Then why are you bothering to argue with me? I honestly have better things to do than argue over beliefs on a forum. If you're as intelligent and clever as you're trying to make out to be then so do you.Treblaine said:
Vegetarians - why?
- Thread starter Hader
- Start date
I became a veggie because I didn't like meat. Only for a few years until I moved out to go to uni.
I lived on a beef farm and have no problem with the meat industry.
I stopped being a veggie because I started doing a lot of exercise and hated relying on supplements so much. It was hard restarting again.
I now consider myself a picky bugger! I'll eat anything pretty much untill it comes things like really fatty bacon, steaks and meat with bones. Its more about how it comes than what it is for me.
I lived on a beef farm and have no problem with the meat industry.
I stopped being a veggie because I started doing a lot of exercise and hated relying on supplements so much. It was hard restarting again.
I now consider myself a picky bugger! I'll eat anything pretty much untill it comes things like really fatty bacon, steaks and meat with bones. Its more about how it comes than what it is for me.
Whoa "unintentionally"?psyks said:
What do you think pest control entails, asking the hoards of pests to politely not eat all your crops. Perhaps scaring them away but never deliberately hurting them? No, it means DELIBERATELY KILLING THEM!
Far more deaths than with grass reared livestock. Slow deaths from poisoning, wounding by gunshot, and starvation as their habitat is ovetaken. Any idea the effect farming has had on wildlife populations?
Cows are NOT get tortured to get meat. Do not lie. Any farmer who tortures a cow is a fool, it reduces the quality and yield of milk and meat, one keeps them comfortable, healthy and well fed if you have a grain of sense.
Some people abuse animals, but that is criminal. Just like some people abuse people. It's crazy talk to say cows need to be liberated, they are utterly dependant on people to care for them.
I suppose they simply don't like the taste of it. Or maybe they have animal friends and see it as murder. Doesn't matter really, just means more meat for me.
Because as much as I know how futile it would be I don't want you to post such nonsense and think it is sensible simply because no one challenges it.JasonKaotic said:
I've told you it's nonsense, maybe if enough people tell you that you'll stop to consider how unrealistic your ideals are.
Eventually you'll come around, we all go through stages like this where we seem to have "it all figured out" when really we're just deluding ourself.
Wow. You think I'm stupid, and look at this.Treblaine said:
Allow me to educate you on the purpose of this thread.
In the original post, the poster clearly asked, "What are your reasons for it?"
To which, I replied with my reasons for being a vegetarian.
But then, along comes grumpy old Treblaine! He doesn't like vegetarians very much! NO, says Treblaine! I do NOT like this! I will argue and tell him his beliefs are WRONG! And then I will tell him not to post in places! Because he is WRONG!
If you have problems with people stating their beliefs when someone asks for them, there's always the option of not reading topics where people ask for peoples' beliefs.
When I was 4 and living in a compound in Bangladesh, I watched one afternoon as a cow was led in, killed, hung from a tree, bled and butchered. Then I happily ate steak for the first, and definitely not last, time. The butchering had to be done at our home because its a predominantly Hindu country, and cows are sacred.
Now I hunt, kill, skin and dress my own meat, and I love it. I make a mean ass deer sausage! I will always eat meat. I will always love meat. One day, just for the hell of eat, I'd like to eat a vegetarian, preferably someone from PETA.
Now I hunt, kill, skin and dress my own meat, and I love it. I make a mean ass deer sausage! I will always eat meat. I will always love meat. One day, just for the hell of eat, I'd like to eat a vegetarian, preferably someone from PETA.
Don't delude yourself that moral superiority is a defence mechanism, if a super advanced alien race came along and starts destroying us then they won't spare the vegans.Ampersand said:
It also does not follow logically that "not wanting to be killed" therefore means "one should not kill". It's the Sucker's Fallacy. Look at the Prisoner's Dilemma and Richard Dawkins' studies into it.
The reason you don't want to be killed is because you will cease to live, you care about that because your life is precious to yourself, so to are the lives of your loved ones and once you get to know them all humans on this planet (except maybe a few psychopaths).
But a chicken's life is not precious, it has no capability, it has no potential.
It's a chicken. It should not suffer unduly but it is no loss for it to cease living, most of what it contributes to the world are its physical by-products.
I had no idea you were so sensitive about being told you have flawed reasoning.JasonKaotic said:
Perhaps you doubt your own beliefs? Getting disturbed by the "logical" underpinning being so eroded, not much left but the bare prejudices.
Don't mistake objection to flawed logic to a blanket prejudice is basic beliefs.
Particularly:
"I was only saying that we shouldn't farm animals. Get rid of vegetable farms completely if you want to, I don't care. I just think we should handle our meat eating how we're supposed to. How other animals do."
Ah yes, just copy the animals. That's such an inane reductionist argument to say we shouldn't farm simply because other animals don't.
