View from the Road: The Lesson of Final Fantasy XIII

[Girl With One Eye]

In my opinion, square were trying to appeal to the mass market and in doing so lost all of the elements which typically gave final fantasy games their uniqueness. An open world with towns and people to talk to was one of the best features and it really made you feel a part of the world, rather than a part of a very long corridor. Battles took far too long to beat which can become annoying very quickly. I didn't like the fact that you only control the party leader, it kind of defied the point of having a party and being in control. The plot to me was very over complicated and lacked depth, the characters had no relatable characteristics and nothing made me like them (Vanilles constant orgasms were annoying not arousing). Even the summons were a let down, considering each summon was assigned to a specific person, of which you can only control one, so if you want a different summon you have to change party leader. Now I usually enjoy seeing the different summons and attacks, but the auto-attack feature managed to ruin this aswell.

Admittedly the game looks beautiful, and it is possible to play and enjoy this game. However, I'm such a final fantasy fangirl I would have beaten it no matter what. I just feel that the flaws in this game ruin any chance of replayability.

 

[God's Clown]

FF13 is actually kind of lame to me. I hate the combat system. I play a game for story, not difficulty. With FF13 you have difficulty, no difficulty settings, nothing, just throwing hard trash at you whenever they feel like it. The combat system makes it play more like a strategy RPG or something then what I'd like.

All in all, I like the characters to an extent(hope can go die,) the story is interesting, but outside of that it just annoys me.

 

[Danpascooch]

I kept wondering, why was the game so linear? Until I saw the article with the rediculous statement that: "A new FF7 would take 40 years to make". Assuming that is true, and that Square plans to release a new Final Fantasy every 5 years at the longest, that means that because of their graphical standards, they will never make a game with even ONE EIGHTH! of the content of FF7 ever again. (and that's not considering the fact that all of the groundwork for FFVII is completed, and balanced appropriately) I for one am not alright with that, JRPG's have been nearly killed by new Western RPGs, and if they try to cut the content down by 90% for the sake of graphics, they're screwed.

Yeah it all came together for me once i read that article as well. Another thing i noticed was that after a while i started getting "tunnel vision" and was paying no attention at all to the background graphics, i was just trying to get to the end of the tunnel. Which pretty much made all their effort making the graphics useless.

It actually made me sit back think that i would have MUCH preferred less graphics for more open spaces.

No shit, the days where high graphics cutscenes were a major selling point ended with the Playstation One.

Cutscenes are commonplace now, if there was ever a time to NOT start cutting gameplay and exploration for graphics, it'd be now

 

[Arcane Azmadi]

That's a brilliant observation about tuning the difficulty. In the vast majority of RPGs it's close to impossible to lose in a common enemy encounter- instead the general idea is that the multiple battles with enemies as you force your way through a dungeon instead serve to wear your characters down, making them run low on MP and healing items. This is actually why a lot of these dungeons have full party heal points next to the save point just before the dungeon boss (I love the TV Tropes link, EVERYONE should be on that site). FFXIII, by always healing you to full enabled the game to have tougher encounters because you don't have to worry about whether winning the battle will leave the party too weak to take on the next one- they don't have to worry about conservation as much.

Mind you, I'm still not interested in FFXIII as a whole though.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

You forgot to mention the deep history and realistic political plot populated by well motivated villains who had good reasons for what they were doing and didn't just fall into generic JRPG villain tropes like trying to destroy the world because of mommy/daddy issues.

Woah, you must have played a different FF XII than I did, those villains were awful. I don't even remember their back stories or motivations at all.

Vayne Solidor is probably the most well written of all the Final Fantasy villains as far as I'm concerned, he's attempting to free the world from the influence of the gods and protect his younger brother from the schemes of the senate. He does this through extremely ruthless and awful means, basically by starting wars, killing his own father etc. He's ruthless and obsessed with power but he honestly beleaves he's doing the right thing for the world and his brother. Considerably deeper than the standard "I WANT TO DESTROY THE WORLD!" that you get from FF villains.

I think he gets a bad rap because he isn't as "showy" or as "fan-girl/boy" wanky as Sephiroth, Seifer or other Final Fantasy Characters.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

On the other hand, you don't want to go all Oblivion on us, either. If you're not the Min/Maxing sort, and not a Mage, even trash mobs can become a series of grueling slogs. You can begin every fight in top condition, but they take too long, and between fights you'll need to sleep or chug potions, repair your equipment, recharge your enchanted items, and tediously manage the deluge of marketable items you rely on for early cash. Mods really improve all this. You need to find balance to achieve optimal pacing, and something that works well in one game may not in another with very different factors influencing the pace of the game.

