Visual Novels; their place in the gaming world?

[SquallTheBlade]

My personal opinion on the matter is that forcing issues onto characters does not make for interesting characters.

Isn't this normal in fiction(and in real life)? I really can't think of a single main character in any fiction that doesn't have ANY kind of problems in his/her life. Everyone has some kind of issues and the way the character handles those issues is what defines them as characters. That is what gives them depth. Personally I wouldn't like to see a Mr. Perfect without any problems or issues in fiction. That would be just boring.

Humor, wit and character traits that stand out do much more than adding angst and drama each time.

This is also a good way to tell about a character, I have to admit. That's why some VNs get a fandisk which usually only focuses on more lighthearted and humorous stuff but keeps the same characters of previous, more serious VN.

 

[FC Groningen]

Well technically not in real life. Assuming you're a guy, how many girls did you date? How many of those required you to deal with similar problems from the past? I'm well aware that a lot of games and series introduce some sort of problem, but the reason I mentioned it here is because most of the times it feels sort of "forced".

--> Common route. Bright sun, clear sky. Decent girl with some typical Japanese character traits in your average daily life setting (high school or something).

--> "x" route. Dark past, angst, drama etc introduced. Standard development of a lot of VN's.

To me, it feels like most developers only know how to "deepen" the plot in 1 way. The "tip of the iceberg" approach just gets old rather fast. Especially if it doesn't fit the setting. An entire game focussed on, let's say a great war, natural disasters, famine/poverty, or disease; fine, I understand related problems arise. Teenagers in high school; completely different story. Especially if it's all out of self pity and indeed can be solved by a firm emotional speech of the protagonist.

 

[Kaimax]

I don't like the constant clicking in Diablo either. I find that even more annoying, and so does anyone else sitting in earshot. Perhaps it isn't the VNs I don't like, but repetitive strain injuries.

You do know that you can also use the keyboard to progress in a VN.
Enter, to progress and Ctrl/Shift to fast forward/Skip. Heck, most VN developers nowadays makes keyboard usage much more easier and you can simply use one hand.
One developer (GIGA, maker of Baldr Sky) has it's own unique key setup by only using the Z,X,C and space for all the controls (Of course with the arrow keys) and it's implemented on all of their products.

Speaking of controls here, just for shits and giggles, one developer, "WAFFLE" who only does straight Nukige (Straight Porn) made one of their VNs Voice activated, so you have free use of both of your arms (plot wise, your character got both his arm broken).

 

[Mikeybb]

They're not my thing to be honest.

Closest I've come to stepping into that game type is the "Ace Attorney" series which admittedly I found a lot of fun.

The few walking simulators (a term that always makes me smile and thusly I've become fond of) I've played were more enjoyable than the visual novels I tried out.
This isn't to say that VN aren't good, but more that I've never found one that engaged enough to draw me in.
Hatoful boyfriend was probably the one I got furthest with, but it was more an expression of confused curiosity, rather than genuine enjoyment.
The worst, and most forgettable, made me wish I was sitting in my comfy chair reading a good book instead.

So, where does it sit in the gaming world?
In that curious spot, part way between entertainment mediums.
Straddling the border of traditional fiction and electronic entertainment.
It needs a name that conveys the elements of both.
The enhanced visuals of the electronic medium and the detailed story telling of the written element.
That describes the engaging elements of both novel and visual medium.
I suggest "click-to-read computamated-electrobooks".

 

[SquallTheBlade]

Well technically not in real life.

I don't know about you but every friend I've had and every girl that I've dated has had some problems in their lives. First when you get to know people you don't see them. No one wants to share their problems with just anybody. But after you get to know them better you start to see that their lives aren't perfect either. Maybe they have problems with their family, other friends, relatives, school or work. And it's perfectly normal.

Assuming you're a guy, how many girls did you date? How many of those required you to deal with similar problems from the past? I'm well aware that a lot of games and series introduce some sort of problem, but the reason I mentioned it here is because most of the times it feels sort of "forced".

