Vegetarians - why?

[ScumbagEddie]

I love how some say they don't eat living things. Yes, I've heard that one before. So to people who take that stance, quit eating vegetables. They're living too.

I always see someone make this point on these forums.
I feel as though I'd be remiss not to warn you that if you can't see any difference between killing an animal and killing a plant, then you're probably a sociopath.

Also you're not going to win an argument base on semantics.: /

Funny, bud. I don't remember quoting anyone in my previous post, therefore, I don't believe I was arguing anything. I stated an observation that ran through my head that made me chuckle and decided to share it with others. Frankly, it appears that you're the one looking for arguments. Who, exactly, are you to "warn" anyone of anything? Also, who are you to judge the mental state of another person on this forum for posting a random thought. Start your fights elsewhere XD

 

[ScumbagEddie]

I feel as though I'd be remiss not to warn you that if you can't see any difference between killing an animal and killing a plant, then you're probably a sociopath.

Why? Because the plant doesnt have big wet eyes to look at you with? A chain of chemical reactions that are similar to how our nerve system reacts to pain and suffering happens in the plant if you hurt it. It even sends out a chemical warning signal to surrounding plants.

And then there is a F-in hipocricy. I eat apx. 1 cow a year. I know my source so its the same for all the parts of cows I have eaten. For me personally. apx a cow a year. Thats the one single animal that has to die to sustain me. Since it is freerange and only feeds on grass, no animals died to support it beyond the unlucky bugs it munched. Do you hear me. to feed me for a year 1, ONE, UNO, EINZ a single animal has to die for my sustainance.

To feed you the vegan and vegetarian, hundreds of small rodents, birds, reptiles and such has to die. The lucky ones are killed by the combine harvester.....then theres the petrolium based fertilizers, pesticides and such...

So how does your ethical equation work. Pound for pound?. Ill admit, my animal was 400kg heavy, while all those small animals killed on the fields that fed you probably wouldnt weight as much lumped together. If the equation is. 1:1 (the logical one that dictates, killing animals is wrong period)then you are not on the high ethical road you may think yourself. Just sayin.

edit: in other words. The vegans plate is covered with blood, but youll be hard pressed to have them admit it.

I like your position, bud. Good looking out

 

[Ampersand]

I feel as though I'd be remiss not to warn you that if you can't see any difference between killing an animal and killing a plant, then you're probably a sociopath.

Why? Because the plant doesnt have big wet eyes to look at you with? A chain of chemical reactions that are similar to how our nerve system reacts to pain and suffering happens in the plant if you hurt it. It even sends out a chemical warning signal to surrounding plants.

And then there is a F-in hipocricy. I eat apx. 1 cow a year. I know my source so its the same for all the parts of cows I have eaten. For me personally. apx a cow a year. Thats the one single animal that has to die to sustain me. Since it is freerange and only feeds on grass, no animals died to support it beyond the unlucky bugs it munched. Do you hear me. to feed me for a year 1, ONE, UNO, EINZ a single animal has to die for my sustainance.

To feed you the vegan and vegetarian, hundreds of small rodents, birds, reptiles and such has to die. The lucky ones are killed by the combine harvester.....then theres the petrolium based fertilizers, pesticides and such...

So how does your ethical equation work. Pound for pound?. Ill admit, my animal was 400kg heavy, while all those small animals killed on the fields that fed you probably wouldnt weight as much lumped together. If the equation is. 1:1 (the logical one that dictates, killing animals is wrong period)then you are not on the high ethical road you may think yourself. Just sayin.

edit: in other words. The vegans plate is covered with blood, but youll be hard pressed to have them admit it.

Plant's don't feel pain, they don't have any systems in place to interpret what pain is.
It seems a little sadistic that you would pretend that they do. I'm really sorry man but picking a flower isn't exactly like strangling a cat.

Why didn't you mention any of the people killed in farming accidents, I mean it's a pretty dangerous profession and you're bound to pluck on a few of my heart strings if you pull out that little chestnut.

You and I are powerful animals and we are bound to cause a certain amount of damage to those around us just by walking around, that's basically impossible to avoid as much as I do hate to admit it but it is our responsibility not to cause harm or unnecessary death on purpose. I'm not a stranger to the taste of blood but I don't go looking for it.

 

[Treblaine]

I hate the whole human superiority thing. What we do isn't natural.
If a human kills an animal it's acceptable, but if an animal kills a human IT'S EVIL AND DESERVES TO DIE!

Evil is not an absolute construct. It IS relative and subjective.

