Warhammer 40K's story, how is it even remotely appealing?

[eternal-chaplain]

I played 40K for a while without delving at all into the mythos. When I did, I turned right around and wnet back to just enjoying the game. It's just...so over-the-top, in the worst of ways.

 

[chinangel]

Meh I can't really understand the draw either. The whole thing is just one big emo-fest IMO, grim, dark, depressing. The last thing I need is a fantasy game trying to remind me that real life sucks.

Yeah, I got that, now let me play a game that doesn't depress the hell out of me.

And yeah there is also the fact that this game was born somewhere in the eighties (if memory serves), so it rather DOES pander to young males, not females. Thus the models, the storyline the kind of...dudebro feel of the game. It's not all that dissimilar from GOW in that regard :S

 

[Augustine]

Well, MOSTLY rubbish, but after hearing the infamous Matt Ward penned chronicle of what the Grey Knights did to the Sisters....FOR NO LOGICAL REASON WHATSOEVER....I gotta raise suspicion in his case.

Matt Ward's "chronicles" are little more than a little burp in the vastness of the universe. Probably will be undone in the future.

 

[J Tyran]

If you really want to understand, take a risk. Spend some money on the Eisenhorn trilogy from the Black Library (unless you're one of those really cool people with exceptionally refined taste who look down on the Black Library... /sarcasm). There is no finer science fiction out there, in my opinion. No superiors at all, only peers.

W40K is written on a lot of levels. It's a multifaceted universe with a huge ensemble of contributors that are relevant to a wide range of audiences. Some are repellant to me. Many are not.

Honestly, I wouldn't go that far. The Eisnehorn trilogy is good, but it's got some flaws.

First off is Eisenhorn himself, in two prongs:

The books are written in first person, and to be honest, it's not Abnett's strong suit. He literally says as much in the introduction. We loose a lot of material over the course of the books because everything is from Eisenhorn's perspective. While it works as a cop out, it also means we're left to infer any character flaws he may actually have because he sure as hell isn't going to put them in his report.

The lack of personal flaws is a pretty serious, and pretty solid problem. It's only in context with the glut of really genuinely badly written protagonists that saturate most media these days that this one gets lost. He is constantly surrounded by more flawed, and to an extent, more interesting inquisitors, while he marches on, the designated hero, accruing scars to demonstrate his prowess. This only gets worse as those scars, injuries, and lost equipment don't really work against him in the long run.

I'd get into serious spoiler territory here, but off hand, thinking of any serious failure and setback he suffers, and you can point to an event usually in the same book, where that new disadvantage actively benefits him.

At the same time we've got Bequin, who goes from being an actual character in the first book, to a random background object that Eisenhorn would like to bang, but can't so he angsts about it... the aversion people feel towards blanks mysteriously vanishes between the events of the first and second book, along with her presence... she does the mother hen thing briefly, and then... stick a fork in her, she's done. She wanders around aimlessly for the rest of the book and well into the second one.

Now... it's possible he's simply forced himself to overcome his natural aversion to blanks... but he never says that (to my recollection). It would make sense, given that the Distaff is basically a tool for his personal usage. But, it's not in the book, so this is more wild speculation than legitimate analysis.

With the caveat that I haven't finished it, and I've already run into some stupidity in the writing, I'd actually hold up at least the first Ravnor book as superior. Ravnor himself is a much more flawed character than Eisenhorn, and the shift between first and third person actually gives the first person elements some actual context.

All of this said, Eisenhorn is a really good trilogy, and some of the best tie-in fiction I've seen, but it really doesn't rise to the level of best of sci-fi among actual science fiction classics.

Bequin makes a comeback as a major protagonist in a new trilogy, the new novels will also force a confrontation between Eisenhorn and Ravenor. I cannot wait for it, hopefully Dan Abnett will be back on form like he was for Prospero Burns. The Gaunts Ghosts: The lost series was sort of bland.