Issues with families are something that I see quite often.

--> Common route. Bright sun, clear sky. Decent girl with some typical Japanese character traits in your average daily life setting (high school or something).

--> "x" route. Dark past, angst, drama etc introduced. Standard development of a lot of VN's.

I don't know, this is something that I quite like. It's the contrast between more serious stuff and lighthearted stuff. First you see that everything seems pretty normal. All is good. But after a while you realize that not everything is well. Then stuff happens and ultimately issue gets resolved in a good way or a bad way.

Teenagers in high school; completely different story. Especially if it's all out of self pity and indeed can be solved by a firm emotional speech of the protagonist.

What VNs have you read where the character was in self pity? Those that I have read had nothing of sorts in them. Maybe I'm just lucky with what I pick up. High school setting is just one of many. It would be dumb to say that all VNs focus on that. And even then, teenagers have problems too and depending on what kind of setting the VN actually has, the problems might be pretty serious.

And hey, this has barely nothing to do with the VNs as a medium anymore. That's more like complaining about the story itself. VNs are a medium which can have many different kinds of stories in them.

 

[Scars Unseen]

What VNs have you read where the character was in self pity? Those that I have read had nothing of sorts in them. Maybe I'm just lucky with what I pick up.

Takeru from Muv-Luv Alternative would probably count, but it isn't treated like a good thing, and is actually part of his character development.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I don't like the constant clicking in Diablo either. I find that even more annoying, and so does anyone else sitting in earshot. Perhaps it isn't the VNs I don't like, but repetitive strain injuries.

I'm not a fan of the clicking either. That's why I map the VN interface controls to my XBox 360 controller so I can comfortably read the VN from my couch.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Well technically not in real life. Assuming you're a guy, how many girls did you date? How many of those required you to deal with similar problems from the past? I'm well aware that a lot of games and series introduce some sort of problem, but the reason I mentioned it here is because most of the times it feels sort of "forced".

--> Common route. Bright sun, clear sky. Decent girl with some typical Japanese character traits in your average daily life setting (high school or something).

--> "x" route. Dark past, angst, drama etc introduced. Standard development of a lot of VN's.

To me, it feels like most developers only know how to "deepen" the plot in 1 way. The "tip of the iceberg" approach just gets old rather fast. Especially if it doesn't fit the setting. An entire game focussed on, let's say a great war, natural disasters, famine/poverty, or disease; fine, I understand related problems arise. Teenagers in high school; completely different story. Especially if it's all out of self pity and indeed can be solved by a firm emotional speech of the protagonist.

Yeah, that seems to be a common trait in Japanese writing: the hidden depths narrative. Yume Miru Kusuri, Fate, Katawa Shoujo and various other vns have this structure and while I personally like it and find those stories compelling, I can understand the tedium. It is also made worse by the whole "protagonist solves everything" mentality of the VNs; I think Yume Miru Kusuri had it so that both parties solved each other's problems through their relationship but it's definably true for the other two. Still, VNs are stuck in a literary rut of sorts and will become more varied as time moves on.

As for the rest of the forum, well, this kind of went nuts. I know that VNs are a source of contention but I didn't expect it to be this much of one. The opinions on display are mostly in support or hate and I'm not sure we are able to come to mutual understanding here.

 

[SweetShark]

Now I have the desire to post all the VN I played all over these years.
But for me:
I "played" a game with the name "Jupiter Knot". You just read it, not make any kinf of choices, nothing. Just reading.
Results? Still many reviewers see it like a game. Even Jim.
So, even if I say this is not a game, other proffesionals said it is a game and it is a good one.
In other words, play/read Jupiter Knot. It is good.

 

[VanQ]

Plays Diablo, no problem.

Plays VN, CLICKING ON THE MOUSE IS HARD!!!

Edit: Actually having a few lines is far better way to read, you don't have a problem of being distracted mid page and starting over.

