Visual Novels; their place in the gaming world?

[Windcaler]

I think the answer is obvious. It depends on how the visual novel is done.

Most visual novels have extremely limited or sometimes even no interactivity making them not games but instead the equivilent of a book with pictures. Then there are some VNs such as Nocturnal illusion or Hunnie pop that allow for movement around the area and interaction with certain characters at the times the player decides. Then there is Long live the queen which has a ton of interactivity and a changing story based around what you do in the game.

VNs by themselves vary from VN to VN just as any other genre so I dont think you can flat out say that all VNs are or are not worthy of being called games

 

[remnant_phoenix]

In the gaming world? Well, people get really up-in-arms about what constitutes a "game," so I'm not gonna touch that one.

In the world of interactive media as a whole? They occupy a space between novels and traditional video games. They are novel-like in the sense that the primary purpose is to take in a story through text. They are like a game in that they can have a participatory element from the reader (via branching storytelling) and use electronic pictures/sound to illustrate the story that is told in the text.

I think the bad rap that VNs get comes from the popularity of the genre (specifically the particular H-word sub-genre) in Japan. Like video games get a bad rap in the non-gaming world because they think CoD kiddies, GTA, and Duke Nukem are representative of the genre as a whole, the VN gets a bad rap because people unfamiliar with the genre gravitate toward the idea that it's nothing but a medium for animu pervs (even though it's not).

 

[CaitSeith]

snip

They border the line of interactive media and videogame. It's really the gameplay which differences games like "Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney" or "Hatoful Boyfriend" from novels where your only interactivity is the equivalent of turning pages...

Spoiler: ...or something like this

...or something like this interactive Youtube video:

 

[Scars Unseen]

Ah, so nice to see people fall back on the old 'I've played one or two and didn't like them personally therefore they are all shit' argument. Always warms the heart.

Here's another heart-warmer: people who dismiss others' opinions unless they've played 20 games in a genre that hasn't held any appeal to them since game #1. It's the "it gets better 20 hours into the game" argument of excellence. Dude, there's only so much shit I'll wade through before I give up on a game/genre. I've played through about 10 visual novels and didn't like any of them very much. How many more before I'm allowed to criticize, again?

There is a difference between not liking something and something being bad. There are ways to express one's opinion without insulting other people in the thread(including the OP) by dismissing an entire genre/format they like as trash. You aren't using them. So yes, I dismiss your opinion because it is poorly thought out and dismissive not only of the format, but of those who enjoy it. And yes, you really aren't qualified to claim critical authority of something you don't play, particularly when, of the games you listed, only one is an actual visual novel, and that an amateur work that is decent but overrated when compared to its contemporaries.

I don't play many FPS games. I play no sports games. The fighting genre is something that gets really boring to me after a few hours of play. I don't criticize the merit of any of them. I say I don't like them. I say they hold no appeal to me. But I don't insult people who do like them by claiming that they would be better off in a trash bin. Because not only would that make me an asshole, it would make me a closed minded asshole who can only see the merit in things that interest me personally. And while I don't particularly care if people like me or not, I try not to disappoint myself.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Ah, so nice to see people fall back on the old 'I've played one or two and didn't like them personally therefore they are all shit' argument. Always warms the heart.

Here's another heart-warmer: people who dismiss others' opinions unless they've played 20 games in a genre that hasn't held any appeal to them since game #1. It's the "it gets better 20 hours into the game" argument of excellence. Dude, there's only so much shit I'll wade through before I give up on a game/genre. I've played through about 10 visual novels and didn't like any of them very much. How many more before I'm allowed to criticize, again?

There is a difference between not liking something and something being bad. There are ways to express one's opinion without insulting other people in the thread(including the OP) by dismissing an entire genre/format they like as trash. You aren't using them. So yes, I dismiss your opinion because it is poorly thought out and dismissive not only of the format, but of those who enjoy it. And yes, you really aren't qualified to claim critical authority of something you don't play, particularly when, of the games you listed, only one is an actual visual novel, and that an amateur work that is decent but overrated when compared to its contemporaries.

I don't play many FPS games. I play no sports games. The fighting genre is something that gets really boring to me after a few hours of play. I don't criticize the merit of any of them. I say I don't like them. I say they hold no appeal to me. But I don't insult people who do like them by claiming that they would be better off in a trash bin. Because not only would that make me an asshole, it would make me a closed minded asshole who can only see the merit in things that interest me personally. And while I don't particularly care if people like me or not, I try not to disappoint myself.

