View from the Road: The Lesson of Final Fantasy XIII

omegawyrm

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Shamus: I greatly agree with you that healing after every fight was a great idea and let most every trash battle be exciting and fun, but I don't know if I'd want to see that as a standard for all RPGs. Part of what makes Final Fantasy so great to me is how radically different each game is, not that stuff like Dragon Quest isn't fun or anything, but taking mechanics from other games doesn't work all the time. Then again, Dragon Age took the tactics system from FFXII and that turned out OK, so maybe there's nothing to worry about?

Most everyone else: Man, Final Fantasy XIII sure was a fun game! You know what else was fun? Final Fantasy XII, and X, and IX - I, and Tactics, and Tactics Advance, and Chrystal Chronicles, and Dissidia. I sure wish I could be as discriminating and cool as you other guys in this thread, but I guess I'm just cursed to having fun playing video games forever. Woe is me. *sob*
 

Dexiro

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I still don't mind the linearity, it was scripted but i still felt like i was exploring and it was still really fun!

I have to admit though it would have been soo much better with just a little more non-linearity. On-rails is good but it's so much more rewarding when you carve your own path.
 

Sniper Team 4

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I liked this game. My biggest complaint is the ending, or rather lack of it. There were a few plot issues that bothered me (I wanted to kill the chick that stole Sazh's kid, not watch someone else do it), and like others, it felt too contained and linear at points.

I am currently trying to get all the trophies, and I must admit that now it is feeling like a FF game. Some of these hunts are hard (I lucked out on Neo-Ochu, as Vanille's Death worked on the second try. Heh heh), and trying to get a 5-star rating is harder. Fast-paced changing of the roles really puts me on the edge of my seat. I've killed every hunt now, but I must admit that I'm wondering how to get 5 stars on some of the harder ones. The only thing I would change about the battle system would be let me change which character I control during the fight in the fight itself, not inbetween them.
 

superspartan004

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I just wish Square would return combat to the tradtional ATB battles from IV - IX, it worked perfectly and I never saw the reason to change it, XIII's combat was good, but it lacked limit breaks, my favorite part of FF comabt
 

Plinglebob

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Nov 11, 2008
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Personally, I agree with Mr Funk. My problem in RPGs is I'm a massive horder because I'm scared to use an item just incase I end up needing it later in the dungeon which often meant my characters ended up dying because I didn't use a potion. Also, as someone who enjoys the grind in JRPGs, levelling became fun again because rather then just running in cirlces and pressing A to kill trash quickly, it was a case of figuring out whats the best tactic to use (AoE or single target, quick buff/debuff at the beginning or just go for damage). Compared to FFXII where I managed to level up 5 times without even watching the TV it was brilliant.

Edit: The only complaint I have about the combat system is that you're limited to controlling 1 character. This was mainly due to the fact you couldn't tweak the AI. While I don't like re-buying games, if they ever released another version where they tweaked the battle system so you could hae the option of controlling all 3 members of your party, I'd buy it.
 

LordWalter

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Fallen-Angel Risen-Demon said:
Bring the FFX combat back!
It was ace!
Correct. Funk, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you on this. Auto-Heal is idiotic. I don't want to play a boss battle every ten minutes. Furthermore, the main problem with FFXIII is

Lvl 64 Klutz said:
Haha, Yes. Some of those monsters in the final dungeon of FFXIII were actually harder for me than the final boss itself. The problem I had with the game's battle system, though, was the fact that 9 times out of 10, the most efficient attack input method was "Auto Attack" so I usually felt like I wasn't actually controlling anything apart from the occasional Paradigm Shift.
It's nonsense. Go back to Turn Based Combat and don't change: it works flawlessly the way it is.
 

fanklok

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Jul 17, 2009
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Wait Funk you thought it was hard? I guess that's kinda true till Sazh learns cold blood and turns into a death machine.

And I hate you, you troping bastard.
 

Ashendarei

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interesting. I am curious how this will affect future FF titles (since we all know that this one isn't the "Final" fantesy)
 

Carnagath

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PedroSteckecilo said:
Carnagath said:
Yeah, FFXII was terrible. After all, it only had the most massive, open, populated and varied world to ever appear in a JRPG, did away with the combat transition cutscenes that everyone outside of Japan loathes, and had the deepest customizable party AI system ever developed, which allowed for some fiendishly clever boss tactics (such as Omega Mk.12), a system that Bioware shanelessly copy pasted into Dragon Age but completely failed to utilize. Oh well...opinions, right?
You forgot to mention the deep history and realistic political plot populated by well motivated villains who had good reasons for what they were doing and didn't just fall into generic JRPG villain tropes like trying to destroy the world because of mommy/daddy issues.
Hey, I'm no fan of FFXII's story either. If it also had a good story, it would have been the best in the series by miles. However, I think the stories of XII and XIII are at about the same level of quality, but I found the characters in XII way more interesting and memorable than the ones in XIII. Balthier alone had more personality than everyone in XIII put together.