[Note: I love T.E.S. and I don't care how powerful your Oblivion character is. Mine's better anyway.]

 

[VGFreak1225]

The World Ends With You did this as well. Instead of giving you traditional healing items to use during battles and after them, your HP was refilled in between battles. The difference was that in order to get a higher drop rate, you had to do multiple battles in a row without resetting your HP, and healing items took the form of pins which used up space that could have held an attack pin. It actually used the high risk/high reward system pretty well.

 

[burningdragoon]

I kept wondering, why was the game so linear? Until I saw the article with the rediculous statement that: "A new FF7 would take 40 years to make". Assuming that is true, and that Square plans to release a new Final Fantasy every 5 years at the longest, that means that because of their graphical standards, they will never make a game with even ONE EIGHTH! of the content of FF7 ever again. (and that's not considering the fact that all of the groundwork for FFVII is completed, and balanced appropriately) I for one am not alright with that, JRPG's have been nearly killed by new Western RPGs, and if they try to cut the content down by 90% for the sake of graphics, they're screwed.

Yeah it all came together for me once i read that article as well. Another thing i noticed was that after a while i started getting "tunnel vision" and was paying no attention at all to the background graphics, i was just trying to get to the end of the tunnel. Which pretty much made all their effort making the graphics useless.

It actually made me sit back think that i would have MUCH preferred less graphics for more open spaces.

I agree. And by the time the world opened up for some exploration, I no longer cared enough to do so.
A lot of people apparently feel like graphics are super important. A conversation with one of my friends during some random cutscene:
Him: It's so pretty.
Me: It's just grass.
Him: But it's pretty grass.
Me: ...but it's just grass.

I still would say I liked it though... I guess.

 

[RobfromtheGulag]

Via in-game movies I gathered that our protagonists were weaker than most (Lightning got dropped in not 1 but 2 cgs I think?); the fighting was largely the same. Perhaps being able to solo-character even the hardest bosses in the game [FF7] was overkill, but it gave me a warm fuzzy feeling that having my entire team die to a turtle did not.

 

[Therumancer]

I am one of those who disagrees with the Final Fantasy XIII way of doing things, because honestly it defeats the entire purpose of playing an RPG and making your own strategies and such. For example the bit about being "grotesqely overpowered in one way, and underpowered in another" is part of what made developing characters fun, and developing your own strategies. In Final Fantasy XIII having everything availible all the time pretty much means that there wasn't much personalization involved on the part of the players, and the developers pretty much could plan encounters that forced the player to do specific things. In an RPG I generally don't mind going back to have to level up a bit in an area or two if I find myself lacking and unable to adapt what I have to the problem at hand.

What's more it takes the tooth off "dungeons" to some extent. Half the point of an RPG is when your going someplace nasty, to make sure your as stocked up and prepared for it as possible. What's more being able to plan ahead, stockpile your consumables, and similar things is what makes skill (and preserverance) something of a factor.

While annoying part of the satisfaction of say finishing a section of an Atlus game is knowing that you could very much have been saying "oh Sh@t" if you blow all your resources too early. Hording those precious, precious, SP restoring items being something coming to mind. "Do I suffer through this boss without them because a meaner one might be just down the hall?".

My general attitude is that "Final Fantasy" especially now by the XIIIth installment is not supposed to be an "introductory level" RPG for casual players or those new to the genere, and really I think that's the level it was "reduced" to. Basically if you need this kind of (relative) hand holding, you shouldn't be playing this series, and instead looking to other titles like say "Tales Of Heroes" (I think that's the title) for the PSP or whatever. Then once you get used to the conventions, that's when you whip out other series.

What's more I feel "Final Fantasy" is middle of the road, or should be. It's a game where trash should be trash, but the bosses, especially optional ones, should be nasty unless your well prepare and overleveled (which I almost always am). For those who want something nastier, well that's what "Shin Megami Tensei" is for, that's when you dread that chance that the next group of enemies will win initiative, cast "Mudo" and get lucky.

 

[pneuma08]

Mr. Funk, you've touched upon a game design conflict that's been raging about for a while now; the last I've heard it brought up was when Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition came out with its "healing surges" that can be used by characters of any class to heal between fights. Some cried, "it makes the game too easy" with the response being, "but it makes individual battles tougher" - similar, no? You can even compare the resource managements of Dragon Age vs Baldur's Gate to see similar trends.

The reality is both design philosophies try to accomplish different objectives; the "old school" of "wearing the player down" is more about long-term strategy while "new school" of "refresh after battle" is all about tactical decisions in battle. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. "Old school" is more about resource management and preparedness, and the joy to be found in this is survival, economic use of resources, and picking your battles, whereas the "new school" does indeed result in tougher normal battles, you're not punished by making poor decisions hours ago, and you are never completely screwed (that is, you're never futilely limping back to civilization after you've exhausted all your resources; if you've made it through on your own power, you can make it back because your power has not diminished).

