Vegetarians - why?

[Treblaine]

Plant's don't feel pain, they don't have any systems in place to interpret what pain is.

What is pain without a meaningful consciousness?

Pain in itself is not a problem, there are many people who LIKE pain, masochism is well understood now in the sexual aspect and also less understood but undeniably outside the sexual context. Pain itself is just a neural signal, it is how the brain interprets it that matters. Look into how surgeons can operate on patients without any painkillers, just high doses of anti-anxiety medicine... they FEEL the pain, but it just doesn't feel "bad".

Pain is a problem for the intense negative emotions it inflicts on the person. If you were to inject someone with a drug that stimulated the brain to feel these emotions it would be equally horrible and apparently torturers use this to devastating effect.

But what about an animal that doesn't have emotions, only instincts. It may know to avoid pain but does it actually get sad, does it feel grief, mental torment and horror?

Does a fish feel anguish when caught in a net?

Does a chicken in fact feel pain when it is decapitated, it would lose consciousness instantly. Does it actually suffer? It's a basic principal of animal husbandry to kill animals humanely, quickly and as painlessly as possible.

If it doesn't suffer then how is it different from a plant? Both get hurt, both do not suffer.

 

[JasonKaotic]

Snip

You did. You're saying humans are more important than other animals.
And no, they're not. Animals don't have concept of importance. They do what they need to survive because it's the only way they can survive. What we do isn't the only way we can survive, and it's far from the fairest way we can. You can hate on locusts for destroying crops, but would you scream at a baby if it hurt you? No, because it doesn't know any better.

For one thing, the farmers who 'FEED ME' aren't doing it to feed me, they're doing it to earn a living, so don't even bother using that they 'FEED ME' against me. I don't tell my "nonsense" to people, unlike you I keep it to myself and let people be. This thread was asking for peoples' views on the subject so I gave my views. And when did I ever say we should only try large scale vegetable farming? I was only saying that we shouldn't farm animals. Get rid of vegetable farms completely if you want to, I don't care. I just think we should handle our meat eating how we're supposed to. How other animals do. Instead of hoarding animals into small areas for their entire lives, forcing them to adapt to fit that lifestyle, and butchering them before they get any kind of chance to live out their whole life, we should just go out and kill what we need. Like they do. That way, these animals will get a chance to actually live, instead of them being bred to die.
Swarms of them will eat the crops and reproduce because that's how they survive. It's how they're adapted to survive. It's nature. On top of that, locusts lack the intelligence to know that what they're doing is harming anything (before you use that against me, I've already said our higher intelligence doesn't make us better).

You have no idea what other animals respect human life. Not that they can be blamed if they don't, with what we do to them. But even if you are right with that, domesticated animals shouldn't even be the way they are. We've forced them to do what we want them to do, yet another act of humans' self-importance. They only possibly respect us because we've forced that into them.

 

[Don't taze me bro]

I'm not a veggie. I have friends that are, due to them believing in Hindu. It makes me have to double check the food I offer them, as I forget that they don't eat anything containing gelatin.

 

[Ampersand]

Plant's don't feel pain, they don't have any systems in place to interpret what pain is.

What is pain without a meaningful consciousness?

Pain in itself is not a problem, there are many people who LIKE pain, masochism is well understood now in the sexual aspect and also less understood but undeniably outside the sexual context. Pain itself is just a neural signal, it is how the brain interprets it that matters. Look into how surgeons can operate on patients without any painkillers, just high doses of anti-anxiety medicine... they FEEL the pain, but it just doesn't feel "bad".

Pain is a problem for the intense negative emotions it inflicts on the person. If you were to inject someone with a drug that stimulated the brain to feel these emotions it would be equally horrible and apparently torturers use this to devastating effect.

But what about an animal that doesn't have emotions, only instincts. It may know to avoid pain but does it actually get sad, does it feel grief, mental torment and horror?

Does a fish feel anguish when caught in a net?

Does a chicken in fact feel pain when it is decapitated, it would lose consciousness instantly. Does it actually suffer? It's a basic principal of animal husbandry to kill animals humanely, quickly and as painlessly as possible.

If it doesn't suffer then how is it different from a plant? Both get hurt, both do not suffer.

I wouldn't feel any pain if you cut off my head either. It's still not cool. Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

But scores of small animals doesnt because we must have those lentis, grains and soy? I would still like to know exactly how the ethics in this works.

 

[Ampersand]

Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

But scores of small animals doesnt because we must have those lentis, grains and soy? I would still like to know exactly how the ethics in this works.