EDIT: Re-reading your post, I am not sure whether you were being ironic or not. FFXII really did have a rather well-structured political background, it's just that I failed to understand the significance of most of it, that's why I don't consider its story good.
 

Frybird

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And here i thought thinking the lesson you got from Final Fantasy XIII was that "It gets really good after 20 or so hours" is a really, really stupid argument if you want to convince someone else to play it.

(Sorry if it's been mentioned, did not read the comments)
 

JEBWrench

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SatansBestBuddy said:
It's not just health, it's how strong you were, it's what equipment you had, it's the spells and abilities and tactics available to you; everything in FFXIII was so tightly controlled that, unless you choose to royally screw yourself, you're always at the exact point the developers wanted you to be, which meant every fight goes about as well as they wanted it to go.
Aha! So FFXIII was actually developed by BioWare.

Tehlanna TPX said:
But yes, opinions. Potato, potatoe.
You do realize only one of those is right?
 

Ben Legend

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Apr 16, 2009
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Final Fantasy XIII wasn't the first RPG to fully restore health after each individual battle. The Last Remnant did it, and i'm sure there are other games out there that did it before that.

Just wanted to throw that out there. :)
 

Joe Kilner

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Jun 23, 2010
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I may be only speaking for myself hear, but I actually like easy battles. I go to games for escapism, exploration, immersion in a fantastic environment etc., not a challenge.

OK, you don't want a game to be _too_ easy, but I want to be able to expect to beat every boss first time (note - that's not the same as actually beating every boss first time). It's all about the fine line between "challenging" and "frustrating" and the fact that I have a finite amount of time to play games and don't want to feel like I've been wasting that time butting up against a brick wall.

But back to the point - I'm enjoying FFXIII (I just hit the exploration / cieth stones bit) I like the game mechanics and the storyline, and it's certainly very pretty. But it doesn't feel like a real world. You don't really feel like anything has happened in this world other than this single storyline you are participating in. And that's because you can't explore and talk to other people.

Take FFVII - being able to walk up to a random stranger and have they say something about their life gives that illusion of depth to the world, like there's more to it than what you happen to be seeing while playing the game. That's been in all the FF games, and is one of the reasons I really like them. All that's left in FFXIII is fighting and cutscenes. Which for me is a bit sad.
 

Harlemura

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May 1, 2009
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danpascooch said:
Oh, and this isn't a main point, but from my experience, Final Fantasy has two great equipment systems:

1.) The materia system (FF7)
2.) The Job System (FF Tactics Advance 1&2, and FF9?)

They should stick with one of those.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, with things like the materia system at least, didn't they change every game? VII had materia, VIII had junctioning, X had the node thingies, stuff like that.
I thought mixing it up was what kept bringing fans back, for better or worse.

Anyway, the article.
Although I agree with all the good points, it seemed pretty unbalanced seeing as how the bad points were barely mentioned.
Or is that just Mr. Funk's positive way of writing? I wouldn't know, this is the first of his things I've read.
 

Hurr Durr Derp

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I haven't played FFXIII and I'm not planning to, but I disagree with the article in a general sense.

The biggest problem I have with this approach is that it reduces the combat to a series of isolated, unrelated events. In most other games, winning a fight isn't everything. If you win the fight but lose most of your health, you're in a bad position to start the next fight. So you have to think ahead, stock up on supplies, decide to finish off the enemy quickly or conserve MP... It adds an extra layer of strategy to consider, and gives a sense of relevance and continuity to every fight. If you get fully restored after every encounter, then those encounters become less of an obstacle to face and more of a way to fill some time in between the interesting bits.
 

Onyx Oblivion

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Sep 9, 2008
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thekg said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
Some say he grows on you. He never did for me.
Hope grows on you because his idiot Project Nora stops and his ass-kickery sky-rockets. That's exactly what happens.
I did beat the game, you know. I don't see any of this "ass kickery".
 

digital warrior

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Oct 17, 2008
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This game sucks, I'm usually the guy who says its a matter of opinion but no this games sucks. The healing after battle makes the game a slog, it hurts the pacing even more and it was slow to begin with. The characters are annoying, the story is confusing and bullshit, the exposition is not well weaved into the narrative. It's boring, repetitive, stupid, annoying and I hate it with the white hot intensity of a thousand first gen x-box 360's.
 

Matthew Lynch

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digital warrior said:
This game sucks, I'm usually the guy who says its a matter of opinion but no this games sucks. The healing after battle makes the game a slog, it hurts the pacing even more and it was slow to begin with. The characters are annoying, the story is confusing and bullshit, the exposition is not well weaved into the exposition. It's boring, repetitive, stupid, annoying and I hate it with the white hot intensity of a thousand first gen x-box 360's.
I hear you. I have played a few of the PS1 FF games and Final Fantasy X. Final Fantasy 13 is to them what a cardboard house is to an atomic bomb bunker.