The epitome of this "old school" philosophy are games like roguelikes (Rogue itself, Nethack, and even a few modern games like Shien the Wanderer and Izuna; even Pokemon Mystery Dungeons are roguelikes with kiddy gloves on) as well as dungeon-delving games like Etrian Odyssey.

 

[FloodOne]

You forgot to mention the deep history and realistic political plot populated by well motivated villains who had good reasons for what they were doing and didn't just fall into generic JRPG villain tropes like trying to destroy the world because of mommy/daddy issues.

Woah, you must have played a different FF XII than I did, those villains were awful. I don't even remember their back stories or motivations at all.

Vayne Solidor is probably the most well written of all the Final Fantasy villains as far as I'm concerned, he's attempting to free the world from the influence of the gods and protect his younger brother from the schemes of the senate. He does this through extremely ruthless and awful means, basically by starting wars, killing his own father etc. He's ruthless and obsessed with power but he honestly beleaves he's doing the right thing for the world and his brother. Considerably deeper than the standard "I WANT TO DESTROY THE WORLD!" that you get from FF villains.

I think he gets a bad rap because he isn't as "showy" or as "fan-girl/boy" wanky as Sephiroth, Seifer or other Final Fantasy Characters.

I think he gets a bad rap because he has the same motivations as every JRPG, but with a dry personality.

Kefka murdered the emperor and destroyed the world, but he did it with style.

Vayne just had that same look on his face, and he had no noteworthy moments in the entire game.

Minus that last boss fight, even I'll admit that was suitably epic.

 

[FloodOne]

I am one of those who disagrees with the Final Fantasy XIII way of doing things, because honestly it defeats the entire purpose of playing an RPG and making your own strategies and such. For example the bit about being "grotesqely overpowered in one way, and underpowered in another" is part of what made developing characters fun, and developing your own strategies. In Final Fantasy XIII having everything availible all the time pretty much means that there wasn't much personalization involved on the part of the players, and the developers pretty much could plan encounters that forced the player to do specific things. In an RPG I generally don't mind going back to have to level up a bit in an area or two if I find myself lacking and unable to adapt what I have to the problem at hand.

What's more it takes the tooth off "dungeons" to some extent. Half the point of an RPG is when your going someplace nasty, to make sure your as stocked up and prepared for it as possible. What's more being able to plan ahead, stockpile your consumables, and similar things is what makes skill (and preserverance) something of a factor.

While annoying part of the satisfaction of say finishing a section of an Atlus game is knowing that you could very much have been saying "oh Sh@t" if you blow all your resources too early. Hording those precious, precious, SP restoring items being something coming to mind. "Do I suffer through this boss without them because a meaner one might be just down the hall?".

My general attitude is that "Final Fantasy" especially now by the XIIIth installment is not supposed to be an "introductory level" RPG for casual players or those new to the genere, and really I think that's the level it was "reduced" to. Basically if you need this kind of (relative) hand holding, you shouldn't be playing this series, and instead looking to other titles like say "Tales Of Heroes" (I think that's the title) for the PSP or whatever. Then once you get used to the conventions, that's when you whip out other series.

What's more I feel "Final Fantasy" is middle of the road, or should be. It's a game where trash should be trash, but the bosses, especially optional ones, should be nasty unless your well prepare and overleveled (which I almost always am). For those who want something nastier, well that's what "Shin Megami Tensei" is for, that's when you dread that chance that the next group of enemies will win initiative, cast "Mudo" and get lucky.

Who says that a game has to be what you think it should be? I support developers bringing something new and fresh to every iteration of their franchises, even if the results are mixed. It keeps the series from feeling like endless retreads, similar to Dragon Warrior or anything by Bethesda.

EDIT- Whoops, sorry for the double post.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

I think he gets a bad rap because he has the same motivations as every JRPG, but with a dry personality.

Kefka murdered the emperor and destroyed the world, but he did it with style.

Vayne just had that same look on his face, and he had no noteworthy moments in the entire game.

Minus that last boss fight, even I'll admit that was suitably epic.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but Kefka is pretty good in that "Complete Monster" sense.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

In summary: It took Squaresoft over 20 years of making their games to realize something that Blizzard realized within 5 years of making the same style of games. Just goes to show you why people stand by Blizzard despite constant delays. Blizzard may have released, in the past 20 years, the same number of titles that most other developers will push-out in a matter of a couple of years, yet somehow Blizzard has managed to get more quality out of those fewer titles.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

*Snip*

I agree with that entirely. Both styles have their pros and cons, and it's something a developer needs to decide upon early-on so they can plan accordingly. With the "survival" style of RPGing, you need to make potions somewhat affordable, where with the "refresh" style potions can cost more since you're less likely to need them (after-all, between battles is when your characters binged on potions the most).

