Video Games, Murder Simulators and Controversy

[Andy of Comix Inc]

Games are always going to have some kind of combat, because a story without tension has no resolve, and the most effective way to have tension is to have life-or-death conflict, and the best way to have life-or-death conflict resolve itself is to have fights. Gunfights, swordfights, fistfights. Also it's probably the only real life-or-death situation that could work itself into flowing and visceral game design.

Then again there is, say, Civilization-esque games, but you don't see them getting away with having no conflict to be resolved. Even the most basic of children's games have some kind of bad guy, that more often than not gets beaten up to some degree.

Edit: I'm not implying every game needs conflict and resolve, or that every game needs violence. Some truly astonishing games have created tension internally, or created the illusion of tension, without using violence at all - and some games don't even have tension at all, just a chilly little playground with no consequences. But the first ten games that enter your head will have some kind of tension, be it a puzzle or a goal, and a resolve - and many of them will up the stakes by having player death be a side-effect of failure; and thus, many will have you be able to overcome that death by fighting whatever or whoever is causing that death. Something will do something resembling dying.

 

[harvz]

i think the "murder simulator" idea is wrong.

murder is when you are doing it against the law, so that would reduce the amount of games to a few that are based solely around murder to advance yourself.

certain games would leave a debate about it, lets look at the assassins creed saga.
-killing against the law
-using it to advance

this would point to a murder simulator, except that the targets (who are the only ones you need to kill) are attempting mass murder (atleast in no. 1).
this makes it a philosophical debate, "is it really murder to kill seven to save seven million?", "is it right to stop them, death being the only way, to save humanity from enslavement?", etc.

almost every game which falls under "murder simulator", by the idiots who use the phrase without quotes and in open conversation, can be put to a philosophical debate on the issue.

 

[TiefBlau]

All you need to ask yourself is 'would you rather me murder someone or release my frustration in a simulator?'

But just how effective a catharsis is video gaming to begin with?

I don't play video games to take my anger out on someone or something. In fact, I think it's those kinds of people that we should be worried about. If you're angry, you have at it with a punching bag or get yourself to some ice cream or something else incredibly gratifying. You find things you can physically exert yourself in, and that's great catharsis. Video games are not. They're virtual and they play largely on your imagination, which, if you're feeling pretty angry, is already pretty violent to begin with.

The purpose of catharsis is to take out all your anger. All you're really doing when you play video games is imagining you're taking out all your anger, which really just stokes the flames.

I'm not saying I'm against violent video games, or even that I necessarily care about either side. But the whole "catharsis" argument really isn't right.

 

[Savagezion]

I'm sure that if we asked around, we'd find heaps of gamers who'd attempted to double-jump when they were kids. That doesn't mean video games are evil, it means that kids are easily deceived. Whole different story.

I've yet to encounter a child who was dumb enough to think they could double jump.

How do the anti-video game arguments make sense? There are no credible statistics to support their arguments, and there is to support the other side, therefore their argument is not sensible.

Well, you haven't met any kids that have admitted they thought there might be something to it. When I was little (Atari) I loved Superman and I was sure as shit it was that cape that made him fly. I wasn't a physics specialist at that age. Needless to say I did try it out and got lucky and only sprained my ankle. When asked why I did it I said the typical kid response, "I don't know". I wasn't about to tell my mom I was testing a theory I had on capes and flight.

There are credible studies against video games and their effects on people. Movies have an effect, TV, comic books, etc. and all other forms of media. One difference is that video games do help nurture one's ability to solve problems. One could also say comics help your reading skills, and TV/moviess can help teach social skills and mannerisms to a degree. (Maybe with L.A. Noire video games might be able to start stepping into that one but right now we aren't even close.)

The problem with all of these studies is that the variable (person being studied) differs from person to person. This in no way invalidates the entire study but just means it isn't pinpoint accurate as to what these effects are. It is pretty apparent at this point and logical after the countless studies that SOME effects are had. Watching someone get their head blown off in a movie/game/TV show will have an effect on a child who doesn't naturally think about mortality and the darker aspects to mankind. This stuff scares them and stays with them for a long time until they adjust mentally to it which is where becoming desensitized comes in.