If aliens come to kill us you can say:

"hey you can't kill me, I'm a vegan"

And see how far that gets you. I think anyone with any common sense would not submit to death just because they did the same to animals with minuscule brains that is barely capable of the most simple thought.

Illusion of moral superiority doesn't count for shit when you're dead.

...What? That's not my point at all and you know it. My point was that nothing makes humans more important than animals. I was using an example. Nothing to do with us surviving.

Humans are more important to humans than animals because we are humans.

To put the locust before the human is catastrophic.

So, just because? That's not a reason. Not one part of the human body makes them superior to other life....

And I'm not putting locusts before humans. That's the exact opposite of my point. I'm saying they're as important as us, not more important. That they have as much right to live as us, and however many human superiority zealots like you there are, nothing changes that.

Who said anything about superior?

To the locust, locusts are more important than humans. To the chimpanzee, chimpanzees are more important than humans or any other species. You have to look out for your species or it will go the way of the dodo.

To put locusts on equal level with humans IS putting humans on a lower level.

You try telling your nonsense to farmers who FEED YOU that he should treat locusts the same respect as human and they'll laugh. You try large scale farming - even entirely vegetables/grain - and see how far you'll get when you are over-run with pests destroying your crop and even your ability to survive.

You can respect a locust's "right to live" as much as you like but it will NEVER respect your right. Swarms of them will destroy your crops and they will eat and reproduce on such a scale with utter disregard to how it will drive you to famine and death.

Only domesticated animals after hundreds of year of breeding and being tamed from birth can come close to respecting human life.

 

[Ampersand]

I love how some say they don't eat living things. Yes, I've heard that one before. So to people who take that stance, quit eating vegetables. They're living too.

I always see someone make this point on these forums.
I feel as though I'd be remiss not to warn you that if you can't see any difference between killing an animal and killing a plant, then you're probably a sociopath.

Also you're not going to win an argument base on semantics.: /

Funny, bud. I don't remember quoting anyone in my previous post, therefore, I don't believe I was arguing anything. I stated an observation that ran through my head that made me chuckle and decided to share it with others. Frankly, it appears that you're the one looking for arguments. Who, exactly, are you to "warn" anyone of anything? Also, who are you to judge the mental state of another person on this forum for posting a random thought. Start your fights elsewhere XD

yeah I realized that after posting, probably should have edited, my bad.
I'd think I'm pretty capable of judging someones medal state to a limited extent, for example if I saw a kid picking flowers I'd probably think he was alright, but if I saw a kid pulling the heads off of chickens for the lols I'd be pretty safe in assuming that there was something pretty wrong with him.
I'm not trying to fight anyone i'm just making an observation. Incidentally if you didn't want anyone to respond to you then why did you post?

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

Plant's don't feel pain, they don't have any systems in place to interpret what pain is.

to interpret pain as WE understand it. Why the speciesism? What we can observe is that if we hurt the plant, a chain reaction of chemicals takes place, one of which is sending out what appear to be a warning to surounding plants. What do you think is going on?

Why didn't you mention any of the people killed in farming accidents

humans usually doesnt count where animal rights activists are concerned. Also if we accept we are an animal, then the amount of our kind that dies compared to those of avian or rodentia variety are so small as to be irrelevant in statistics. For every guy run over by his harvester, how many rodents got the turn?

We still havent established how the ethical equation works. Is it pound for pound or animal for animal or something else?

You and I are powerful animals and we are bound to cause a certain amount of damage to those around us just by walking around, that's basically impossible to avoid as much as I do hate to admit it but it is our responsibility not to cause harm or unnecessary death on purpose.

In that case I strongly encourage you to become a carnivore and find a good supply of food stuff. This way you can minimize the amount of animal suffering to the bare minimum and no crushing from harvesters or slow death by poisoning are involved.

You see, we have to eat. Fact!. So if your ethics dictate to cause as little suffering to animals as possible then you should obviously choose a path that hurts as few animals as possible.

So forgive me if I am confused. There seem to be a mismatch between what you want to achieve and what you are doing.

 

[Treblaine]

Plant's don't feel pain, they don't have any systems in place to interpret what pain is.

What is pain without a meaningful consciousness?

Pain in itself is not a problem, there are many people who LIKE pain, masochism is well understood now in the sexual aspect and also less understood but undeniably outside the sexual context. Pain itself is just a neural signal, it is how the brain interprets it that matters. Look into how surgeons can operate on patients without any painkillers, just high doses of anti-anxiety medicine... they FEEL the pain, but it just doesn't feel "bad".

Pain is a problem for the intense negative emotions it inflicts on the person. If you were to inject someone with a drug that stimulated the brain to feel these emotions it would be equally horrible and apparently torturers use this to devastating effect.

