View from the Road: What Do WoW and Twilight Have in Common?

[Tom Phoenix]

View from the Road: What Do WoW and Twilight Have in Common?

We nerds get awfully protective of things that don?t actually exist.

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Oh dear heavens, THANK YOU! Thank you for pointing out something I have thought for a long, long time!

I dislike Twilight as well, but I never really understood the argument that the vampires in Twilight aren't "real vampires". The truth is, there is no "right" way of potraying vampires, since how they are potrayed is open to the interpretation of the author. If the author of Twilight decided that the vampires in her fictional universe will be vegetarians and sparkle in sunlight, that is her choice. There is no rule that an author absolutely must adher to standard conventions of how vampires are potrayed.

To be honest, I think fantasy authors are already way too stuck to the idea that the inclusion and/or potrayal of a certain race needs to follow certain guidelines. Why do all orcs need to be primitive warriors? Why do all elves need to be tall, graceful and make for good archers? Why do dwarves "have to be" included in every fantasy work (not that I mind them)? Really, it's kind of sad that in a genre with numerous possibilities, authors are so unwilling to explore new ideas and concepts.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

If you can suspend your disbelief enough to believe that we're fighting demons by slinging shadow magic at them, you can suspend your disbelief to believe in vampires, even vegetarian ones or ones that glitter in sunlight.

Not if the basis for them being vegetarians isn't there. Demons and shadow magic have their own rules set down. The ones for Twilight actually contradict each other.

 

[Jacob.pederson]

i beleive as long as your true to the base material, you can take some liberties. add stuff, take stuff out, tweak the formula. usually for the sake of realism, or because of how difficult it is to achieve. (i had a good example, but seemed to forgot.)

Very well said, and it makes a whole lot of sense. I never really noticed how we get all fumed up over vampires, but not about trolls and elves.

Also, interesting side note, vampires didn't die in sunlight until a popular movie came out in the 50's, at which point it suddenly become taboo to go against the idea.

And I'm totally making a worgen mage.

if that's true, then we should be able to forgive the "sparkle in the sunlight" thing. but we won't. oh hell no.

also, vampires started out as humanoid blood sucking monsters, not emo fags who live forever.

fucking Stephanie whatever-the-fuck-her-name-is.

So your on a first name basis then?

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

Well, with Twilight and crap, the whole "But he's a vampire!" is just a vice. Edward could have been a serial rapist, a demon, a dwarf, a regular fucking guy, and the story would still be exactly the fucking same. However, the author decided she anted to take a beloved image of horror, and dumb it down to an all time low, so she could make a quick buck off of tween girls.

Just a thought

EDIT: also, it brings down the monster for the rest of us. 10 years ago, vampires were bad ass. Now, they are incredibly gay and nobody in their right mindset would think they have a good place amongst other dangerous (mythical) beings.

 

[Therumancer]

Actually John, I think part of the issue is that your dealing with ancient mythology vs. popular fantasy. To the best of my knowlege "Orcs" as they exist now have no real mythological counterpart. Nobody ever claimed real knights fought off "Orc Hordes". It leaves itself to a certain degree of interpetation. On the other hand, Vampires and Werewolves can be traced back to long-lasting mythologies, and as creepy as it is you can find that similar myths occured all over the world. Heck, one amusing thing about Werewolves was that Lewis and Clark allegedly claimed they were read and that they had met Native Americans who could shapeshift.

Speaking of shapeshifters, when dealing with fantasy, that's another key element right there when it comes to werewolves in general. To hardcore fantasy enthusiasts there is a differance between someone who has been cursed with Lycanthropy, and someone who simply has the abillity to assume a wolf-like shape. The distinction has actually been used in a few stories. For example when a wizard or fey creature who can alter their form runs into a Lycanthrope, which might lead to two ginormous wolves going at it, though only one of them is actually a werewolf.

It's sort of like if someone was to take people with vaguely scaly skin and say they are dragons...

I think there are some limits to artistic liscence.

What's more I'll argue that when people first started doing the romantic vampire thing, it was differant, and it was interesting because of the monsterous nature of vampires and such. As time has gone on they have simply been turned into a group of superhumans who may or may not actually NEED to prey on humanity... and they have also become progressively whinier and more "emo" than in any way dark, or tragic (which was the original point of the first stories).

Such are my thoughts.

 

[Dobrev]

I loved the backstory of how Worgen came to be. Apperantly they were actualy a trans-dimensional race brought to Azeroth by a powerhungry wizzard to use as an unstoppable army. The cursed denizens of Gilneas are actualy infected with mutated version of the worgen blood.

What Blizzard has been doing with Warcraft lore is realy crazy, increadible, unbelivable, insightfull and puzzling all at the same time.

 

[blindthrall]

I always just assumed it was Masquerade rules, with different kinds being different clans. Dracula was Ventrue, Nosferatu was...Nosferatu, and Cullen was Tremere. In the second Masquerade game, it's hinted that sunlight doesn't kill the vamps, that it's just a tool to keep the vampires out of sight and control them. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the working over zombies have gotten, they weren't even originally dead.

