Come on, Grey. We all know that both of those would either never happen, or be outrageously priced services.Grey Carter said:
Volition Dev Vs. Pre-Owned Games
- Thread starter The Wooster
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Oh dear, Volition has angered the beast.
Now before we all get up in arms about the travesty that is opposing used games, try to gain some perspective on both sides of the matter. Penny Arcade made a very strong case for the other side of the debate a year or so ago, and it's worth reading, along with the reader responses that followed.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/
I personally don't have a particularly strong opinion on the matter, but I do think that many gamers seem very entitled when it comes to them and their precious video games. We as consumers do not get to decide how companies sell their products. Express your disdain by withholding your purchase or contacting the company, not by whining and calling them scumbags.
Indeed, I too love saving money on video games, but when I don't have enough money to buy another game I want, tough luck for me. Besides, even if I don't get it immediately, by the time I am able to, odds are the price will have been lowered. By the way (and this is less relevant but still needs to be said) some people complain that most games cost $60 now. Games are extremely expensive to make, even moreso now that the technology is improving so fast. I can't say I enjoy paying more, but everything has its price, and if you want it, you'll have to be willing to pay for it.
Now before we all get up in arms about the travesty that is opposing used games, try to gain some perspective on both sides of the matter. Penny Arcade made a very strong case for the other side of the debate a year or so ago, and it's worth reading, along with the reader responses that followed.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/
I personally don't have a particularly strong opinion on the matter, but I do think that many gamers seem very entitled when it comes to them and their precious video games. We as consumers do not get to decide how companies sell their products. Express your disdain by withholding your purchase or contacting the company, not by whining and calling them scumbags.
Indeed, I too love saving money on video games, but when I don't have enough money to buy another game I want, tough luck for me. Besides, even if I don't get it immediately, by the time I am able to, odds are the price will have been lowered. By the way (and this is less relevant but still needs to be said) some people complain that most games cost $60 now. Games are extremely expensive to make, even moreso now that the technology is improving so fast. I can't say I enjoy paying more, but everything has its price, and if you want it, you'll have to be willing to pay for it.
Say, Volition man, you know what else hurts game sales and developers? Red Faction Armageddon. Remember? It?s that stinkfest you suckered me into buying because Guerrilla was awesome.
If you?re saying I can?t sell it, to get at least part of my money back, I?m going to come to your house and hit you over the head with the game disk, until I feel that the 60$ dollar entertainment value is satisfied.
Sincerely,
A sucker
If you?re saying I can?t sell it, to get at least part of my money back, I?m going to come to your house and hit you over the head with the game disk, until I feel that the 60$ dollar entertainment value is satisfied.
Sincerely,
A sucker
All i can really say is 'Gods help us if the Nextbox does have this system' and 'PC Gaming Master Race FTW' if the PS4 has it too.
If youre wondering about the WiiU, Nintendo has alot to prove in my eyes before i pay money for one of thier consoles again. And im certainly not buying it if its 3rd party games go the same way as the Wii.
If youre wondering about the WiiU, Nintendo has alot to prove in my eyes before i pay money for one of thier consoles again. And im certainly not buying it if its 3rd party games go the same way as the Wii.
I own a PS3, an Xbox and two gaming-capable PCs. I own 24 AAA titles on the PS3/Xbox and about 4 AAA PC titles, plus a massive amount of DLC, downloadable games and non-AAA PC titles. Of those, about 2-3 were bought used (and one of those led to DLC purchases). Most of my games were bought on release day or pre-ordered. But I can say this much, I will never buy a console that features "anti-used game technology." And I'm someone who rarely even buys used games, and never rents. But I'm firm in my rejection of DRM, particularly when it's meant to circumvent legal behavior.
And frankly, the idea that this is reasonable is ludicrous. The online passes are barely that (I don't consider it entirely unfair to pay a one-time fee of $10 for the use of servers). But if you thought about this in terms of books, movies or physical goods...Come on. A DVD-player that only let's you play movies that are bought brand new? A car that can't be driven except by the original owner? Bull.
For any such console to prevail, it'd have to include some insane pull on gamers. AAA titles that are the fraction of the cost on that console than on any other, loads of free quality DLC for every title, an extensive exclusive catalog, or some new, incredible technology (like virtual reality levels of incredible). I don't see that happening, and without it, any such console would fail when we still have PCs to fall back on. So unless Durall has a way to kill PC gaming, it's not going to happen.