Personally, I prefer the survival system. Some of my fonder memories of the earlier Final Fantasy titles were back in the 2D days. I'd march into a dungeon with what I felt was enough to survive the trip. Upon getting to the end, battered and bruised, I would finally make it to that glorious save point where I got to effectively reset my characters for the boss fight. After a rigorous fight with the boss, I would get to return to the city to lick my wounds, restock my potions, and revel in the feeling of being stronger now than I was when I entered the dungeon.

People can argue that refreshing health and mana after every fight allows for individual fights to be harder all they want, and they are technically right. The only problem though is that it doesn't fix the issue of fights becoming monotonous. If anything, it worsens the problem. In Final Fantasy 6, for example, when I fight a common enemy, I can do whatever the hell I want to him. I can throw the kitchen sink at him to laugh at how I decimated this 2,000 HP critter with my 9999 damage spell, I can just hold the A-button down to have all my characters attack, I can use a spell that I like the effects of... the world is my oyster, and that enemy is my *****.

When the battle is tuned a specific way though, you just run the motions. Is the fight harder? Well... yes and no. Sure it's "harder" in that I have to use a specific tactic, but then you have the pseudo-difficulty issue where if I use the right strategy the fight is easy. So if the fight is going to be easy in either system, shouldn't it be easy in the way that I get to have a little more fun with? If you play through FF6 spam-casting Ultima on everything, that's because it's your choice. If I have to play through FF13 spam-casting Ultima on everything though, it's going to be more by force because that's the tactic that works.

 

[Therumancer]

Who says that a game has to be what you think it should be? I support developers bringing something new and fresh to every iteration of their franchises, even if the results are mixed. It keeps the series from feeling like endless retreads, similar to Dragon Warrior or anything by Bethesda.

EDIT- Whoops, sorry for the double post.

It's a matter of common sense. The entire point of having a series is the continuation of a successful formula and concept. Final Fantasy has always been about producing intermediate level RPGs, using a set of general concepts like the -ra, raga, etc... spell system.

Once you start messing with something too much it ceases to be the same series. You alter something too much and it loses it's identity. I'm all for them doing something new, but they shouldn't be attaching an existing label to it. If Squeenix wants to do introductory level RPGs that mess with the formula to this extent, more power to them, but don't sell it as a Final Fantasy game. The only reason for doing that is the marketing power of the name.

It's sort of like putting vanilla wafers into a package of chocolate wafers, and then trying to tell people that they are chocolate wafers because you put the "chocolate" name on them.

Final Fantasy comes with a certain set of expectations, especially when it comes to the general complexity level.

Truthfully, if they really felt they needed to use the Final Fantasy name they probably should have done this as another spin-off title, rather than numbering it as part of the main series.

 

[Fearzone]

I hope FFXIII does **not** become a trend. Sure, the paradigm system had potential but...

The "game" in an RPG is figuring out the system to overcome the challenges the game throws at you. If you have figured out the system well the mobs should not be particularly challenging and you have the luxury of breezing your way through. Conversely, if you don't spend a lot of time picking the right gear and maximizing your talents to suit your class and style of play, it's probably going to be an uphill battle with you feeling chronically underpowered the whole way.

FFXIII narrowed down the whole experience into a little hermetically sealed package that really constricted the range of gameplay options. There wasn't much you could do with gear, nor was there much actual choice when it came to leveling your abilities. If you wanted to level grind, which I did on one occasion, it was just running back and forth along the same hallway.

Pretty much, your Final Fantasy XIII experience was about the same as mine, which is unacceptable for an RPG. By contrast, no two of my World of Warcraft play throughs have been remotely alike.

Deep down I felt FFXIII didn't really want to bother with role playing aspects but had a few RPG elements there because it is a Final Fantasy game so felt they needed to be there. They didn't really fit in to the intensely linear nature of the game IMHO.

 

[MeTheMe]

Actually, "The World Ends With You" did the same thing, healing you after each battle. There could be numerous fights in each battle, but you were healed once you reached the map again.

I haven't played FFXIII, but the idea to heal after battle worked well in TWEWY. Of course, if you're going to make every battle a challenge, you've also got to balance out how many battles there's going to be. TWEWY let you decide which random battles to do by letting you intiate them. I think that's the real problem with it, balancing out how well everything works together.