OT: I'm taking option B, that Worgen is furrybait.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

Trying to find new spins on old concepts shouldn't be (and isn't) necessary, but it shouldn't be condemned, either

I think it's perfectly acceptable to condemn concepts that don't make sense in their own concept.

Twilight "vampires" fail because if they did exist, they'd break major laws of physics, chemistry, biology, anthropology and many other natural laws. And if you disregard those laws, without providing suitable laws to sustain them, they fail under their own laws.

Teleporters, Time Travel and numerous other "soft" sciences work because they provide a pseudo-scientific basis for their existence. If you're actually theorising a massive density, invulnerable creature that survives purely on an organic soup created by an inferior life-form; and has a biological component that itself acts intelligently, then there's an awful lot of laws you have to re-write to accommodate it. If you then want to add in a hyperactive shapeshifter than draws physical matter from nowhere, survives on the same soup, and is at constant war with a far superior enemy, which can re-create itself purely by swapping soup with another inferior life-form, then the basic laws of causality collapse into an author wishlist.

Fireballs may not exist; but thermodynamics, conservation of energy/momentum etc. that allow humanity to survive have to take account of this.

"Normal" vampires are creatures cursed by a Higher power to act like blood junkies, resembling the effects of known diseases (Porphyria/Rabies), known drug effects (PCP, Heroin) and base human fears (Xenophobia, Nictophobia, Sexual Predatory behaviour).

If Worgen have Crinos forms that draw power from Elder Gods, then I've no problem with them. If they have normal platemail that shifts with them, then there's something that needs looking at.

I'm sorry, but this is one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard. If you can suspend your disbelief enough to believe that we're fighting demons by slinging shadow magic at them, you can suspend your disbelief to believe in vampires, even vegetarian ones or ones that glitter in sunlight.

This argument actually holds some weight. If an element in a unniverse like our own(Twilight) doesn't work as it would in real life, one must do a quick explanation as to why, or elkse you lose realism. Even a cheap handwave is fine, really. This little explanation helps with the willing suspension of disbeleif.

For example, if you character can jump 6 feet straight up,this has to be explained somehow, even if it is as simple as "he is superman". The more crazy the idea, the better the explanation, or the suspension of disbeleif gets strained a little more.

 

[sunpop]

Orks say WAAAGH because they are truly the best version of orks. People hate Garrosh in warcraft because he is so bloodthirsty but he is really just the most orkish one around and that's why he is taking over.

On a side note I won't be getting kittenclysm as I know I will end up just flying around bored out of my mind again as it always ends up that way.

 

[Chipperz]

First, John Funk, thank you so much for saying this. Absolutely right.

Actually, White Wolf did it waaaaaaaaay before Stephanie Meyer - the vampires of the World of Darkness are infinitely the most emo twatty bastards I have ever read.

And, in turn, Anne Rice did it way before White Wolf with Interview with the Vampire. She's the person they were ripping off most when they created Vampire: The Masquerade. A few other people too. (For goodness sake, one of the clans is named Nosferatu.) But Anne Rice was clearly the most powerful influence for the setting.

Of course, they're also the most badass this side of Blade.

Justin Achilli, the last developer on Vampire: The Masquerade, was pretty much willing to come out and flat out call the film version of Blade a V:tM ripoff [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.whitewolf/msg/97116fd1ecb4b3f4?]. Make of that what you will. (Having not seen the film, I can't comment personally.)

Heh, cheers for linking that letter, I had a great time reading it, he's a very funny guy! I hadn't really thought of Blade as being that World of Darness-ey. I know Underworld had some legal problems with White Wolf that should have been settled with a slight rewriting and being called World of Darkness - The Movie, but I didn't really think that about Blade, too.

Also, while I'd admit that Anne Rice had pretty emo vampires, I'd still say that World of Darkness has more emo wankstain vampires

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

I loved the backstory of how Worgen Orcs came to be. Apperantly they were actualy a trans-dimensional race brought to Azeroth by a powerhungry wizzard demon to use as an unstoppable army.

Hey look, I think Blizzard is getting lazy

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

Not a bad piece, although I must disagree. The thing I refuse to stand about the Twilight vampire is that it has absolutely none of the dignity that's been afforded to its type. Even the Count from Sesame Street has a certain gravitas for the environment that it's in, but Edward does not. There is absolutely nothing about the story that is related to his being a vampire that you couldn't replace with a mortal jock, and his vampiric characteristics have been literally defanged into just a nice little side dish. "Oh, you're a vampire? That's cool."

If Meyer wanted to play up his undeath in a vampires against the rest of civilization scenario, then THAT could have made a more interesting romance. But it wasn't. The whole concept of his being a vampire was for no other reason than to cut off the balls of a cultural icon and monster, and that is why I object to it.

Also to draw in more emo teens

 

[wordsmith]

Trying to find new spins on old concepts shouldn't be (and isn't) necessary, but it shouldn't be condemned, either

I think it's perfectly acceptable to condemn concepts that don't make sense in their own concept.

Twilight "vampires" fail because if they did exist, they'd break major laws of physics, chemistry, biology, anthropology and many other natural laws. And if you disregard those laws, without providing suitable laws to sustain them, they fail under their own laws.