It's simple: I don't consider visual novels games, which by definition require interactivty. What little "interactivity" there is, it's on par with turning the pages of a picture book, and not a very good one at that. The majority are about getting a girlfriend. Text is either description of the things you're already looking at, or dialogue, which is usually very poorly written. My point is, the people who actually know how to write don't make games to get their point across. Cormac McCarthy, Thomas Pynchon, Michel Houellebecq, Paul Auster, Chuck Palahniuk, J. M. Coetzee: they don't make digital picture books to tell stories. Because their primary concern isn't crafting an empowering teenage fantasy akin to Choose Your Own Adventure.

That is my informed opinion. I don't respect visual novels as games to begin with, nor do I respect their lamentable attempts at literature.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Ah, so nice to see people fall back on the old 'I've played one or two and didn't like them personally therefore they are all shit' argument. Always warms the heart.

Here's another heart-warmer: people who dismiss others' opinions unless they've played 20 games in a genre that hasn't held any appeal to them since game #1. It's the "it gets better 20 hours into the game" argument of excellence. Dude, there's only so much shit I'll wade through before I give up on a game/genre. I've played through about 10 visual novels and didn't like any of them very much. How many more before I'm allowed to criticize, again?

There is a difference between not liking something and something being bad. There are ways to express one's opinion without insulting other people in the thread(including the OP) by dismissing an entire genre/format they like as trash. You aren't using them. So yes, I dismiss your opinion because it is poorly thought out and dismissive not only of the format, but of those who enjoy it. And yes, you really aren't qualified to claim critical authority of something you don't play, particularly when, of the games you listed, only one is an actual visual novel, and that an amateur work that is decent but overrated when compared to its contemporaries.

I don't play many FPS games. I play no sports games. The fighting genre is something that gets really boring to me after a few hours of play. I don't criticize the merit of any of them. I say I don't like them. I say they hold no appeal to me. But I don't insult people who do like them by claiming that they would be better off in a trash bin. Because not only would that make me an asshole, it would make me a closed minded asshole who can only see the merit in things that interest me personally. And while I don't particularly care if people like me or not, I try not to disappoint myself.

It's simple: I don't consider visual novels games, which by definition require interactivty. What little "interactivity" there is, it's on par with turning the pages of a picture book, and not a very good one at that. The majority are about getting a girlfriend. Text is either description of the things you're already looking at, or dialogue, which is usually very poorly written. My point is, the people who actually know how to write don't make games to get their point across. Cormac McCarthy, Thomas Pynchon, Michel Houellebecq, Paul Auster, Chuck Palahniuk, J. M. Coetzee: they don't make digital picture books to tell stories. Because their primary concern isn't crafting an empowering teenage fantasy akin to Choose Your Own Adventure.

That is my informed opinion. I don't respect visual novels as games to begin with, nor do I respect their lamentable attempts at literature.

Fair enough, and a much better argument than you previously used, though I wouldn't go so far as to call it "informed." Basically:

I repeat Sturgeon?s Revelation, which was wrung out of me after twenty years of wearying defense of science fiction against attacks of people who used the worst examples of the field for ammunition, and whose conclusion was that ninety percent of SF is crud.

Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc. is crap. In other words, the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crap is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artforms.

Apply that to your own reasoning, and you'll see why I hold little regard for your opinion.

 

[Fox12]

Their place in the gaming world? A garbage can. Visual Novels are a freakin' cancer. Not only they cost around 100 bucks each, but also they have nothing to compensate for this ridiculous price. Here's what you usually get for your money's worth:

- A few hours of piss-poor writing,
- Characters that are either one dimensional cardboard cutouts, or overly exagerrated anime tropes,
- At least three sex scenes (even when you buy a non-hentai oriented novel; looks almost like they have to meet some kind of T&A quota)
- Some pretty pictures to look at, while you experience the aforementioned shitty writing.

I really don't want to say this but I think you are lying.

Having done some research, several visual novels like Clannad and Fate/Stay Night are free to download and even VNs on Steam like World End Economica are around 13 dollars (steam page for reference [http://store.steampowered.com/app/269250/])

In addition, to use that old cliche, Sturgeon's Law, 90% of most things are crap so yes most VNs will be stupid, horribly written, and fanservice laden while the rest will actually be good in terms of writing and characterization.

