and the amount of effort they go to educate themselves means they have cut out animal products, things tested on animals, clothing and.... pretty much anything it is possible to?
Also, I did the civil thing, and ASKED where it was directed. It was directed at the first half of the thread. So.... Mine is valid (Or at least correct) and yours isn't.

"Most vegans are ignorant" is not the same as all are, so it's quite the assumption you are throwing around there. Do you know most vegans? Or is this just vegans you happen to have met? Anecdotal evidence?

 

[Eamar]

EDIT: Furthermore, if they ever perfect the ability to "grow" meat from stem cells such that it has the same nutritional value, flavour and texture as "real" meat, and were able to do so at a reasonable price, I'd fully support switching to that.

I was thinking of this earlier, I don't see why scientists don't put more effort into this, the mp3 is small enough guys lets start on the important stuff.

Actually, they are working on it. This news report is from February of this year: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16972761 . The problem is that the process is massively expensive at the moment.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Indeed

I haven't read SoA in a long time either, not really a huge fan of hers anymore either, but I loved Daystar Clarion ever since I read about it.

Awesome sword is awesome

Yeah the sword was great, especially when it was something so innocuous at the start before anyone realised what it was. Rhapsody was cool, as were the two guys who travelled with her, Achmed and Whatshisface. But Ash, I never warmed to him. I thought he was a ponce when we first met him and nothing changed my mind about him. I wonder if there are any more books out in that series, been a long, long time since I looked. It wasn't my favourite series by any stretch but wasn't bad by any stretch. Interesting characters and setting with the whole musical thing going on.

The series started off really well, but all the characters were just too perfect, especially Rhapsody, dear lord did she turn into the biggest Mary Sue in the universe.

 

[mad825]

Yes, but our stomach is much longer than a pure carnivores, so I was just putting that we are purely neither. Also, as we live in a society of convenience where everything is produced and so easy to obtain.

When did I say we were carnivores? Seeing as we don't have teeth like a tiger and fruit/vegetables were the core diet of our great ancestors we can be neither of two extremes. We do need meat but sometimes we eat too much, often the wrong type of meat.

the arguement we NEED to eat meat instead of the large quantities of veg to keep up calories is a bit of a fail.

Not really, the most common problems for a vegan is malnutrition especially in the young. The advice for vegans is to eat more rather than to eat less in order to get the recommended daily allowance of minerals and vitamins.

If were are going to use the "eat well plate" for reference

Spoiler

Then that's well of a quarter off the plate in which they need to compensate for which contains quite a bit of fat,minerals and vitamins. I suppose you don't need it but life without it isn't easy.

 

[randomrob]

Nature is far more cruel than humans ever were.

But Humans are still cruel. We may be less cruel to animals than nature is, but we are far crueller to them than we are to fellow humans.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

Ok the righteous think was out of order, apologies, and I already knew what the responce would be because its the same every time, 'if we didn't do time they would die' but like I said it is still fucked up and not a good reason to continue doing it.

To start with, stopping would essentially be genocide, but let's ignore that for now.
Domesticated animals are highly successful creatures, from an evolutionary standpoint.
In a sense, they're parasitic, having humanity secure their survival for them.
They're also leading far better lives than wild animals. Objectively better.
They live longer, never have to starve, don't have to fear predators, get medical care, and die far more painlessly than they would in the wild.
I won't pretend it's all roses and rainbows. I mean, we do murder them for food.
Considering what nature has in store for them, they're still better off as our 'prey'.
In the wild, they're driven by hunger and fear.
In the wild, they die from predators that starts eating them before they die, diseases that make them starve to death because they grow too weak to find enough food, an easily treatable infection is a death sentence, etc.
Nature is far more cruel than humans ever were.

I completely disagree with the last line even if it is just semantics because nature isn't a thing that's going out of its way just to trip hikers down mountains.
Genocide is an active thing, allowing something to die naturally is passive and there for no blame.
Apart from that I half agree with you and I though I was the only one that noticed that pets where esentialy highly evolved parasites, (that's right felix! get a job!) but I do have to say that my quwarle is with the fact that they are being kept in the first place, if they are supposed to be dead at this point then we should let them bow out with not stick around because their useful.

 

[Breywood]

I was thinking of this earlier, I don't see why scientists don't put more effort into this, the mp3 is small enough guys lets start on the important stuff.

Industrial pork (raised on hefty amounts of steroids and antibiotics with other chemicals, subject to immobility and lack of light):
If I don't know who raised my animal, I don't eat it.

Free range pork:
Leave plenty of room to run around, gets shelter from the elements when necessary. Augment diet if need be. Treat for disease if sick.

