Veganism...why?

[spartan231490]

Why? Because people are illogical. It doesn't make any sense, and if you follow veganism to it's logical conclusion, it doesn't result in peace and happiness for all of the little animals, but extinction.

Please enlighten me, why would it?

Cows and chickens are only alive because we help them stay that way. They don't have the defenses or drive to survive the wilderness. Sheep are in a similar boat. They have some drive, but they feed mostly on grasses, meaning there is a very limited region in which they could survive, and they're slow and relatively small, leaving them vulnerable to predators. Even coyotes can take sheep, and that's while they're being protected by the farmers.

Virtually all domesticated animals lack what it takes to survive in the wild anymore, we've made sure of that. Without the farmers who raise them, they would die, and that's assuming the farmers let them go wild, instead of just slaughtering them for convenience, or selling them to anyone who would buy(glue factories, research institutes).

 

[Jammy2003]

Why? Because people are illogical. It doesn't make any sense, and if you follow veganism to it's logical conclusion, it doesn't result in peace and happiness for all of the little animals, but extinction.

Please enlighten me, why would it?

Because we wouldn't need them. And most livestock aren't really capable of being self sufficient.

We've bred them over thousands of years to yield the most milk, or the most meat or lay the most eggs etc.

If we just released all the chickens into the wild, their population would probably be decimated within a month. They are too far removed from their wild ancestors.

Dairy cows need to be consistently milked, if you were to suddenly stop doing this they'd suffer a long, drawn out and painful death.

The fact of the matter is, is that if we suddenly didn't require our livestock. We'd have to put the majority of them down.

True, we have bred them to be that way, and the majority of them would die. Pretty sure there are a lot of quote supporting the sentiment of dying free is better than living a slave, besides, they'll die soon anyway to be served as meat.

It's false logic to say you care if they'll survive in the wild and then kill them for food anyway.

Also, dairy cows need to be milked constantly as they are constantly cycled through pregnant and having just given birth. Whenever the milk dries up they are impregnanted again to make them produce, just like humans only produce after birth. Leave them with their calves, and they'll "milk" their mothers do the cow wont die a painful, drawn out death.

 

[Jessy_Fran]

His point was that she wasn't doing much to dispel that.

Why should I have to? There was no hypocrisy in my statement and this thread is full of people who are attacking veganism so why should I have to hold back the punches?

 

[mad825]

d) I don't believe we are naturally carnivores, nor are we naturally herbivores, we are opportunistic omnivores. We eat whatever we can get our hands on at the time, be it meat or veg. Veg and plants in the summer, and meat in the winter. But predominantly we had a vegetation diet. This means the actual amount of protein we need in our diet is low not that high daily. You can get 30-40% of your RDA from a serving of beans damn it, and we are oversaturated with it, a pizza I ate the other day? 160% of RDA of protein in one meal.
In a college urine sample I got told to eat less protein and drink more as I was actually pissing the stuff.

We are omnivores and our body has adapted to that. Our teeth have developed from flat molars which are effective for chewing grass/vegetables to become more concave which is effective for chewing meat. If we are also to compare other evaluational traits such as our intestines which are shorter than our fellow cousins to conserve energy therefore our bodys are not so keen on a herbivore's diet...Some people get a bad stomach and spend time on the toilet.

The most accepted reason why we do eat meat is because it's a far quicker and easier way of getting energy as you only need to eat a small amount of meat to meet the equivalent of eating a large amount of vegetables. Just because you over-consumed (more than you actually needed) doesn't mean that "we are not designed for it". The RDA is a guideline (of the minimum amount you should have everyday) not an accurate measurement of nutrition which everyone must have, some people require more. Hell, you can over-consume on water.

OT:Honestly, Veganism is more like a religion than a diet. When they claim for health reason it's usually because they don't understand and often worry about their own health, even something as basic like tap water which contains contaminates (lead, arsenic, copper and microbes) which millions of people live-off everyday without any health issues might even cause them unnecessary panic.

Also, they are also concerned that meat causes disease (pathogenic). Well, yes, that's true but it's not like one of the most, if not, thee most deadliest toxins/poisons are naturally occurring from plants. >.>

If were going to talk about empathy, lets all start being nice to insects and plants (what about microbes?) seeing as they are also considered as "living". Personally, I think it's a human thing where our imaginations get to the best of us. It's a cruel world and they should know it because they've been around longer than us.

 

[AngleWyrm]

Killer Vegan class skill [http://www.dredmorwiki.com/wiki/Killer_Vegan] in the Dungeons of Dredmor!

It's like three bucks on Steam.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

Why? Because people are illogical. It doesn't make any sense, and if you follow veganism to it's logical conclusion, it doesn't result in peace and happiness for all of the little animals, but extinction.

Please enlighten me, why would it?

Because we wouldn't need them. And most livestock aren't really capable of being self sufficient.

We've bred them over thousands of years to yield the most milk, or the most meat or lay the most eggs etc.