Until you actually cite at least one of these sources, I'm skeptical to really believe any of that.

Really? You can't just see the picture I painted using simple logic? Simply being around kids when they first start seeing violence for the first time and that explanation should be able to paint it pretty clear. They don't automatically accept it. They stare, and then bombard the shit out of you with random questions about it that pop in their head. Usually, you can tell it is out of worry, morbid curiosity, or they just don't "get it". But if you can't get it from that, here:

http://www.newscientist.com/special/13-more-things

 

[Savagezion]

The fact that people won't even acknowledge the validity of the argument only shows the ignorance that lies on both sides. It isn't like they are ever going to take video games away. The levels of influence are too unpredictable for them to try to us these studies as some bargaining chip for legislation. It seems the gamer response to these studies are denial and then to plug their ears and go "La-la-la-la-la". Which is just as bad as Fox News only on the opposite side of the spectrum.

 

[matell]

give it 10 more years, maybe 15, and people will find something else to bash (like cybernetic prosthetics) and games will become accepted

 

[Shameless]

Do you know what Murder is ? is killing someone innocent, in 90% of games you either in war or defending yourself and that is not murder.

Also there are very few games that has us killing innocent people like God of war but in God of War it's different because the protagonist is an anti hero and redemption is one of the themes of the game plus games has the freedom of speech, we have the right to delve into themes of killing and innocence just like every other medium.

Seriously, did any if you see The Godfather and said that is a tutorial for murder ? of course none said that, and it's one of the most critically acclaimed movies of all time.

 

[Biosophilogical]

Well, the experts might have something onto their theories...because I did get a sudden urge to rape someone after playing Bulletstorm.
Satire.

And playing FFX made me want to go out and disprove religion!Really? Satire? Me too! What FFX really made me want to do was replay it while constantly wishing I could forget it so that the plot developments (summons, twists, etc) would be new again.

 

[Mr Orange]

Young children aren't supposed to watch/play and of the things you listed, mate.

 

[Sarge034]

Now that you mention it... I did have the urge to go rape some people after playing Bulletstorm and shoot some people after playing a FPS and to kill myself after reading what's his nuts latest complaint to Valve.
I AM BEING OVERLY SARCASTIC AND DO NOT PROMOTE ANY OF THESE ACTIONS.

I think this whole argument comes down to the fact that people don't want to blame people for their actions. Video games cause violance, guns kill people, and where we grow up defines how we will act. No, it is an unstable person who will become violent. No, it is the person who pulled the trigger who killed that person. No, it is how we choose to act that defines us.

I use this when people use the "guns kill people" line, but it can apply here too if we think about it more generally.

If guns kill people, pencils misspell words.
Look at the pictures one thing is the same. Care to guess what it is?

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[ramboondiea]

i have to disagree with you on the desensitisation part, and thats purely because i have to.
its a questionable theory with flimsy support (not just in regards in gaming, but all other forms of media) there is just as much support for opposing theories, but other then that part, your argument is relatively logical,

 

[Sarge034]

I just thought of another point after reading the posts above mine. Most of you are turning this into an "affect on children" disscusion. So why then PARENTS, are you letting your kids play these games if you have a problem with the influence they have on your child(ren)? It is not MY fault if you make an uniformed decision.

 

[Zaik]

I'm sure that if we asked around, we'd find heaps of gamers who'd attempted to double-jump when they were kids. That doesn't mean video games are evil, it means that kids are easily deceived. Whole different story.

I've yet to encounter a child who was dumb enough to think they could double jump.

How do the anti-video game arguments make sense? There are no credible statistics to support their arguments, and there is to support the other side, therefore their argument is not sensible.

They're trying to take the global warming approach and just keep making the same claims with a lot of scaremongering over and over until people get tired of or find themselves unable to disagree with them anymore due to bias in their own community.

 

[Zhukov]

Though, really war is just as natural as goats butting heads...