But what about an animal that doesn't have emotions, only instincts. It may know to avoid pain but does it actually get sad, does it feel grief, mental torment and horror?

Does a fish feel anguish when caught in a net?

Does a chicken in fact feel pain when it is decapitated, it would lose consciousness instantly. Does it actually suffer? It's a basic principal of animal husbandry to kill animals humanely, quickly and as painlessly as possible.

If it doesn't suffer then how is it different from a plant? Both get hurt, both do not suffer.

 

[JasonKaotic]

Snip

You did. You're saying humans are more important than other animals.
And no, they're not. Animals don't have concept of importance. They do what they need to survive because it's the only way they can survive. What we do isn't the only way we can survive, and it's far from the fairest way we can. You can hate on locusts for destroying crops, but would you scream at a baby if it hurt you? No, because it doesn't know any better.

For one thing, the farmers who 'FEED ME' aren't doing it to feed me, they're doing it to earn a living, so don't even bother using that they 'FEED ME' against me. I don't tell my "nonsense" to people, unlike you I keep it to myself and let people be. This thread was asking for peoples' views on the subject so I gave my views. And when did I ever say we should only try large scale vegetable farming? I was only saying that we shouldn't farm animals. Get rid of vegetable farms completely if you want to, I don't care. I just think we should handle our meat eating how we're supposed to. How other animals do. Instead of hoarding animals into small areas for their entire lives, forcing them to adapt to fit that lifestyle, and butchering them before they get any kind of chance to live out their whole life, we should just go out and kill what we need. Like they do. That way, these animals will get a chance to actually live, instead of them being bred to die.
Swarms of them will eat the crops and reproduce because that's how they survive. It's how they're adapted to survive. It's nature. On top of that, locusts lack the intelligence to know that what they're doing is harming anything (before you use that against me, I've already said our higher intelligence doesn't make us better).

You have no idea what other animals respect human life. Not that they can be blamed if they don't, with what we do to them. But even if you are right with that, domesticated animals shouldn't even be the way they are. We've forced them to do what we want them to do, yet another act of humans' self-importance. They only possibly respect us because we've forced that into them.

 

[Don't taze me bro]

I'm not a veggie. I have friends that are, due to them believing in Hindu. It makes me have to double check the food I offer them, as I forget that they don't eat anything containing gelatin.

 

[Ampersand]

Plant's don't feel pain, they don't have any systems in place to interpret what pain is.

What is pain without a meaningful consciousness?

Pain in itself is not a problem, there are many people who LIKE pain, masochism is well understood now in the sexual aspect and also less understood but undeniably outside the sexual context. Pain itself is just a neural signal, it is how the brain interprets it that matters. Look into how surgeons can operate on patients without any painkillers, just high doses of anti-anxiety medicine... they FEEL the pain, but it just doesn't feel "bad".

Pain is a problem for the intense negative emotions it inflicts on the person. If you were to inject someone with a drug that stimulated the brain to feel these emotions it would be equally horrible and apparently torturers use this to devastating effect.

But what about an animal that doesn't have emotions, only instincts. It may know to avoid pain but does it actually get sad, does it feel grief, mental torment and horror?

Does a fish feel anguish when caught in a net?

Does a chicken in fact feel pain when it is decapitated, it would lose consciousness instantly. Does it actually suffer? It's a basic principal of animal husbandry to kill animals humanely, quickly and as painlessly as possible.

If it doesn't suffer then how is it different from a plant? Both get hurt, both do not suffer.

I wouldn't feel any pain if you cut off my head either. It's still not cool. Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

But scores of small animals doesnt because we must have those lentis, grains and soy? I would still like to know exactly how the ethics in this works.

 

[Ampersand]

Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

But scores of small animals doesnt because we must have those lentis, grains and soy? I would still like to know exactly how the ethics in this works.

Did you not get the message where I answered this the first time, here you go.

"Why didn't you mention any of the people killed in farming accidents, I mean it's a pretty dangerous profession and you're bound to pluck on a few of my heart strings if you pull out that little chestnut.

You and I are powerful animals and we are bound to cause a certain amount of damage to those around us just by walking around, that's basically impossible to avoid as much as I do hate to admit it but it is our responsibility not to cause harm or unnecessary death on purpose. I'm not a stranger to the taste of blood but I don't go looking for it."

In case that's to subtle for you the jist is that killing animals on purpose isn't the same as them dying in accidents that a lot of people try pretty hard to avoid. (for most of them i'd imagine it's not really for ethical reasons but rather to avoid damage to machines or lawsuits or whatever.)