If we just released all the chickens into the wild, their population would probably be decimated within a month. They are too far removed from their wild ancestors.

Dairy cows need to be consistently milked, if you were to suddenly stop doing this they'd suffer a long, drawn out and painful death.

The fact of the matter is, is that if we suddenly didn't require our livestock. We'd have to put the majority of them down.

Maybe, but then we need to ask the question "is submission not preferable to extinction" and I say no. I don't want any animals to die, but don't act like you'r being the righteous savoir by condoning continued exploitation of other creatures. I like to think that if the roles where reversed then I would be allowed to die with dignity rather than be kept around because it's convenient for others.

 

[Eamar]

So if the slave trade had continued long enough that Africans developed particular genetic traits making them more useful as field workers, it would be okay to continue their bondage forever?
If not, please give me a scientific difference between the two situations.

The difference is of course that human slaves are not animals.

But you haven't given a reason as to why they differ, Farming and slavery are about the exploitation of another creature, the only reason people find the latter more objectionable is because the creature in question is human.

Yes, but no-one's given a good reason as to why they're the same either. I did go on to explain that this is just something we're going to have to agree to disagree on, it's a very primal thing. You're not about to convince me that a chicken is equivalent to a human, however mentally disabled. In fact, many people would find the notion pretty offensive.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

His point was that she wasn't doing much to dispel that.

Why should I have to? There was no hypocrisy in my statement and this thread is full of people who are attacking veganism so why should I have to hold back the punches?

This thread has quickly become a lets bash vegans thread, for what ever reason.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Some reasons may include:

- They do not approve of how animals are treated
- They do not wish to "endorse" aforementioned treatment by buying any meat or animal byproducts (leather, eggs, milk)
- They do not wish to encourage the mistreatment of animals by financially supporting companies that mistreat them
- They may further consider using animals for testing to be unnecessarily cruel
- They don't like the taste of meat or other animal byproducts

Generally, I understand it to usually come down to the combination of my first two points. They would suggest it's quite possible (and the fact that they survive proves their point) to live without breeding, slaughtering and mass-butchering animals for meat, leather, milk, eggs, gelatin, etc and that we are doing unnecessary harm to them in the process.

 

[Jammy2003]

We are omnivores and our body has adapted to that. Our teeth have developed from flat molars which are effective for chewing grass/vegetables to become more concave which is effective for chewing meat. If we are also to compare other evaluational traits such as our intestines which are shorter than our fellow cousins to conserve energy therefore our bodys are not so keen on a herbivore's diet...Some people get bad stomach and spend time on the toilet.

The most accepted reason why we do eat meat is because it's a far quicker and easier way of getting energy as you only need to eat a small amount of meat to meet the equivalent of eating a large amount of vegetables. Just because you over-consumed (more than you actually needed) doesn't mean that "we are not designed for it". The RDA is a guideline not an accurate measurement of nutrition which everyone must have, some people require more. Hell, you can over-consume on water.

OT:Honestly, Veganism is more like a religion than a diet. When they claim for health reason it's usually because they don't understand and often worry about their own health, even something as basic like tap water which contains contaminates (lead, arsenic, copper and microbes) which millions of people live-off everyday without any health issues might even cause them unnecessary panic.

Also, they are also concerned that meat causes disease (pathogenic). Well, yes, that's true but it's not like one of the most, if not, thee most deadliest toxins/poisons are naturally occurring from plants. >.>

If were going to talk about empathy, lets all start being nice to insects and plant seeing as they are also considered as "living". Personally, I think it's a human thing where our imaginations get to the best of us. It's a cruel world and they should know because they've been round longer than us.

Yes, but our stomach is much longer than a pure carnivores, so I was just putting that we are purely neither. Also, as we live in a society of convenience where everything is produced and so easy to obtain, the arguement we NEED to eat meat instead of the large quantities of veg to keep up calories is a bit of a fail.

I don't believe i ever said we weren't designed for it. I was pointing out that the majority of people overconsume protein, as we are raised with the attitude of needing at least one hot meal a day, which contains meat, and a large portion of people will have a second meal in the day which contains a fair portion of meat also.

RDA is not the be-all-end-all of nutrients, and I never claimed it was. Of course it varies from person to person, but there are vegan bodhy-builders, so that shoots down the arguement that you NEED meat really.

Yes, everything is slowly poisoning us, but that doesn't mean people should try doing what they can. Empathy, well-being and most things in life are not ALL or NOTHING, there is always shades of grey.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

So if the slave trade had continued long enough that Africans developed particular genetic traits making them more useful as field workers, it would be okay to continue their bondage forever?
If not, please give me a scientific difference between the two situations.

The difference is of course that human slaves are not animals.

But you haven't given a reason as to why they differ, Farming and slavery are about the exploitation of another creature, the only reason people find the latter more objectionable is because the creature in question is human.