Diablo caters to the ADHD tier instant gratification, twitch reflex, big explosions and gore in your face most gamers expect these days[footnote]Something that I can appreciate from time to time, just not always.[/footnote]. A VN requires patience and an attention span greater than a 5yo's in order to get any gratification out of it. There's a reason that I said in my previous post that VNs don't mix well with most gamers.

 

[VanQ]

Almost all of those covers are of (teenage?) girls in skimpy school uniforms. They also all have "ero" ratings placed right along with writing and visuals. I'm not against VNs in concept, I actually think new types of story telling are very interesting, but this list doesn't make me want to rush out and jump into the medium.

Forgive me for the several days late post but it took me a while to find the folder with these titles in them. So since girls aren't your thing, here's a list of English translated VNs that might be more to your liking.

-Absolute Obedience
-Silver Chaos
-Starry ☆ Sky ~in Spring~
-Togainu no Chi
-Tokimeki Memorial Girl?s Side
-Yo-Jin-Bo The Bodyguards

A big misconception that seems to be popping up in this thread is that VNs are for hikkikomori/NEET men. There's plenty out there for everybody.

 

[VanQ]

I didn't compare the games, I just rolled out my eyes at a gamer complaining about needing to press a button in a game, when in just about every game you press the same button thousands of times, Diablo just seemed the best comparison, though any shooter or RPG would suffice.

Holy shit, just got to Michiru's side story in Grisaia, the girl needs a cookie and a hug.

I figured that you weren't directly comparing them. I just noted why I thought that people are totally okay clicking away a million times if something explodes when they click but they complain when it takes a couple thousands clicks to shift text.

Grisaia is a personal favourite of mine. Michiru is one of the most fun characters I've had the pleasure of reading about, I have to say. I honestly think she makes a far, far better match with Yuuji than any of the other girls. Her route is especially bitter-sweet. Poor Nekonyan. ;_;

Grisaia cops a lot of flak for being generic but for some reason I really enjoyed the atmosphere and enjoyed Yuuji's interactions with the other characters. If the VN had one great flaw it's that there is no Chizuru route. I really would like to learn more about she and Yuuji met, because it's hinted that it was under extraordinary circumstances, since she knows about his work as a soldier.

Spoilers for the Amane route, in case you haven't read it or seen the anime yet:

Spoiler

I never got around to reading the second and third VNs just yet, but I really want to know what happened to Kazuki after she helps Amane escape from her deranged classmates. I heard that plothole was resolved in one of the later VNs. Hopefully the second season of the anime will cover that.

 

[FC Groningen]

Well technically not in real life.

I don't know about you but every friend I've had and every girl that I've dated has had some problems in their lives. First when you get to know people you don't see them. No one wants to share their problems with just anybody. But after you get to know them better you start to see that their lives aren't perfect either. Maybe they have problems with their family, other friends, relatives, school or work. And it's perfectly normal.

Assuming you're a guy, how many girls did you date? How many of those required you to deal with similar problems from the past? I'm well aware that a lot of games and series introduce some sort of problem, but the reason I mentioned it here is because most of the times it feels sort of "forced".

Issues with families are something that I see quite often.

--> Common route. Bright sun, clear sky. Decent girl with some typical Japanese character traits in your average daily life setting (high school or something).

--> "x" route. Dark past, angst, drama etc introduced. Standard development of a lot of VN's.

I don't know, this is something that I quite like. It's the contrast between more serious stuff and lighthearted stuff. First you see that everything seems pretty normal. All is good. But after a while you realize that not everything is well. Then stuff happens and ultimately issue gets resolved in a good way or a bad way.

Teenagers in high school; completely different story. Especially if it's all out of self pity and indeed can be solved by a firm emotional speech of the protagonist.