Either you had a bad VN experience or there is an ulterior movie for posting

It's true, Visual Novels killed her parents. Now she knows that the only justice *puts on glasses* is the justice you take.

*inception noise*

Seriously, though, it's not nice to call someone a liar. Imported VN are really expensive, but if they're localized and downloaded then they'd be fairly priced. I'm curious enough to get into the genre, but I'm wary, as I know a lot of the material is, frankly, rather poor in quality. If good ones are released then I'd buy them, though. The sex and T&A can be a turn off, depending on how it's handled. I'm not a fanservice person myself, and Japan DOES have a thing for underage girls....

I am curious about that Saya No Uta game by Urobuchi, though.

 

[Entitled]

I'm curious enough to get into the genre, but I'm wary, as I know a lot of the material is, frankly, rather poor in quality. If good ones are released then I'd buy them, though.

Actually, fan translations are a lot better proof of quality than official translations.

Companies like Mangagamer have a habit of translating works like "Cum on! Bukkake Ranch!", or "Ultimate☆Boob Wars!! ~Big Breasts vs Flat Chests~". (Neither of these titles are made up.)

On the other hand, if some devoted otaku bastards bothered to translate hundreds of thousands of words for free, you can bet there is something in the work that inspires fannish devotion at least in some people, and they don't just want to share their erection with the world.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Their place in the gaming world? A garbage can. Visual Novels are a freakin' cancer. Not only they cost around 100 bucks each, but also they have nothing to compensate for this ridiculous price. Here's what you usually get for your money's worth:

- A few hours of piss-poor writing,
- Characters that are either one dimensional cardboard cutouts, or overly exagerrated anime tropes,
- At least three sex scenes (even when you buy a non-hentai oriented novel; looks almost like they have to meet some kind of T&A quota)
- Some pretty pictures to look at, while you experience the aforementioned shitty writing.

I really don't want to say this but I think you are lying.

Having done some research, several visual novels like Clannad and Fate/Stay Night are free to download and even VNs on Steam like World End Economica are around 13 dollars (steam page for reference [http://store.steampowered.com/app/269250/])

In addition, to use that old cliche, Sturgeon's Law, 90% of most things are crap so yes most VNs will be stupid, horribly written, and fanservice laden while the rest will actually be good in terms of writing and characterization.

Either you had a bad VN experience or there is an ulterior movie for posting

It's true, Visual Novels killed her parents. Now she knows that the only justice *puts on glasses* is the justice you take.

*inception noise*

Seriously, though, it's not nice to call someone a liar. Imported VN are really expensive, but if they're localized and downloaded then they'd be fairly priced. I'm curious enough to get into the genre, but I'm wary, as I know a lot of the material is, frankly, rather poor in quality. If good ones are released then I'd buy them, though. The sex and T&A can be a turn off, depending on how it's handled. I'm not a fanservice person myself, and Japan DOES have a thing for underage girls....

One problem with visual novels in the west is that far more cheaply made nukiges(visual novels that focus entirely on sex and nothing else) have been licensed for official release than quality products. That's finally beginning to change, but there will always be more crap than gold out there(just like in with anything else: see above). My advice would be to go to Reddit's VN suggestion subreddit [http://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovelsuggest] and post what you're looking for. Be warned: even some of the best VNs out there have poorly written sex scenes in them. It's a problem, as I mentioned before. Fortunately, these can be quickly skipped through, and some VNs have versions without them(e.g. the Realta Nua version of Fate/Stay Night).

One popular example that is completely sex free is Steins;Gate. It wouldn't be a bad place to start either, though you will need a guide to get the true ending. Also, anything by Key is going to be safe in that regard, though the only thing by Key that is officially translated right now is Planetarian(Clannad's localization recently got Kickstarted though).

 

[NeutralDrow]

Color me legitimately surprised that this thread went sour so quickly. There was little-to-no flaming in the last few I've seen here.