 

[el derpenburgo]

It's a product of the early 90s and it shows. It was basically D&D for guys and the overt masculinity and violence calls back to the action heroes of the era, your Schwarzeneggers and Stallones, beating up some badass looking bad guys (orcs in space, or elves in space). The whole concept was pretty silly to start off with. The transition into this new era brought about a tonal shift to make the existing factions and characters more grim and severe, where before there was only lip service to the subtext behind all the fighting. It's obviously had mixed results but some people do love writing fluff for their armies, so perhaps there is a richness to it that certain kinds of people get into.

 

[Pharsalus]

The overarching story of the universe is pretty depressing, but it's the stories of individuals in this time of war that create the rich fabric of material that has engrossed so many. I've read the fluff from most of the codex's and really got into the Horus Heresy series of novels, check em out.

 

[samaugsch]

The only thing that really bothers me about Warhammer 40k is that the most important Space Marines don't even bother wearing helmets.

 

[Starke]

As I recall, the message was so powerful it litterally rendered itself undecipherable. All it was was a psychic scream so powerful it blew out the telepathic defenses, the Emperor had put up.

On top of that, the Emperor already had serious reservations with Magnus and his use of psykers and divination. So the message was perceived as an attack, rather than an actual astropathic message.

I've just read The Outcast Dead, which details the exact events (on Terra, not Prospero), and from that I'd say the Emperor just flipped his shit and didn't give Magnus a chance to explain...Magnus said "Hi Dad..." (in a sort of astral projection form he manifested himself in the room on Terra) and the big E told him to GTFO.

Then there ya go. I wasn't really able to get into the Horus Heresy books, mostly due to lack of time, with work. I'll come back to it once the current projects are done... though that could be a while, and it's not the only thing at the back of my perception waiting for that to happen.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Accusation of misogyny are frankly rubbish, serves to demonstrate that your understanding of the material is superfluous. Judging the universe of 40k, which is composed of hundreds of books, by the current model line-up and skimming of wikis is nonsense, and you should know better. Yes, supposedly, only men can undergo treatment to become Astartes - whoopty-do. And only women can give birth in real world - should we accuse it of misogyny as well?

Well, MOSTLY rubbish, but after hearing the infamous Matt Ward penned chronicle of what the Grey Knights did to the Sisters....FOR NO LOGICAL REASON WHATSOEVER....I gotta raise suspicion in his case.

That caught my attention as well and led to a very lively debate amongst my group. When one places themselves inside the context of the mythos, you can understand why the Grey Knights did it.

The Grey Knights are a force specifically trained to fight Chaos in all it's forms. They are provided the knowledge, the training and the "you'll never taint me" kind of determination you won't find in the common Space Marine. Their entire existance is to fight Chaos; at *any* cost.

From the context of the Imperium itself; the Imperium was ready to wipe out the entire populace of Cadia from merely coming into contact with Chaos by virtue of having to kills demons to save both their world and their very lives. That's right, even if you managed to save yourself against a demon and blow it's metaphysical brains out; the Imperium think it's better to end your existence than let you live with the knowledge demons exist. (Keep in mind in Cadias case; the Chapter Master of the Space Wolves was the only thing that spared a few million guards lives because he wouldn't let the Inquisition just purge off the soldiers that managed to survive)

The Grey Knights know the power of Chaos and their affects better than even the Inquisition, and they constantly battle the worst Chaos has to offer. They protect themselves from the taint and affects of Chaos however they can, from charms, incantations, their force of will, their belief in the Emperor, etc.

At some point, the Grey Knights were bound to face a force of power that required additional protection. In this case, the blood of innocents and the souls of the pure. Not knowing how any world and their citizens actually fairs (and considering even Space Marines have fallen to Chaos), you can't deny that when it comes to the Sisters, they are beyond a doubt one of the purest souls when it comes to serving the Emperor (they use faith for gods sake).