Teleporters, Time Travel and numerous other "soft" sciences work because they provide a pseudo-scientific basis for their existence. If you're actually theorising a massive density, invulnerable creature that survives purely on an organic soup created by an inferior life-form; and has a biological component that itself acts intelligently, then there's an awful lot of laws you have to re-write to accommodate it. If you then want to add in a hyperactive shapeshifter than draws physical matter from nowhere, survives on the same soup, and is at constant war with a far superior enemy, which can re-create itself purely by swapping soup with another inferior life-form, then the basic laws of causality collapse into an author wishlist.

Fireballs may not exist; but thermodynamics, conservation of energy/momentum etc. that allow humanity to survive have to take account of this.

"Normal" vampires are creatures cursed by a Higher power to act like blood junkies, resembling the effects of known diseases (Porphyria/Rabies), known drug effects (PCP, Heroin) and base human fears (Xenophobia, Nictophobia, Sexual Predatory behaviour).

If Worgen have Crinos forms that draw power from Elder Gods, then I've no problem with them. If they have normal platemail that shifts with them, then there's something that needs looking at.

I'm sorry, but this is one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard. If you can suspend your disbelief enough to believe that we're fighting demons by slinging shadow magic at them, you can suspend your disbelief to believe in vampires, even vegetarian ones or ones that glitter in sunlight.

If I read it right, "That's not realistic" wasn't what he was getting at. "There's no explanation to it" or better yet "there is an explanation which makes no sense at all" sounds about right.

The actual point is relevant, however it gets swept away. If it's regular plate mail, what happens to it? Werewolf folklaw never quite managed this one either, half of them went with "they shift, lose their clothes and end up naked" (Terry Pratchett's Angua), the rest never quite manage it, and if I'm asked to suspend my disbelief, at least have half a lie prepared when my head asks "Why is that?"

Vampires are weakened in sunlight. Over exposure kills them, that's what it's done since the first outbreaks in western literature in the 18th century. What Miss Meyer created was not a vampire, it was a fairy with blood fetish.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

I dunno, I'm not upset by it I guess, but the Moonrage Worgen (Pyrewood folks), male and female I presume, all seemed to turn into the same model of "Worgen", as well as the Wolfcult in Grizzly hills, though I think those that transformed were male-only... can't remember right now...

So I understand that they need a distinct shape for the player's perspective, but at the same time, they never really were distinct.

Also, the way they did it wasn't completely unexpected; no matter what the males are shaped after, add boobs and hips and cure the scoliosis to make a female version. Granted, this works a little better for Worgen as they were human at one point...

TLR; I don't quite get it anyway, but meh.

 

[jtesauro]

I think I'm the only one to touch on this, but as it's something I was giving some thought also...

Worgen Druid, John. I feel like I never gave the class a real shot, so maybe the fresh zone and reworked Azeroth will be a good time to try it out.

Though when I heard about Worgen's being druids, it still struck me as a bit weird. I mean when you're already a 12 foot tall human wolf, is turning into a bear that badass?

Still should be fun.

 

[starhaven]

i hate wow and i hate twilight not because of what they have done with fantasy i mean its fantasy that means it can be anything but because they are crap

and yes i did read the books and yes i have played it i just didnt like ethier

 

[Brainst0rm]

Well, I already loved you, John Funk (just for the record), but it is now a somewhat more fierce devotion.

And I'm tired to death of the standard fantasy races that have been so shamefully overused, so that's all I'm going to say.

 

[Supp]

Vampires and Werewolves are used so often because they represent some of our greatest fears in simple recognizable themes. Vampires are fear of things foreign and diseased. Werewolves are fear of the monster inside you.

When people start using them outside of an easy scare, they take away the value of the originals. I doubt people could watch Dracula and still feel the same way about it.

I don't actually care if someone uses a mythological creature because its recognizable, but werewolves and vampires were created for the reason of being scary. Why can't they stay away from them and stick to elves?

lol furries

 

[Madshaw]

While reading this I was reminded of the letter that a Twillight fan wrote to Universal complaining that The Wolfman was nothing like the wolf pack from Twlight.

I had never felt such rage whilst reading a letter in my life.

that sounds odd. there are "proper" werewolves in twilight aswell

they are only mentioned in the shoddy ending to the last book, but they are there

 

[Agayek]

Perhaps it isn't the different interpretation at all, but rather the medium in which they're being interpreted. That is, we hate Edward Cullen not because he's a vegetarian vampire who sparkles in the sunlight, but because he's a vegetarian vampire who sparkles in the sunlight in an obscenely popular book aimed at young girls that isn't particularly good. If Edward made his debut in Blade or Buffy or Angel, maybe geeks would have been all over that.

I think more of the outrage over Twilight vampires is that literally the only thing they have in common with "real" vampires is that they drink blood. MovieBob basically nailed it in one of his videos. They're generic superhumans that Meyers decided to call vampires. Literally the only similarities between Twilight vampires and "real" vampires is that they're both pale and drink blood. I personally find it mildly annoying, if only because there's most of a generation who have no concept of what a vampire is actually supposed to be.