What VNs have you read where the character was in self pity? Those that I have read had nothing of sorts in them. Maybe I'm just lucky with what I pick up. High school setting is just one of many. It would be dumb to say that all VNs focus on that. And even then, teenagers have problems too and depending on what kind of setting the VN actually has, the problems might be pretty serious.

And hey, this has barely nothing to do with the VNs as a medium anymore. That's more like complaining about the story itself. VNs are a medium which can have many different kinds of stories in them.

First of all, sorry; not too familiar with messing around with the lay out here yet.

- OF course. Everyone has his/her problems and perhaps things they rather not talk about, but usually the characters in VN's take it to a whole new level. My best examples here are Rin and Hanako in Katawa. Especially Rin eventually just needed some words of encouragement, a hug and to "get her some". Before that it's all "I'm not normal, no one understands me".

As I said, it's also my preferences; In real life I consider such people huge pains as well (I've known 1 or 2 examples). I consider myself tolerant and patient, but eventually that wears off if you just won't help yourself or let others help you.

My problem isn't mainly with the contrast. My main problem is that I see it way too often in VN's. Of course, I can't help but think that teenagers that live in decent welfare and good health are one of the most priviliged groups out there.

True. As I said, I have no problems with VN's as a medium. In fact, I love story driven games like the Walking Dead, The Stick of Truth, Conker's Bad Fur Day and even Heavy Rain despite it's flaws. My problem is that they're just too "Japanese" for my taste. (Again, I loved Grisaia, for it's humor mostly)

edit: I deleted quite a few of them already and I can't remember a lot of titles, but these ones I've read for sure:
- Katawa
- Grisaia
- Clannad
- G-Senjou
- Little Busters

 

[Kaimax]

Almost all of those covers are of (teenage?) girls in skimpy school uniforms. They also all have "ero" ratings placed right along with writing and visuals. I'm not against VNs in concept, I actually think new types of story telling are very interesting, but this list doesn't make me want to rush out and jump into the medium.

Forgive me for the several days late post but it took me a while to find the folder with these titles in them. So since girls aren't your thing, here's a list of English translated VNs that might be more to your liking.

-Absolute Obedience
-Silver Chaos
-Starry ☆ Sky ~in Spring~
-Togainu no Chi
-Tokimeki Memorial Girl?s Side
-Yo-Jin-Bo The Bodyguards

A big misconception that seems to be popping up in this thread is that VNs are for hikkikomori/NEET men. There's plenty out there for everybody.

I Lol'd XD.
OOT: My sister really likes Starry Sky and Tokimeki Memorial GS, heck she even played Amnesia (Not the horror game for those who don't know) and Da Capo Girl's Symphony.
------------------------------
OT: Yeah, people who never delved deep enough to be familiar with VNs mostly don't know what they're talking about. I don't really like talking about "gender equality", but VNs IMHO is the only entertainment medium that has good amount of it or at least waaaay ahead of the modern mainstream gaming industry. Even when there are plenty of VNs catering to the male demographic, there are also a good amount of VNs that caters exclusively to the female demographic, this is why you don't see the same kind of debacle in Japan's VN industry. I never read any news about female VN players rejecting a release of male catered VN or even decrying it as "sexist" as they too have the same kind of VNs made to cater to the females.
Heck...the Fujoshi Power IMHO is starting to be stronger than the average male otaku goers.

 

[VanQ]

Almost all of those covers are of (teenage?) girls in skimpy school uniforms. They also all have "ero" ratings placed right along with writing and visuals. I'm not against VNs in concept, I actually think new types of story telling are very interesting, but this list doesn't make me want to rush out and jump into the medium.

Forgive me for the several days late post but it took me a while to find the folder with these titles in them. So since girls aren't your thing, here's a list of English translated VNs that might be more to your liking.

-Absolute Obedience
-Silver Chaos
-Starry ☆ Sky ~in Spring~
-Togainu no Chi
-Tokimeki Memorial Girl?s Side
-Yo-Jin-Bo The Bodyguards

A big misconception that seems to be popping up in this thread is that VNs are for hikkikomori/NEET men. There's plenty out there for everybody.