And frankly, the idea that this is reasonable is ludicrous. The online passes are barely that (I don't consider it entirely unfair to pay a one-time fee of $10 for the use of servers). But if you thought about this in terms of books, movies or physical goods...Come on. A DVD-player that only let's you play movies that are bought brand new? A car that can't be driven except by the original owner? Bull.
For any such console to prevail, it'd have to include some insane pull on gamers. AAA titles that are the fraction of the cost on that console than on any other, loads of free quality DLC for every title, an extensive exclusive catalog, or some new, incredible technology (like virtual reality levels of incredible). I don't see that happening, and without it, any such console would fail when we still have PCs to fall back on. So unless Durall has a way to kill PC gaming, it's not going to happen.
That war against pre-owned games has to stop! I currently live in China (2nd year here) and if anyone here ever lived in mainland China they would know that it is almost impossible to find a legit copy of anything and that importing games is often almost impossible or terribly expensive.
Still, I do import my games and pay a premium for doing so. I pay good money because I feel morally obliged to pay for something I enjoyed for almost 23 years now (I'm 26). I used to pirate games when I was younger and had absolutely no disposable income. Now I can afford them but it is extremely expensive and difficult for me to buy them but I still do it. It would be absolutely easier for me to have a chipped console here and buy bootleged games here that do come with any DLC that's already released as well as without DRM, for at most $3.
If game devs, publishers and companies come through with this scheme, I will have no right to talk against piracy and will most definitely never buy a game again. Note that I won't stop playing games, new or not. Please, allow me the continued pleasure to pay for my games, new or not, and cut this bullshit.
Still, I do import my games and pay a premium for doing so. I pay good money because I feel morally obliged to pay for something I enjoyed for almost 23 years now (I'm 26). I used to pirate games when I was younger and had absolutely no disposable income. Now I can afford them but it is extremely expensive and difficult for me to buy them but I still do it. It would be absolutely easier for me to have a chipped console here and buy bootleged games here that do come with any DLC that's already released as well as without DRM, for at most $3.
If game devs, publishers and companies come through with this scheme, I will have no right to talk against piracy and will most definitely never buy a game again. Note that I won't stop playing games, new or not. Please, allow me the continued pleasure to pay for my games, new or not, and cut this bullshit.
Those are solutions Durall himself offered. Personally, judging by Games For Windows Live, I don't think Microsoft could organize a pissup in a brewery.SL33TBL1ND said:
*Sigh* Here we go again.
Publishers/developers need to understand that buying used games is not a crime. They might hate it, they might not get all of the profits, but it's not a crime. It's not theft and it's not piracy. Everyone does it; it's not only GameStop/eBay/Amazon who does that, people do it outside the internet and major retailers. Craigslist, ads, etc. Also, I'm not rich, so be thankful over the fact that I at least would get to play your crappy games if they're in the 'less than 15 bucks' bin and I get to keep them forever because I know I would get like 5 cents for them in return. Or else I would never play some games.
You can't stop it. Get over it.
Now, in order to do something like that, a next gen console would need some sort of magical device (Inb4 5 years from now, this device exists and I'm calling it a 'magical device' now) that would allow the system to recognize and...imprint, if you will, on a disc so that no one else but that sole game owner can play the game ever again. So...ignoring the whole used game thing, what happens if I wanna let my friend borrow the disc? What if I get tired of the game? What if the game sucks? What if there's a "Complete" edition coming out in a couple of months (Which are quite trendy now)? Is this guy seriously a design director? Because his comments sound like the kind of comments a preppy 8 year old rich boy would make.
You're telling me that I can't ever get rid of a crappy game that I was led to believe was awesome? Alright, sounds fair enough. In return, though, I demand perfect games from now on. You know, so that it justifies a lifetime of owning your games. Deal? Deal.
You sir/ma'am have won the internet and its surrounding galaxies.
Publishers/developers need to understand that buying used games is not a crime. They might hate it, they might not get all of the profits, but it's not a crime. It's not theft and it's not piracy. Everyone does it; it's not only GameStop/eBay/Amazon who does that, people do it outside the internet and major retailers. Craigslist, ads, etc. Also, I'm not rich, so be thankful over the fact that I at least would get to play your crappy games if they're in the 'less than 15 bucks' bin and I get to keep them forever because I know I would get like 5 cents for them in return. Or else I would never play some games.
You can't stop it. Get over it.