Anyway, barring a few that are indisputably games (Princess Waltz, Kagetsu Tohya) or have some gameplay elements in them (Symphonic Rain, Dangan Ronpa), I definitely acknowledge that most of them are borderline. Just by personal definition, something that allows interaction with the game world and lets the consumer control it to any extent is a game...though it's an easier definition to apply to something with long story branches, labyrinthine affection point systems, or a large number of endings (like the Type-Moon games or The Sagara Family), than it is for something with very little chance for the player to affect the world (like Heart de Roommate or Katawa Shoujo).

Their place in the gaming world? Probably off in a little corner with the rest of the less-defined interactive fiction works, which I like to call the Cool Kids' Table. Less vacuously, if they could find just the perfect spot where I'd be left well enough alone playing them, but they were popular enough to at least give everyone else context to understand my liking for them, I'd be very happy (wait, did I say less vacuously?). It's why I'll always be at least grateful to Katawa Shoujo, no matter how much its fanbase puts me off.
Should probably clarify that I love that game.

Incidentally, there are visual novels that are literally just text (Planetarian, Higurashi, True Remembrance...), but they're more properly termed kinetic novels (Key's label for them) or sound novels (Ryukishi's term for his works). I wouldn't call them games.

Companies like Mangagamer have a habit of translating works like "Cum on! Bukkake Ranch!", or "Ultimate☆Boob Wars!! ~Big Breasts vs Flat Chests~". (Neither of these titles are made up.)

It was a bit disheartening to find they do translate that sort of stuff. But there is still a market for those things.

Besides, they also gave me Da Capo, Edelweiss, Shuffle, Higurashi, ef, Deardrops, and a bunch of other stuff I have high hopes for, so I extend them the same gratitude I gave Peach Princess.

Also, anything by Key is going to be safe in that regard, though the only thing by Key that is officially translated right now is Planetarian(Clannad's localization recently got Kickstarted though).

...oh, right, that's the other stumbling block, finding the ones that are officially translated. Not that it stops me from recommending Kanon to people (or Air, if it's as good as its promising so far), but it does cast a bit of a pall. >_>


CAPTCHA: Do you speak Spanish?
Answer: no

CAPTCHA ERROR

Look, Captcha, just because I live in SoCal...

 

[oZode]

Interactive mediums don't need to have game mechanics.

Is a medium.

There is no reason you gotta have game mechanics to have interactivity. Interactive/visual novels really just seem like a evolution of the choose your own adventure story. How interactive a story heavy game might get is beyond me though.

That being said it could be cool to play a roguelike RPG where what you say/do could have wed redding shit happen to you depending on your choices. Probably already exists, but I haven;t heard of it.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

visual novel's place in gaming does not exist. Visual novel's place in the realm of novels could be a real topic in my opinion, but I do not think they would fare too well. I like reading graphic novels, and I think it would be great if the writing in visual novels was better..... but that has not been my experience. My experience has been that the writing is awful. The medium does have potential though,

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I like them, though most are a form of interactive fiction than gameplay/challenge based gaming as we have known it.

 

[VanQ]

Visual Novels are their own medium and to call them games does them a disservice. Certainly ,there are VNs that border on being games and some games have VN leanings but in general VNs are different and should be treated as such.

Examples of games with VN leanings:
-Persona
-BlazeBlue
-The Atelier series

Examples of VNs with a bit of gameplay:
-Kamidori: Alchemy Meister
-Phoenix Wright


Examples of straight VNs:
-Fate/Stay Night
-Steins;Gate
-Hoshizora no Memoria: Wish upon a Star

The reason why I make this distinction is because while VNs do mix well with games, they don't always mix with gamers. If you're going into a VN, which literally stands for "Visual Novel" and aren't expecting at least a small novel's worth of text then I really wonder what exactly you were expecting. Do you go into Novels expecting a comic strip? Of course not. So why would you go into a Visual Novel and expect something other than a Novel?

_____​

Now that I've made that distinction, some "pure" VNs if you would, that I recommend for their excellence are as follows, listed in order of ease of access:

-Steins;Gate
-Any KEY VN (Clannad, Air, Kanon, Little Busters)
-Fate/Stay Night
-Hoshizora no Memoria: Wish upon a Star
-Yume Miru Kusuri (A drug that makes you dream)
-MajiKoi: Maji de Watashi ni Koi Shinasai


Some pure VNs for people wishing to delve deeper into the medium:
-Umineko
-Saya no Uta
-Sengoku Rance


You know what, here's an infographic with a bunch of great translated VNs that aren't too hard to find. It even has ranking for things like writing and how much erotic material is in them. Right click > view image to see the full sized chart.