Sorry, but the person I was replying to wasn't talking about pest control, the term he used was "being run over by a combine harvester". The distinction I'm making is about regarding animals as property. Pest control doesn't fit into that category since there is still a degree of liberty and the element of ownership or slavery isn't raised at any point. What worries me more is that you interpret "slow deaths from poisoning, wounded by gunshot and starvation" as giving you carte blanche to eat meat rather than calling for more humane treatment. I'm not going to lie, I don't know a lot about pest control techniques, but I know that cows sure as fuck are tortured for meat. Here's a link to a lovely site whose videos I barely have the stomach to watch:Treblaine said:
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations.aspx
I won't make the claim that all animals are kept like that - I live next door to a farm that keeps its animals in great conditions - but torture doesn't end at the living conditions. Slaughterhouses are mostly the same and torture is very legal.
source- http://www.cok.net/lit/freerange.php
If you admit that animals are tortured so you can eat, then you'll see how many cognitive leaps you've made to arrive at your position.
No, I just don't like being told I'm wrong when stating my stronger beliefs. It went from a debate I was fine with to you flat out telling me I'm wrong.Treblaine said:
So I doubt my own beliefs because I got annoyed about that? You're really, really not very bright. But whatever. I'll 'debate' some more.
It's got nothing to do with copying the animals. It's to do with ethics. Other animals don't farm because they don't have the ability to. We shouldn't because it's wrong. So it's nothing to do with copying. I believe that animals should have the chance to live instead of being stuck in a small area of grass their entire lives, to be dragged away and shot or decapitated or however the particular abbatoir does it before ANY of them get ANY chance to live their whole lives. Entire species of animals imprisoned and butchered. The fact that you're assuming I want to stop farming just to copy other animals proves you haven't listened to anything I've said.
As a semi-vegetarian, I will say that producing meat is more costly for our environment than producing vegetables. For example, raising a single pound of beef will take the same amount of water that a West African family of four will use in an entire month. It also produces overwhelming amounts of greenhouse gas emissions -- about the same as driving a car at highway speeds for 150 miles.
I'm not sure what the numbers are, but in order to produce a single pound of meat, you need to feed the animal several pounds of vegetables. For example, I'm 135 pounds, but I've eaten way more than that many pounds of food in my lifetime -- producing a pound of food takes several pounds of whatever food *your* food eats. Considering the fact that about a billion people around the World struggle with serious hunger issues, it seems a little unfair that we'll eat a pound of beef when we could just eat a pound of tofu and give the extra food that we saved to starving people overseas.
Also, generally speaking, red meat tends to be bad for your health.
I'm not sure what the numbers are, but in order to produce a single pound of meat, you need to feed the animal several pounds of vegetables. For example, I'm 135 pounds, but I've eaten way more than that many pounds of food in my lifetime -- producing a pound of food takes several pounds of whatever food *your* food eats. Considering the fact that about a billion people around the World struggle with serious hunger issues, it seems a little unfair that we'll eat a pound of beef when we could just eat a pound of tofu and give the extra food that we saved to starving people overseas.
Also, generally speaking, red meat tends to be bad for your health.
Not if the human is armed, and we can and do eat sharks. In fact, there aren't a whole lot of animals that AREN'T eaten by some society or another. In contrast, there is no animal on earth for which "human" is a staple of their diet. So yeah, we're the top. You can think otherwise, but you'd be in disagreement with, you know, science.E-mantheseeker said:
I dunno about that. Any of the many species of insects and bacteria that feed on decomposing flesh could easily list "human" as a staple of their diet. Once we kick the bucket, we are as much a dinner entree as any cow ever ground up into hamburger.PhiMed said:
There is no "food chain", its a big circle that keeps going round and we are all gonna get eaten eventually. Don't make me sing "Circle of Life" from the Lion King at you.
If you do some research, you'll find that the number of sharks that humans kill on a yearly basis drastically outweighs the number of humans that sharks kill in that same amount of time.E-mantheseeker said:
"What worries me more is that you interpret "slow deaths from poisoning, wounded by gunshot and starvation" as giving you carte blanche to eat meat rather than calling for more humane treatment."psyks said:
Straw man argument.
You are dodging the issue that avoiding the eating of animal products avoids animals dying for your food. I'm pointing out that your reasoning is flawed due to ignorance of actual farming practices. To live a life where you are not even indirectly responsible for animals dying is unsustainable but for a tiny privileged part of the population.
I eat meat not because animals are killed even in the growing of crops. I eat meat because I like eating it and I have a sense of proportion and distinction when it comes to the value of life, not flat absolutes like 'all life is equal'.
Slavery. Animals. Give me a break. You try leaving gates open in the countryside and you will get animals and people killed as cows wander into traffic.
I find it intellectually dishonest that you would compare animal husbandry to slavery. No cow has ever stood up the address the legislature that "Are we not men, and your brothers?", please you show your ignorance of history and abuse of peoples' perceptions.
Looking beyond you giving me such a biased and un-reputable source as mercyforanimals.com this doesn't change the fact that these practices are both the exception and illegal but more than that unnecessary to the actual business of meat production. No reason to ban meat industry.
The harvesting is fully intended and as we understand it will be an inevitable bloodbath as we go into it I see nothing unintentional about it. It is called a calculated risk and apparently we come out fine with the risk every time. veg*ns included.psyks said:
Why is the careless murder of 100's of small animals less worse than my calculated killing of a single one for the same reasons? (to provide me with food)
It doesnt fly and you know it. To cut it in short
Vegan diet = 100's of animals suffered and died.
Carnivore diet on freerange grass fed = 1 animal die.
yet somehow you want to paint me as less compasionate?! WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW THE FRIGGIN VEG*N ETHICAL EQUATION WORKS?!