Vat grown meat:
Hefty amounts of expensive machinery, specialized nutrient solutions and other chemicals. Not to mention the electricity required to keep it all running.


I know it's like recycling paper, that it would be a matter of time before the process would be inexpensive, but there's still a matter of knowing where your food came from, which is a significant concern of mine.

 

[Jammy2003]

When did I say we were carnivores? Seeing as we don't have teeth like a tiger and fruit/vegetables were the core diet of our great ancestors we can be neither of two extremes. We do need meat but sometimes we eat too much, often the wrong type of meat.

the arguement we NEED to eat meat instead of the large quantities of veg to keep up calories is a bit of a fail.

Not really, the most common problems for a vegan is malnutrition especially in the young. The advice for vegans is to eat more rather than to eat less in order to get the recommended daily allowance of minerals and vitamins.

If were are going to use the "eat well plate" for reference

Spoiler

Then that's well of a quarter off the plate in which they need to compensate for which contains quite a bit of fat,minerals and vitamins. I suppose you don't need it but life without it isn't easy.

I never said you did, you pointed out ours was shorter than herbivores, I pointed out ours was longer than carnivores. I never said we were herbivores.

Malnutrition can be a problem, but not if you actually research things. Of course you have to eat a larger quantity of veg compared to meat, but it takes less to produce.

Can't see the image, my internet is playing up but I'm gonna guess its a plate with portion sizes? It's a strange concept that's pretty new to humanity... Life should be easy for us for some reason? Why? Ease leads to laziness and greed, which is where half the problems I see these days stem from.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

This community greatly disappoints me with the general attitude of insulting and mocking others of whom we simply disagree with. The issue isn't even a civil rights matter. If someone was here calling homosexuals idiots or unnatural all hell would break loose. But it's acceptable to condemn and laugh at other groups? I wasn't aware vegans has brutally murdered so many people's mothers.

 

[Stu35]

Nature is far more cruel than humans ever were.

But Humans are still cruel. We may be less cruel to animals than nature is, but we are far crueller to them than we are to fellow humans.

Cruelty is an entirely human concept.

No Cow has ever died thinking 'Well, that bipedal thing with the bolt-gun was fucking mean to me!'

I hate to simplify what is, for me, quite a complex series of issues crossing Morals, Nature, Mans ability to overcome nature, the fact that man is the only truly sentient and intelligent animal in nature, and a whole host of other things, but what this whole thing really boils down to for me is:

The Cheetah does not care what the Springbok feels when it dies.

The fact that we even moderately consider the 'feelings' of our prey is an anomaly. One which I share in - I don't like unnecessary cruelty to animals, and as with most westerners, I value certain animals above others - I may disapprove of a farmer of Battery-cage hens, but I'd happily set fucking fire to a **** who mistreats his dog. Even more so if it's an awesome dog like a Border Collie, Schaeferhund or a Husky.

Once again though, on a sheer intellectual, 'lets look at this through the cold eyes of logic' way of things - The fact that we herd and domesticate our prey does not change the fact that this is all it is - Prey. It's a commodity.

The Cheetah, will never, ever care what the Springbok feels when it dies. The Springbok will never, ever consider that it's a cruel world which put it in the same area as something that wants to (and has the capability) to chase it down and eat it. It certainly won't consider it's life to have been better than a Cow that lived it's entire life in a field, before getting a bolt through it's head.

Only humans can draw distinctions between the two. Ultimately they're the same thing.

We're just better at it than the Cheetah.

 

[MasochisticAvenger]

You could say the same thing about sports, religion or relationships. All of those things aren't really necessary, but people enjoy them anyway. I don't have a problem with what people choose to do as long as it does not effect me, and they don't try to rub it in my face.

Honestly, you can't tell someone their beliefs are wrong without sounding incredibly arrogant.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Nature is far more cruel than humans ever were.

But Humans are still cruel. We may be less cruel to animals than nature is, but we are far crueller to them than we are to fellow humans.

Cruelty is an entirely human concept.

No Cow has ever died thinking 'Well, that bipedal thing with the bolt-gun was fucking mean to me!'

I hate to simplify what is, for me, quite a complex series of issues crossing Morals, Nature, Mans ability to overcome nature, the fact that man is the only truly sentient and intelligent animal in nature, and a whole host of other things, but what this whole thing really boils down to for me is:

The Cheetah does not care what the Springbok feels when it dies.

The fact that we even moderately consider the 'feelings' of our prey is an anomaly. One which I share in - I don't like unnecessary cruelty to animals, and as with most westerners, I value certain animals above others - I may disapprove of a farmer of Battery-cage hens, but I'd happily set fucking fire to a **** who mistreats his dog.