 

[ZiggyE]

Personally, I find the idea of breeding for slaughter repulsive, especially the conditions some of these animals are kept under.

But I don't particularly enjoy the taste of meat, so why not be vegetarian?

 

[lSHaDoW-FoXl]

I'm a vegetarian and one of my own personal reasons is because I simply don't like eating animals. The other reason is because of Factory Farming. Health wise it's bad for us and some pretty cruel shit goes on in those places.

 

[Ampersand]

I'm a vegetarian and one of my own personal reasons is because I simply don't like eating animals. The other reason is because of Factory Farming. Health wise it's bad for us and some pretty cruel shit goes on in those places.

Yeah I feel the same.

 

[Treblaine]

Snip

You did. You're saying humans are more important than other animals.
And no, they're not. Animals don't have concept of importance. They do what they need to survive because it's the only way they can survive. What we do isn't the only way we can survive, and it's far from the fairest way we can. You can hate on locusts for destroying crops, but would you scream at a baby if it hurt you? No, because it doesn't know any better.

For one thing, the farmers who 'FEED ME' aren't doing it to feed me, they're doing it to earn a living, so don't even bother using that they 'FEED ME' against me. I don't tell my "nonsense" to people, unlike you I keep it to myself and let people be. This thread was asking for peoples' views on the subject so I gave my views. And when did I ever say we should only try large scale vegetable farming? I was only saying that we shouldn't farm animals. Get rid of vegetable farms completely if you want to, I don't care. I just think we should handle our meat eating how we're supposed to. How other animals do. Instead of hoarding animals into small areas for their entire lives, forcing them to adapt to fit that lifestyle, and butchering them before they get any kind of chance to live out their whole life, we should just go out and kill what we need. Like they do. That way, these animals will get a chance to actually live, instead of them being bred to die.
Swarms of them will eat the crops and reproduce because that's how they survive. It's how they're adapted to survive. It's nature. On top of that, locusts lack the intelligence to know that what they're doing is harming anything (before you use that against me, I've already said our higher intelligence doesn't make us better).

You have no idea what other animals respect human life. Not that they can be blamed if they don't, with what we do to them. But even if you are right with that, domesticated animals shouldn't even be the way they are. We've forced them to do what we want them to do, yet another act of humans' self-importance. They only possibly respect us because we've forced that into them.

Hilarious, really hilarious the simplistic and shallow ideas you have.

You really think you can keep 9 billion people on this planet fed without farming and depending on foraging / hunting wild animals?

You are grossly misinformed about hunting and farming, particularly how long animals in hunted regions live and how sustainable hunting is if it is used for anything but supplement to overall food source.

Locusts' lack of comprehension is no excuse to let them destroy pivotal food crops.

Thanks for you're views but you are wholly failing to convince me of anything, it just seems like you are very very confused.

 

[psyks]

Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

But scores of small animals doesnt because we must have those lentis, grains and soy? I would still like to know exactly how the ethics in this works.

Wow man, so you're equating unintentionally running over small animals with a combine harvester and keeping cows in cages or growing veal or grinding up chicks into feed? I know you probably pride yourself in being able to isolate your emotions where you can compare harvesting a plant and torturing a cow, but have a heart. Can you really not make that distinction?

 

[JasonKaotic]

Thanks for you're views but you are wholly failing to convince me of anything

When did I ever say I'm trying to convince you of anything? You started the argument. Eat meat 'til you bloat and die for all I care, I'm just defending my own beliefs.

 

[Treblaine]

I wouldn't feel any pain if you cut off my head either. It's still not cool. Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

Yeah, those chickens could have contributed to society, such rich lives to live. They had a chance to university, train as an art restorer and settle down with a woman and share jokes and regal stories with their other farm animal friends.(sarc)

Wait no, they'd peck at the ground all day getting fat on seeds we grew for them!

Chickens are bred for eggs and when they can't lay eggs any more, what then? Just let them grow old? Let them starve to death? Killing them would be humane and less wasteful but then what? Throw their delicious chicken meat into a pond and let it rot?

People =/= chickens

I know Disney have done an amazing job of inserting the idea that all animals are real thinking people if only they could somehow communicate with us, they really aren't.

Don't be like the psychopath from The Hunted who justifies murdering dozens of people because "thousands of battery chickens are killed every day".

 

[Treblaine]

Thanks for you're views but you are wholly failing to convince me of anything

When did I ever say I'm trying to convince you of anything? You started the argument. Eat meat 'til you bloat and die for all I care, I'm just defending my own beliefs.

Well you're not doing a good job of defending your beliefs either, it seems utterly illogical and ethically muddled.