Spoiler

 

[Kaimax]

Visual Novels are their own medium and to call them games does them a disservice. Certainly ,there are VNs that border on being games and some games have VN leanings but in general VNs are different and should be treated as such.

QFT. I love this post so much.
-------------------------------------------
OT: Honestly deep down, I don't want VNs to be on the same "side" as mainstream gaming and I don't really mind that some people don't think of it as a game. (although ironically some people say Gone Home is a game just because it has "interactivity"...meh)

I just want people to not generalize VNs into one trope and respect the medium as it's own thing.
Personal stuff about my experience with VNs.

Spoiler

Heck, My first VN was solely to satiate my Puberty needs. "Gibo" (A VN/nukige about doing "bad things" to your step mother) being the first, followed by "Brave Soul" (Standard Fantasy RPG VN with sex in between the plot) and then "Kango Shichyauzo" (A VN/Nukige about Nurses....hmmm nurses...).
As time went on, my taste become better (although I still indulge on the usual ones), and found many VNs that I really enjoyed for it's stories and characters. (I self-learned Japanese in the process)

Now I've played more than 500 Titles Good and bad, and these are some my favorites:
-White Album 2 (Do not play this if you have anger issues)
-Steins;Gate (time traveling done right)
-Baldr Sky (Awesome Isometric mech action)
-To Heart 2 (I'm super weak for generic love stories)

 

[springheeljack]

Allow me to my two cents in if you will. I agree with what some of the other people have said about Visual novels being their own medium I think its true.
I would also contend that the majority of visual novels are really awful sex games. But to dismiss all VNs as such is just being ignorant. Visual novels can have deep rich storylines and incredibly complex characters.In fact the best ones have better writing and story than most video games that I have played.(If you look past some of the at times annoying anime tropes)


I personally got into the genre by playing Galaxy angel because I was obsessed with the anime and the manga at the time and Ever17 and I played Fate/Stay night and never looked back

 

[SquallTheBlade]

I don't consider VNs games. They are books with added pictures, music and possible voice-acting. But I think that makes them so great. Written words are one of the best way to tell a story which books are good at doing. But what's the best way to form atmosphere? Music. VN has both of these which makes them excellent medium to create stories. As a game they are very lacking most of the time. So I don't think they have a place in gaming.

And to those who dismiss all VNs as shit, consider this. Every medium is 90% shit. Most of the games are shit. Most of the books are shit. Most of the movies are shit. But small portion of the medium is good. This applies to VNs as well.
So saying VNs are shit is like saying "all movies are shit". Ridiculous, right?

 

[Asita]

Their place in the gaming world? A garbage can. Visual Novels are a freakin' cancer. Not only they cost around 100 bucks each, but also they have nothing to compensate for this ridiculous price. Here's what you usually get for your money's worth:

- A few hours of piss-poor writing,
- Characters that are either one dimensional cardboard cutouts, or overly exagerrated anime tropes,
- At least three sex scenes (even when you buy a non-hentai oriented novel; looks almost like they have to meet some kind of T&A quota)
- Some pretty pictures to look at, while you experience the aforementioned shitty writing.

I really don't want to say this but I think you are lying.

Having done some research, several visual novels like Clannad and Fate/Stay Night are free to download and even VNs on Steam like World End Economica are around 13 dollars (steam page for reference [http://store.steampowered.com/app/269250/])

Whoa whoa whoa. Back up. Fate/Stay Night is free? As in legitimately free? Since when? I mean from what I'm finding the English patch is free but the VN itself is still full price.

 

[go-10]

Their place in the gaming world? A garbage can. Visual Novels are a freakin' cancer. Not only they cost around 100 bucks each, but also they have nothing to compensate for this ridiculous price. Here's what you usually get for your money's worth:

- A few hours of piss-poor writing,
- Characters that are either one dimensional cardboard cutouts, or overly exagerrated anime tropes,
- At least three sex scenes (even when you buy a non-hentai oriented novel; looks almost like they have to meet some kind of T&A quota)
- Some pretty pictures to look at, while you experience the aforementioned shitty writing.

out of curiosity what sort of games do you enjoy?

 

[ninja666]

out of curiosity what sort of games do you enjoy?

Why do you ask, exactly?