I Lol'd XD.
OOT: My sister really likes Starry Sky and Tokimeki Memorial GS, heck she even played Amnesia (Not the horror game for those who don't know) and Da Capo Girl's Symphony.
------------------------------
OT: Yeah, people who never delved deep enough to be familiar with VNs mostly don't know what they're talking about. I don't really like talking about "gender equality", but VNs IMHO is the only entertainment medium that has good amount of it or at least waaaay ahead of the modern mainstream gaming industry. Even when there are plenty of VNs catering to the male demographic, there are also a good amount of VNs that caters exclusively to the female demographic, this is why you don't see the same kind of debacle in Japan's VN industry. I never read any news about female VN players rejecting a release of male catered VN or even decrying it as "sexist" as they too have the same kind of VNs made to cater to the females.
Heck...the Fujoshi Power IMHO is starting to be stronger than the average male otaku goers.

The especially interesting thing to note is that there are several VN and game companies run by women for women in Japan. Who knows what women want in their games/smut more than women? No one. They didn't pressure pre-existing companies that were already catering to an audience to cater to them too. And the result? Japan otaku and fujoshi both get to have their cake and eat it too. Who'da'thunk'it? Hell, one such company, Gust, that makes the Atelier games even has a surprisingly large male portion to their fanbase because their Atelier games are just that interesting.

 

[maninahat]

What I really don't understand is how the fans have grown so accustomed to this standard, they think it is bizarre for others someone question it. Hell, you even said it yourself: "There's no reason to make special CGs for each scene, unless something interesting is happening it's just 2 or more people talking in a room." In a VN, two people talking in a room never looks interesting.

It's not that unusual, that fans of a medium or genre get used to a technical limitation, and identify it as a self-defining quirk.

For example turn based games exist because they were the first adaptations of tabletop games, that needed pen and paper to manually calculate all combat results. Objectively speaking, real time simulations are more efficient at the immersion that was the goal all along. But by the time we had enough computing capacity, gamers started to self-identify as people who care about levelling and inventories and numerical skills, even where they make no realistic sense.

For that matter, you might say that manga are more efficient than VNs, but manga itself isn't as efficient as anime, if you want to reduce everything to amounts of information broadcasted, and novels are not as efficient as movies.

You raise a good point, but individual genres and mediums usually have a reason to stick at a threshold of "efficiency". Turn based games still endure in spite of the existence of real time strategies because some (myself included) like having the luxury of taking the time to decide on your move, without there being a pressure to act fast. A book may not tell a story as quickly as a film, but it can do it in a heck of a lot more detail. A VN though? Apart from the fact that there isn't a "comic book style VN" genre to go with the traditional one (like turn based vs real time strategy), I'm struggling to see the technical or story telling advantage of the "flat angle, blurry background, static sprite" look. Well, no advantage besides...

Okay, well I do know, it is because VNs are made as cheaply and as quickly as possible, so anything that might push up the production cost is out of the question. What I really don't understand is how the fans have grown so accustomed to this standard

Yes, that's part of the reason too. Telling VN devs that they should experiment with making every scene a CG, is a bit like telling mangaka that they should draw enough to make every scene animated. And this point we are talking about orders of magnitudes of different production values, if you still want to tell the same amounts of narrative.

If VNs would be limited to shorter, more comics-like scenes, with quicker and more intense storytelling, to stay affordable, then stories like Ever17, Fate/Stay Night, or Higurashi couldn't have been told.

It is very easy for me to sit here and say that VNs would be better if only they spent more money on them, but that said, I don't believe that every VN developer is working on a shoestring budget. They are a massive market in Japan, and established, successful studios probably could afford to be a bit more extravagant, or at least experiment more.[/quote]

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Atelier is 100% aimed at male gamers in Japan, actually. The same crowd which would watch K-On would play Atelier.