Now, in order to do something like that, a next gen console would need some sort of magical device (Inb4 5 years from now, this device exists and I'm calling it a 'magical device' now) that would allow the system to recognize and...imprint, if you will, on a disc so that no one else but that sole game owner can play the game ever again. So...ignoring the whole used game thing, what happens if I wanna let my friend borrow the disc? What if I get tired of the game? What if the game sucks? What if there's a "Complete" edition coming out in a couple of months (Which are quite trendy now)? Is this guy seriously a design director? Because his comments sound like the kind of comments a preppy 8 year old rich boy would make.
You're telling me that I can't ever get rid of a crappy game that I was led to believe was awesome? Alright, sounds fair enough. In return, though, I demand perfect games from now on. You know, so that it justifies a lifetime of owning your games. Deal? Deal.
Best quote ever. Hands down.TwitchyGamer101 said:
You sir/ma'am have won the internet and its surrounding galaxies.
Except, you know, that kind of is consumers deciding how they want companies to sell their products. By pushing them to do something they like, so as to appeal the consumers and have sales pick up.Samus Aaron said:
OT: Gah, I hate this "anti-used" crap. Most of the stuff is blatant anti-consumer BS, and solves nothing. I don't know why people put up with it. It might be because our culture has conditioned us that capitalism means "consumers serve the will of the corporations", instead of the other way around. Or it could just be that people like to ignore a problem until it is too late. *le sigh*
Without used games to compete against there's no reason to lower the price, after all you can just wait and save up for it...Samus Aaron said:
That's a design decision, good games can and will appeal to people even without multi-millions invested in state of the art rendering tech. It's a risk the developer/publisher make when creating their game that they hope will sell the best. The developer has failed if the player is done with their $60 game in the span of a week and returns it.
I expect the prices of games to rise if there is no competition from used games when the consumer has no choice for better pricing.
So what happens when the Nextbox or NextStation breaks? Do we lose all our games? Do we have to send the console away for weeks so they can transfer the games? What if the warranty has run out?
I really do not see any way that this will not just end up with piracy skyrocketing.
I really do not see any way that this will not just end up with piracy skyrocketing.
Does he understand how horribly expensive it would be to manufacture game disks with individualized coding like that? They would have to make disks one at a time instead of the current mass-production. Online passes are just a DLC key. I do try my best to buy all my games new, but I just recently got a PSP a few months ago. I bought Dissidia 012, and Birth By Sleep new. However Final Fantasy I, Final Fantasy II and Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core were no longer accessible new. I had to buy used. So according to him, it is my fault I didn't have the funds to make the purchase when they were new, and it is my fault SquareEnix no longer ships the game out to retailers? In his dream system, I'd be SOL.
If Microsoft implements this, I'd rather get a Vita than the Nextbox and I hate the Vita.
If Microsoft implements this, I'd rather get a Vita than the Nextbox and I hate the Vita.
So, he doesn't like Gamestop's business model so he supports hurting his customers to hurt Gamestop. Okay, whatever, I think that's stupid but I'm not getting into that. What I am getting into is his last paragraph:
He likes using Amazon because it lets him cheat his way around sales taxes, depriving his local government of money.
So when I buy a used game to save five bucks and cut him out of the deal, it's wrong. When he buys online to save five bucks and cut his government out of the deal, it's great.
He likes using Amazon because it lets him cheat his way around sales taxes, depriving his local government of money.
So when I buy a used game to save five bucks and cut him out of the deal, it's wrong. When he buys online to save five bucks and cut his government out of the deal, it's great.
The day I accept paying a hundred bucks for a game in New Zealand for ten hours or less of entertainment will be the day video games are fucking better. I payed $130NZD for MW3. I've replayed the campaign a few times and played all the spec ops. That's about seventeen hours so far. That's good money. I spent a hundred on Just Cause 2 and Skyrim. Best money ever spent. I spent seventy bucks on F.3.A.R., for a game that was half-assed, and finished in six hours. And was not that fun. That game? I'm going to get my money back, one way or another.
Not to mention, developers got the money when the game sold. They already made their millions and millions of dollars. Boo fucking hoo you didn't get to see another million and million of dollars because people bought them cheaper used. And considering next to no one buys used in a lot of countries, because there is bugger all (Like, three bucks) difference between new and used. Not to mention, I have yet to hear an independent company crying about their used games being resold. Piracy, yeah, I understand. But if people want to sell a game they spent their money on and didn't think it was worth keeping....why the fuck should the developers have a say in that? You are fucking lucky we don't demand the money back, and then you literally have to give the customer the money back, since the game store ALREADY PAID FOR THAT COPY OF THE EVER FUCKING GAME!