So when the situation called for it, the Grey Knights slaughtered the Sisters and used their blood as protection against the demons they have to fight to protect the Imperium. It illustrates the ethical grey area the Grey Knights are forced work from, as well as the horrible sacrifices the Imperium has to make to preserve it's existance. To a Grey Knight, the death of a few devoted servants is an easy decision to make when a world is in danger from corruption.

In the specific story, many of the Sisters were already corrupted, and this taint had affected some of the most pios preists of the Emperor. The Grey Knights could not risk further contamination or risk contamination themselves.

Don't get me wrong, Ward has some pretty trite writing *coughDraigocough*, but let's not forget the Sisters have a weapon called the "Mancatcher" and Slaanesh is... well... I'm not really sure, but usually refered to as a *she*. All things considered, the 40k Universe is equal opportunity.

 

[Deathmageddon]

For the Emprah? I dunno, I've only played Kill Team and Space Marine lol.

 

[Starke]

Bequin makes a comeback as a major protagonist in a new trilogy, the new novels will also force a confrontation between Eisenhorn and Ravenor. I cannot wait for it, hopefully Dan Abnett will be back on form like he was for Prospero Burns. The Gaunts Ghosts: The lost series was sort of bland.

Yeah, I was aware of the general trajectory for a third trilogy in the works. And, after just savaging the Eisenhorn books, it might sound strange, but I am a fan. This is some really good tie in fiction. And I do like that, at least with the Inquisitor books, he seems to be addressing most of his shortcomings as a writer, as he progresses. I certainly wouldn't hold Eisenhorn up as the best of science fiction, but again, for tie in fiction it is shockingly good, almost to the point of being able to stand as competent material in it's own right... almost. It also makes me regret that there aren't any books from the perspective of Amberley Vail, though that's completely unrelated.

If anyone's actually wondering, the 40k in my unread pile at the moment is Ravnor Omnibus (working my way through the first novel now), Matt Ferrer's Enforcer Onmibus, and Gaunt's Ghosts: The Founding.

 

[Lonan]

I think it focuses on the xenophobic, violent, intolerant part of human nature (aliens in entertainment are always, except in space invaders, used to explore human nature) which is what all entertainment ultimately does, because to have a bunch of tolerant people speak politely to each other doesn't bring in enough money. Even in Suits, a non-violent American show about lawyers, people are very confrontational, judgemental, rude, trying to take advantage of each other, being narcissistic, being power-brokers, domineering, etc.

Entertainment requires the more primal parts of our physiology because otherwise it can't hold our attention. An ultra-violent slogan gets people interested.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

I adore the universe.

As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the most complex and deep universes in science fiction.

With the number of factions and faction within faction, the political intrigue, the moral and existential question, it's simply amazing.

And with the amount of games, codexes, books and other material, it's bar none the most [i/]alive[/i] universe I have ever seen.

Furthermore, the hopelessness only adds to it. When a situation is hopeless, it makes the heroism in that situation that much more incredible.

Take Red Dawn for instance (the REAL one, not the new one). Part of what makes that movie so cheesily inspiring is that they really can't win. The best they can hope for is to do some damage. Yet they still fight.

Many people who enjoy 40k say "Yeah, it's cheesy as hell and I love it for that".

Well maybe I just have brain damage, but I always prefer to take things like that seriously.

I certainly wouldn't go that far. I'll admit, I keep coming back because of a trifecta of good games, depth, and humor. There's some really funny stuff in 40k. Ranging from over the top crazy things like the entirety of Ork culture, to more subversive and, weirdly enough, at times, subtle jabs at militarism, bureaucracy, and fatalism.

It can be really funny, and it's a nice to be able to sit back, get some perspective, look at the insanity, and just laugh to let a bit of the steam off sometimes.

I tend to agree with what you are saying.

I do enjoy laughing at the lunacy of things like Ork culture and I like it when there are those subtle little jokes.

I meant I take it seriously in a more broad sense.