Did you not get the message where I answered this the first time, here you go.

"Why didn't you mention any of the people killed in farming accidents, I mean it's a pretty dangerous profession and you're bound to pluck on a few of my heart strings if you pull out that little chestnut.

You and I are powerful animals and we are bound to cause a certain amount of damage to those around us just by walking around, that's basically impossible to avoid as much as I do hate to admit it but it is our responsibility not to cause harm or unnecessary death on purpose. I'm not a stranger to the taste of blood but I don't go looking for it."

In case that's to subtle for you the jist is that killing animals on purpose isn't the same as them dying in accidents that a lot of people try pretty hard to avoid. (for most of them i'd imagine it's not really for ethical reasons but rather to avoid damage to machines or lawsuits or whatever.)

 

[ZiggyE]

Personally, I find the idea of breeding for slaughter repulsive, especially the conditions some of these animals are kept under.

But I don't particularly enjoy the taste of meat, so why not be vegetarian?

 

[lSHaDoW-FoXl]

I'm a vegetarian and one of my own personal reasons is because I simply don't like eating animals. The other reason is because of Factory Farming. Health wise it's bad for us and some pretty cruel shit goes on in those places.

 

[Ampersand]

I'm a vegetarian and one of my own personal reasons is because I simply don't like eating animals. The other reason is because of Factory Farming. Health wise it's bad for us and some pretty cruel shit goes on in those places.

Yeah I feel the same.

 

[Treblaine]

Snip

You did. You're saying humans are more important than other animals.
And no, they're not. Animals don't have concept of importance. They do what they need to survive because it's the only way they can survive. What we do isn't the only way we can survive, and it's far from the fairest way we can. You can hate on locusts for destroying crops, but would you scream at a baby if it hurt you? No, because it doesn't know any better.

For one thing, the farmers who 'FEED ME' aren't doing it to feed me, they're doing it to earn a living, so don't even bother using that they 'FEED ME' against me. I don't tell my "nonsense" to people, unlike you I keep it to myself and let people be. This thread was asking for peoples' views on the subject so I gave my views. And when did I ever say we should only try large scale vegetable farming? I was only saying that we shouldn't farm animals. Get rid of vegetable farms completely if you want to, I don't care. I just think we should handle our meat eating how we're supposed to. How other animals do. Instead of hoarding animals into small areas for their entire lives, forcing them to adapt to fit that lifestyle, and butchering them before they get any kind of chance to live out their whole life, we should just go out and kill what we need. Like they do. That way, these animals will get a chance to actually live, instead of them being bred to die.
Swarms of them will eat the crops and reproduce because that's how they survive. It's how they're adapted to survive. It's nature. On top of that, locusts lack the intelligence to know that what they're doing is harming anything (before you use that against me, I've already said our higher intelligence doesn't make us better).

You have no idea what other animals respect human life. Not that they can be blamed if they don't, with what we do to them. But even if you are right with that, domesticated animals shouldn't even be the way they are. We've forced them to do what we want them to do, yet another act of humans' self-importance. They only possibly respect us because we've forced that into them.

Hilarious, really hilarious the simplistic and shallow ideas you have.

You really think you can keep 9 billion people on this planet fed without farming and depending on foraging / hunting wild animals?

You are grossly misinformed about hunting and farming, particularly how long animals in hunted regions live and how sustainable hunting is if it is used for anything but supplement to overall food source.

Locusts' lack of comprehension is no excuse to let them destroy pivotal food crops.

Thanks for you're views but you are wholly failing to convince me of anything, it just seems like you are very very confused.

 

[psyks]

Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

But scores of small animals doesnt because we must have those lentis, grains and soy? I would still like to know exactly how the ethics in this works.

Wow man, so you're equating unintentionally running over small animals with a combine harvester and keeping cows in cages or growing veal or grinding up chicks into feed? I know you probably pride yourself in being able to isolate your emotions where you can compare harvesting a plant and torturing a cow, but have a heart. Can you really not make that distinction?

 

[JasonKaotic]

Thanks for you're views but you are wholly failing to convince me of anything

When did I ever say I'm trying to convince you of anything? You started the argument. Eat meat 'til you bloat and die for all I care, I'm just defending my own beliefs.

 

[Treblaine]

I wouldn't feel any pain if you cut off my head either. It's still not cool. Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

Yeah, those chickens could have contributed to society, such rich lives to live. They had a chance to university, train as an art restorer and settle down with a woman and share jokes and regal stories with their other farm animal friends.(sarc)

Wait no, they'd peck at the ground all day getting fat on seeds we grew for them!