It should be right at the top of the list of games that should be done again...preferably with developers who actually have brains and not pieces of cheese where the brain should be.
 

Veldt Falsetto

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danpascooch said:
I am a huge Final Fantasy fan, but the worst part about FFXIII is that they stripped all the best parts of Final Fantasy out of it!

Good story: GONE! (this is just my opinion, but I'd prefer a story where all the characters are not depressed over being devoured by a terminal illness the entire time, it's a little hard to enjoy the story when you're constantly being reminded "oh right, none of this matters because I'll be dead in like 3 days")

Exploration: GONE!

Sidequests: GONE!

(Exploration and sidequests came into play when 95% of the games main story and narrative was done, even then, it was just exploring small patches of grassy wilderness and taking "go kill this" quests from FUCKING STONES, seriously, who at Square came up with THAT one. I would have loved to visit an actual shop at an actual town and see some normal NPC's that weren't trying to throw me in jail so I can spend the last six days of my life before I become a monster in a jail cell! JUST ONCE! I never thought a game could make me miss traversing towns filled with mindless NPC's, but somehow FFXIII achieved that.)

Oh, and this isn't a main point, but from my experience, Final Fantasy has two great equipment systems:

1.) The materia system (FF7)
2.) The Job System (FF Tactics Advance 1&2, and FF9?)

They should stick with one of those.

The ONLY redeeming factor was that you were healed after each battle, but when talking about major issues like the above, that's nothing. It's like having your legs eaten off by wolves, and then given a lollypop, the candy does NOT make up for the fact that you just had your limbs ripped off by a pack of savage animals!

For basically the entire game I was waiting for that I'M OUT OF MIDGAR! WOOOOOOOO! moment where it stops being linear and you're free to explore a giant world and take on meaningful missions, and when it never came (not in any significant way, it only existed as a half-square mile of grassy plains populated by rocks that just felt tacked on), it just left me going "what the hell was that!?" when the game ended.

I kept wondering, why was the game so linear? Until I saw the article with the rediculous statement that: "A new FF7 would take 40 years to make". Assuming that is true, and that Square plans to release a new Final Fantasy every 5 years at the longest, that means that because of their graphical standards, they will never make a game with even ONE EIGHTH! of the content of FF7 ever again. (and that's not considering the fact that all of the groundwork for FFVII is completed, and balanced appropriately) I for one am not alright with that, JRPG's have been nearly killed by new Western RPGs, and if they try to cut the content down by 90% for the sake of graphics, they're screwed.

PS: I didn't think that restoration after battle hurt the "hardcore" aspect of the game, but only being able to control one character was stupid, and DID water it down.
Oh shush!

The story is your opinion yes but the reason the story was good is because it effects the whole game, to the NPCs you love to chat to mindlessly you are monsters who are going to kill them all, they aren't exactly gonna invite you in for a cup of tea and engage in pleasantries with you, no, they're gonna run away.
At the start of the game (the bit where you control Hope before going after Snow) you can talk to a bunch of NPCs but instead of having you talk to them and say nothing back you just overheard their conversations. I personally think the story worked amazingly well and all the characters (aside from Vanille (but she does develop into a more human character)) react in a very human way, perhaps over the top for drama's sake but no more so than any film released in the last few years and at least the story dealt with something relatable and interesting.

Yeah the exploration and sidequests were little (they weren't gone completely) but it's exactly the same as FFX in that regards, the next big console FF title will have huge open spaces and towns etc etc, it took them 5 years to make Crystal Tools engine, now that it's been made they can work more quickly with it and keep the same graphical quality.

Also a big NO to materia, it wasn't at all interesting and made every character such a blank canvas, they may as well be literal squares with limit breaks being the only thing to tell who is who

Also, it DOES use the job system it's just under a different name, the job system has just evolved from being the static 1 job forever as in FF1 and 3, then to the interchangable job system outside of battle as in FF5 then the dressphere system where you change your job in battle in FFX-2, it's just been stylised and improved upon in due time.

In reply to this:
[I am a huge Final Fantasy fan, but the worst part about FFXIII is that they stripped all the best parts of Final Fantasy out of it!]

Being the huge Final Fantasy fan that you are, I'd thought you'd know the best and only real element every Final Fantasy from 1 onwards has held, the fact that each and every single one has a completely different system in place, whether it's levelling, equipment, movement, battle systems every title in the franchise has a big change with each game and whatever it doesn't change, it evolves from something in the past that was similar and improves upon it.

Final Fantasy XIII is an excellent story with a great feel of urgency to it (my opinion) with the world map and Sphere Grid from FFX changed to fit with the theme of urgency of the game, the battle system of FFX-2, improved to make it that much more streamlined and interesting, a strange equipment upgrade system that doesnt quite work, and amazing presentation.