I know many 40k fans laugh at the whole universe.

For me, the comedy isn't lost, it just isn't at the forefront of what I enjoy.

 

[Playful Pony]

I used to enjoy the universe and the tabletop game with friends, but I don't really anymore. I've gotten bored with the setting, the races, the endless seas of Ultra Marines (or Space Marines in general, such a crappy faction name btw!) and how my little Tau people's heads manage to dislodge themselves from their bodies even though their IN A DAMNED PLASTIC CASE WITH LITTLE FOAM SQUARES FOR EVERY SINGLE GUY! Be less fragile, please! X3

Star Wars has acutally replaced 40k's place in my heart. Well, SW actually takes up a whole lot more space there than 40k ever did... As with 40k though, you need to learn to ignore the overly shitty parts. Midichlorians? Never heard of it. And who's this "Jar Jar" you keep going on about?

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

snipsville

One big problem.

Grey Knights have long been established to be IMMUNE TO CHAOS EMANATIONS. This was the case in their original fluff, it was repeated again in the Epic 40k rule sets. They don't get corrupted, period, full stop. The artifact wouldn't have done shit to them. It's precisely why their job is to poke at the greater daemon up close with force weaponry while the rest of the battle goes on.

Well... their fluff changes all the time.

Emenations aren't the same thing as corruption. Just because a Grey Knight is immune to the influence, doesn't mean they can't be affected by various taints. A taint or corruption could easily be a flesh eating bacteria that's comprised of microscopic Nurglings. Grey Knights might be immune to "chaos", but they can surely still be "affected" by it; like teeth, and claws, and whatnot. Perhaps the blood of the innocent was merely an anti-biotic.

Given the effets of the corruption influencing sisters themselves, they may have just aired on the side of caution and killed all possibility of said corruption. Like the imperium is known to do; fix a flesh wound by amptutating the limb.

It's not like they don't have a history of wiping out those they work with; "Deeds of Legend" in their Codex. Why would the Sisters be an acception? Think of it this way, is they were truly immune to chaos, why bother with the various spells, ointments, books, scrolls and assorted bling? Seems like it serves some kind of purpose.

 

[MorganL4]

If you want to get into the story of Warhammer 40k you don't play Warhammer 40k...... You play Rouge Trader..... THAT is where the story of the world exists..... If 40k was a video game ( yes I know there are 40k video games) then the tabletop would be the multiplayer and Rouge Trader would be the campaign.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Admittedly this might be due to over-exposure from a friend who won't shut the hell up about it, but I really can't see the appeal of the story of Warhammer 40K. (I emphasize story because the games are pretty fun gameplay wise)

The entire setting seems like a big case of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy].

I read through some wiki pages and listened to my friends and have played enough of the games to know the basic premise and factions; and I couldn't give less of rats ass who wins. 90% of the characters are jackasses and the ones who aren't are probably dead knowing this setting, and that's not getting into how there are no actually "good" or even "meh" characters.

Hell reading the wiki alone made me feel uncomfortable, there's no hope, its overly violent and its practically childish; something an "edgy" thirteen year old would make up.

Not to mention its a tad misogynistic (Such as there being limited female soldiers that aren't part of the female only faction, the eldar or the dark eldar) and obviously caters to younger males. (Something that irks me to no end)

Can someone explain the appeal of this universe to me? Because to me it all seems over the top and plain stupid.

Alright, I'm pretty late to this one, but here's a suggestion for you: read the Horus Heresy series. Start with Nemesis (the 13th book) and then go back to the beginning and read from the first book. Nemesis is what got me into the the universe and maybe it'll do the same for you? I really liked it because you're supposed to know that the heroes fail, so it's like watching a slow-motion train wreck.

There's a lot of neat stuff in that series that you don't get from reading dry wiki articles about all the dudes fighting all the other dudes.

Also, Legion was another really good book in the series, since it shows why the 40k universe is in the state that it is now.