<<
Now...imagine that rant ranted by Archer. Oh my god...that'd be amazing. Also, Volition needs to make better games. Saints Rows were surreal, yet they definitely needed a lot more polish to them.
Not to mention, developers got the money when the game sold. They already made their millions and millions of dollars. Boo fucking hoo you didn't get to see another million and million of dollars because people bought them cheaper used. And considering next to no one buys used in a lot of countries, because there is bugger all (Like, three bucks) difference between new and used. Not to mention, I have yet to hear an independent company crying about their used games being resold. Piracy, yeah, I understand. But if people want to sell a game they spent their money on and didn't think it was worth keeping....why the fuck should the developers have a say in that? You are fucking lucky we don't demand the money back, and then you literally have to give the customer the money back, since the game store ALREADY PAID FOR THAT COPY OF THE EVER FUCKING GAME!
<<
Now...imagine that rant ranted by Archer. Oh my god...that'd be amazing. Also, Volition needs to make better games. Saints Rows were surreal, yet they definitely needed a lot more polish to them.
Won't this cause a decrease in sales? I know a fair portion of people that won't buy anywhere as many games, because they will no longer have the option to sell them on, also didn't jimquisition do an episode on why used games have more positives than negatives in the video games industry?
I don't know about anyone else but I'm getting sick of this bullcrap.
Buying used is not bad. End of discussion.
It didn't hurt devs in the past, its not hurting them now.
It's just another tactic being pushed by greedy publishers and developers who want more money that they somehow think they are entitled to. Your already witholding content from us with pre-order dlc, day one dlc, subcriptions, online passes and you somehow think your entitled to more money?
Stop with these scaremonger tactics, its just another enemy you have created in order to avoid adapting to the market and get more money than you deserve. Its what the movie and music industry did in the past and it failed then.
Buying used is not bad. End of discussion.
It didn't hurt devs in the past, its not hurting them now.
It's just another tactic being pushed by greedy publishers and developers who want more money that they somehow think they are entitled to. Your already witholding content from us with pre-order dlc, day one dlc, subcriptions, online passes and you somehow think your entitled to more money?
Stop with these scaremonger tactics, its just another enemy you have created in order to avoid adapting to the market and get more money than you deserve. Its what the movie and music industry did in the past and it failed then.
Any developer that thinks this is a complete idiot.FelixG said:
Buying used doesn't even necessarily mean buying from Gamestop, it could be from cheaper alternatives or just borrowing a game from a friend to try it out.
If you stop people from having used copies you destroy the ability of both potential customers who will buy other games or sequels you make in the future and consumer goodwill. Is that worth it for short term profits?
The really astonishing thing about this is the used game market boosts sales of new games. What do these people think gamers spend the money on when they sell a game? Do they really think everyone who would buy their game at $20 if deprived of that option would pay $60?
Yes AAA titles are starting to have budgets on par with blockbuster movie release, but those cost around $10-20 at a theater and about $20 on dvd. The cost in both industries is nearly all upfront production and advertizement with the cost of manufacturing the medium that winds up in consumers hands probably well bellow a dollar. I guess the folks running game companies today with their fancy business degrees have never herd of a price curve.
Just for a moment imagine its early December your money is tight and a AAA title is just out with a shiny price sticker reading $20 or even $30. Yep assuming you had any interest in the game or likely even its genre you would buy it. Yes they would have to sell more copies to make the same profit but I would bet it would sell the extra copies and then some.
Sometimes I get a very strong impression the only way to land one of the really high paying jobs involves severe neurological damage.
Yes AAA titles are starting to have budgets on par with blockbuster movie release, but those cost around $10-20 at a theater and about $20 on dvd. The cost in both industries is nearly all upfront production and advertizement with the cost of manufacturing the medium that winds up in consumers hands probably well bellow a dollar. I guess the folks running game companies today with their fancy business degrees have never herd of a price curve.
Just for a moment imagine its early December your money is tight and a AAA title is just out with a shiny price sticker reading $20 or even $30. Yep assuming you had any interest in the game or likely even its genre you would buy it. Yes they would have to sell more copies to make the same profit but I would bet it would sell the extra copies and then some.
Sometimes I get a very strong impression the only way to land one of the really high paying jobs involves severe neurological damage.