Yes, but no-one's given a good reason as to why they're the same either. I did go on to explain that this is just something we're going to have to agree to disagree on, it's a very primal thing. You're not about to convince me that a chicken is equivalent to a human, however mentally disabled. In fact, many people would find the notion pretty offensive.

In my defence I don't agree with the whole mentally disabled thing, that should have been worded very differently.
I do understand that we identify far more with our own species then with others, but I don't think a case needs to be made for the similaritys because there are plenty (we eat, sleep,ect..), it's kind of like saying 'there is a god now you have to disprove it'
I'd also like to say thanks for being one of the level headed people in the forum, much appreciated.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

His point was that she wasn't doing much to dispel that.

Why should I have to? There was no hypocrisy in my statement and this thread is full of people who are attacking veganism so why should I have to hold back the punches?

Do I really need to answer that?

It's like screaming that you're 'not angry' or something.

You're not dispelling anyones assertion that most vegans are condescending and smug by being condescending and smug.

And your making generalisations like alot of the people in this thread, do you not see how that could be frustration.

 

[TwiZtah]

Well when we're just examining Veganism then it's mostly pertaining to Dairy and Eggs. While I have no problem with eggs, they are for the most part an aborted fetus... sort of, and considering how some religious idealist crack pots feel about human abortion they might just need to rethink how other animals are treated (I don't give two shits however).

Dairy I have a big problem with, it's not good for you at all really (unless it's human). Every nutritional value found in a glass of milk can be better found in just about any vegetable. Animals are not supposed to drink other species milk, because alongside with Calcium and vitamins a mothers milk is absolutely loaded with species specific hormones and White Blood Cells, and if your drinking another species White Blood Cells then you are just having a big old glass of Pus!

I'm not a Vegan by any means, but I do try to eat properly when I can (but we all have our vices). Let's put bull shit morality aside, we are Apex predators and it's a very big universe, and if we aren't going to eat these animals we would certainly have to consider getting rid of the ones that don't benefit us. We can't get bogged down with nonsense about mistreating lower animals... when we can treat our fellow man with respect and dignity then it may be time to consider the Chickens and Cows.

It's important to note that there is nothing remotely as bad for you in red meat as is in a KitKat bar! Simple sugars are literally tearing society apart, but that is all part of a much larger debate regarding farm subsidies which is a big part of the Economically Fucked world we are creating!

Just wanted to put it out there, both Whey and Casseine is made from dairy milk, both of these can't be found in any other product (to my knowledge). These are some of the best proteins for building muscle, if they find whey and casseine in anything else, I will abolish dairy from my diet, or if someone finds a better protein.

Yes, we are apex predators, but how much do we actually hunt in the modern age? The space cows etc. take up could be seeded and would pretty much feed the world. 1000 litres of water is required to make 1 kg of meat, versus 10 liters for 1 kg of crops. This is my biggest concern, the meat industry is one of the most ruining practices on earth.

 

[Jammy2003]

True, we have bred them to be that way, and the majority of them would die. Pretty sure there are a lot of quote supporting the sentiment of dying free is better than living a slave, besides, they'll die soon anyway to be served as meat.

Also, dairy cows need to be milked constantly as they are constantly cycled through pregnant and having just given birth. Whenever the milk dries up they are impregnanted again to make them produce, just like humans only produce after birth. Leave them with their calves, and they'll "milk" their mothers do the cow wont die a painful, drawn out death.

That's not what they asked though. They asked

Please enlighten me, why would it?

In response to someone saying they would die without us.

I'm not arguing the merits of keeping them alive over letting them die. Just informing them that they would indeed die.

Also, animals bred for production such as egg laying chickens and dairy cows aren't killed for meat because they're more useful alive. They haven't been bred for the best cuts.

And mastitis is a very slow and painful death. And I'm fairly sure dairy cows haven't been pregnancy cycled for years. I'm pretty sure the majority of it is hormone endued. RBST etc.

True, you did so I'll leave that point. However the world won't suddenly change overnight, it would be a gradual process so this theoretical situation will never happen.

They aren't used for prime meat no.... until they stop producing so well. Then they'll be ground up for whatever purpose. And as they are forced to produce so heavily, their lifespans are usually pretty short before they reach this stage.

A good chunk are still, as hormone treatment gets into the milk and has given people cause for concern. Think it's banned in some places? I'm not as informed on that as I could be. And even if it's only the organic products, that's still a fair number of cows pregnancy cycled.

So even if they were induced to produce through hormones, and some do die from mastitis, if they were released after having given birth, the calf would drink until the hormones left the cows system in any case.

 

[The_Lost_King]

I don't even understand vegetarians. It isn't like they are making a difference. They aren't saving any animals by giving up meat. The only way to stop us from killing animals is to have everyone be a vegetarian and that isn't going to happen because it is the laws of nature for us to eat meat. If we start becoming herbivores next thing you know Monkeys are top of the food chain.