Is murder any less natural then war?

What's the difference between "war" and "organised murder on a large scale"?

 

[Ninjat_126]

Young children aren't supposed to watch/play and of the things you listed, mate.

They still do though. But that's another discussion.


Ok, maybe murder simulators aren't the right description. Editing OP.

 

[mikev7.0]

The idea of Murder Simulator is a misnomer because it does not address the whole. It's intentionally ignoring everything else in order to sensationalize one part.

When you ignore the context around an idea it can be redefined in a negative way and used as a weapon.

Recontextualization allows you to say anything about anything.

Also, video games don't desensitize people to violence, they desensitize people to virtual or simulated violence.

It's not an issue of taking them and showing them as wrong. When you do that you concede that there points are in some way valid and we, as a community, need to instead point out that the arguments are bullshit and not let them have that ground to start with.

Wow. Thanks, I think you made my real point for me. The Anti Video Game Activists aren't giving the full picture.


Look at the Mass Effect sex scene controversy. They didn't mention how brief the scenes were, or how justified in the story/characterisation, or any other important details. They left as many facts out as they could, then they just made up random crap to stir up more controversy.

I've seen videos of No Russian, and (so far) I haven't decided to shoot up an airport full of unarmed civilians.

These are good points but I think (now that I have watched the recent debate) that what we really need are studies that are more rigorous than what we now have and that are accepted by all parties as at least empirically proven data. I mean the man from Common Sense sounded to me like he had a point when he asked that Pediatricians please not be referred to as "Junk Science." Then again what Pediatricians conducted that study? Did they somehow have a dog in the race so to speak? It doesn't take much to get a PHD to side against video games (hell, it doesn't even take much to get Bill Maher to do it and he's usually very fact based)and many would do it without even seeing how they were being biased due to their own subconscious bias. How were the tests done?

Also that debate made the best point of all. We need to be able to debate a definition of what is and isn't acceptable that all sides respect as well. This certainly is not like the Ginsberg case and "You'll know it when you see it." isn't something any of us should accept in the 21st century.

I am also confident (and I'd like to know where the community stands on this) that if we actually knew our hobby was really hurting someone we would change it in a heartbeat.

 

[RowdyRodimus]

This might be off topic but it does pertain in that it is about violence in media and reactions to it.

I really don't have a problem if people hate games because they are violent or movies for sex or any combination of media and their boogeymen. As long as they are consistent about it and not hypocritical. What I mean is if a game is violent and they object to it and a movie comes out that is violent and they rally against both of them, then fine, they are just speaking their mind. But if the same thing happens and they give the movie or game a pass and call for the banning or censoring of the other, then I have a problem with it.

Case in point, not too long after Million Dollar Baby came out, Clint Eastwood came out complaining about violence in different forms of media. Yes, here was the man who made millions as the star of Dirty Harry movies where he killed countless numbers of people, not counting his western days, saying violence is bad in movies (not sure if he mentioned Video games). His hypocritical stance on it caused me to lose any respect I had for him and since then I will go out of my way not to see anything involving him.

That's the big problem we face in this day and age. We have so many people saying "It's bad when X does it, but when I do it it's ok". It's a bunch of phonies just wanting to impose their own morality on everyone (sort of like Hardcore Religious folks want everyone to worship what they do and Hardcore Atheists wanting everyone to believe what they do. If everyone just lived and let live, things would be so much easier for everyone.)

 

[FalloutJack]

Eh, how do I put this...? No.

Flipping hell, how many times have I said it by now? The bottom line is the dollar, not to make people murder other people. Game company pushes out game, people buy game. End of story. There IS no real controversy here unless the developers are essentially devious villains with long mustaches and bold plans to brainwash the world. Without intent, there is no cause. The only reason anybody ever tried to kill anyone where you might suspect a video game at fault was entirely down to the mind of the PERSON. The devil didn't make you do it and neither did the entertainment medium.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

Finally someone admits that games desensitize people to violence. I mean, so do movies and (to an extent) books, but the point still stands.