Chickens are bred for eggs and when they can't lay eggs any more, what then? Just let them grow old? Let them starve to death? Killing them would be humane and less wasteful but then what? Throw their delicious chicken meat into a pond and let it rot?

People =/= chickens

I know Disney have done an amazing job of inserting the idea that all animals are real thinking people if only they could somehow communicate with us, they really aren't.

Don't be like the psychopath from The Hunted who justifies murdering dozens of people because "thousands of battery chickens are killed every day".

 

[Treblaine]

Thanks for you're views but you are wholly failing to convince me of anything

When did I ever say I'm trying to convince you of anything? You started the argument. Eat meat 'til you bloat and die for all I care, I'm just defending my own beliefs.

Well you're not doing a good job of defending your beliefs either, it seems utterly illogical and ethically muddled.

 

[JasonKaotic]

Well you're not doing a good job of defending your beliefs either, it seems utterly illogical and ethically muddled.

Then why are you bothering to argue with me? I honestly have better things to do than argue over beliefs on a forum. If you're as intelligent and clever as you're trying to make out to be then so do you.

 

[Heppo]

I became a veggie because I didn't like meat. Only for a few years until I moved out to go to uni.

I lived on a beef farm and have no problem with the meat industry.

I stopped being a veggie because I started doing a lot of exercise and hated relying on supplements so much. It was hard restarting again.

I now consider myself a picky bugger! I'll eat anything pretty much untill it comes things like really fatty bacon, steaks and meat with bones. Its more about how it comes than what it is for me.

 

[Treblaine]

Wow man, so you're equating unintentionally running over small animals with a combine harvester and keeping cows in cages or growing veal or grinding up chicks into feed?

Whoa "unintentionally"?

What do you think pest control entails, asking the hoards of pests to politely not eat all your crops. Perhaps scaring them away but never deliberately hurting them? No, it means DELIBERATELY KILLING THEM!

Far more deaths than with grass reared livestock. Slow deaths from poisoning, wounding by gunshot, and starvation as their habitat is ovetaken. Any idea the effect farming has had on wildlife populations?

Cows are NOT get tortured to get meat. Do not lie. Any farmer who tortures a cow is a fool, it reduces the quality and yield of milk and meat, one keeps them comfortable, healthy and well fed if you have a grain of sense.

Some people abuse animals, but that is criminal. Just like some people abuse people. It's crazy talk to say cows need to be liberated, they are utterly dependant on people to care for them.

 

[claymoreguy18]

I suppose they simply don't like the taste of it. Or maybe they have animal friends and see it as murder. Doesn't matter really, just means more meat for me.

 

[Ampersand]

I wouldn't feel any pain if you cut off my head either. It's still not cool. Regardless of whether you think their experiences are equal to yours they still deserve to continue living just as much.

Yeah, those chickens could have contributed to society, such rich lives to live. They had a chance to university, train as an art restorer and settle down with a woman and share jokes and regal stories with their other farm animal friends.(sarc)

Wait no, they'd peck at the ground all day getting fat on seeds we grew for them!

Chickens are bred for eggs and when they can't lay eggs any more, what then? Just let them grow old? Let them starve to death? Killing them would be humane and less wasteful but then what? Throw their delicious chicken meat into a pond and let it rot?

People =/= chickens

I know Disney have done an amazing job of inserting the idea that all animals are real thinking people if only they could somehow communicate with us, they really aren't.

Don't be like the psychopath from The Hunted who justifies murdering dozens of people because "thousands of battery chickens are killed every day".

If someone thought they where to me what I was to a chicken I hardly think they'd be aloud to kill and eat me. Bottom line, I'm an animal and I don't want to be killed, hence it's not ok for me to kill other animals.

 

[Treblaine]

Well you're not doing a good job of defending your beliefs either, it seems utterly illogical and ethically muddled.

Then why are you bothering to argue with me? I honestly have better things to do than argue over beliefs on a forum. If you're as intelligent and clever as you're trying to make out to be then so do you.

Because as much as I know how futile it would be I don't want you to post such nonsense and think it is sensible simply because no one challenges it.

I've told you it's nonsense, maybe if enough people tell you that you'll stop to consider how unrealistic your ideals are.

Eventually you'll come around, we all go through stages like this where we seem to have "it all figured out" when really we're just deluding ourself.