Once again though, on a sheer intellectual, 'lets look at this through the cold eyes of logic' way of things - The fact that we herd and domesticate our prey does not change the fact that this is all it is - Prey. It's a commodity.

The Cheetah, will never, ever care what the Springbok feels when it dies. The Springbok will never, ever consider that it's a cruel world which put it in the same area as something that wants to (and has the capability) to chase it down and eat it. It certainly won't consider it's life to have been better than a Cow that lived it's entire life in a field, before getting a bolt through it's head.

Only humans can draw distinctions between the two. Ultimately they're the same thing.

We're just better at it than the Cheetah.

Indeed.

Humans don't enslave animals because animals have no concept of slavery.

If this very second, every cow, sheep and pig were freed, you know what they would do?

The same thing they do everyday.

 

[Something Amyss]

I think we're animals and we have a place on the food chain that must be adhered to, it's our duty as humans to keep the lower species in check.

Like we need to eat them to do that, these days.

 

[Denamic]

I completely disagree with the last line even if it is just semantics because nature isn't a thing that's going out of its way just to trip hikers down mountains.

Actually it is.
It's not 'going out of its way', as it's not conscious.
But gravity happens to be a pretty important part of nature.
Well, technically, nature is everything.
The universe is nature, and by extension, we are nature as much as any tree.
But I digress; let's pretend 'nature' is that greenish place with trees in it.

Genocide is an active thing, allowing something to die naturally is passive and there for no blame.

Inaction carries blame as well.
If you see someone drowning in a river, that in this scenario you can easily save, opting to not save that person is your decision.
Your decision is what killed that person; your role being passive or not is of little consequence.
If I decide to release my dogs in the middle of a forest, they'll die.
It being 'natural' doesn't detract from the fact that I'm responsible for it.

Apart from that I half agree with you and I though I was the only one that noticed that pets where esentialy highly evolved parasites, (that's right felix! get a job!) but I do have to say that my quwarle is with the fact that they are being kept in the first place, if they are supposed to be dead at this point then we should let them bow out with not stick around because their useful.

This stance that 'nature' is some sort of higher power that we have to obey is something that doesn't sit well with me.
Physical laws of nature I can abide by, mystical tree spirits, or whatever, deciding what species shall live or die, not so much.

 

[Jammy2003]

Actually... Sorry mate but I know this person, and the amount of effort they go to educate themselves means they have cut out animal products, things tested on animals, clothing and.... pretty much anything it is possible to?
Also, I did the civil thing, and ASKED where it was directed. It was directed at the first half of the thread. So.... Mine is valid (Or at least correct) and yours isn't.

"Most vegans are ignorant" is not the same as all are, so it's quite the assumption you are throwing around there. Do you know most vegans? Or is this just vegans you happen to have met? Anecdotal evidence?

(Man ya butchered that quote, I fixed it for ya though!)

So they dont live in any place or ride in a car made in the last decade or so? Hm interesting, and do you know exactly how many things have been tested on animals? Most modern science and medicine is based on animal testing so...your friend will have a short but apparently blissfully ignorant morally superior life!

And its strange, I looked back through the posts, I didnt see you ask or get answered as to what portion the post was referring to... If you could like me to that I would be happy to be informed!

And now for your viewing pleasure. A vegan xenomorph!

(Yeah, I noticed once i posted it but i never got used to the system enough to know how to fix it)

I just want to ask, so its better to do NOTHING than to do what you can? You're right, most stuff recently is at least based on things that were tested on animals. But surely it's better to at least do the best you can isn't it?

Somethings in society are practically IMPOSSIBLE to avoid, some things aren't. As a matter of fact, she lives in a house substantially older than 10 years old, and doesn't own a car. But one day she might not, and that'll be a decision that'll be made then. The point is to make a CONSCIOUS decision.

And in regards to animal testing in medicine, its actually pretty ineffective if you look at the success crossover from animal trials to human trials. It's been suggested by professionals in the field that it has set back medical development a large number of years.

As to that, you can't see it, because they didn't post it to me. I go to uni with the person, and asked them outside of this forum. I can always get them to log on and confirm if you'd like?

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

This community greatly disappoints me with the general attitude of insulting and mocking others of whom we simply disagree with. The issue isn't even a civil rights matter. If someone was here calling homosexuals idiots or unnatural all hell would break loose. But it's acceptable to condemn and laugh at other groups? I wasn't aware vegans has brutally murdered so many people's mothers.

I seem to remember hearing about this kind of speech once, I think it was called level headed logic, I tip my hat to you sir.