Warhammer 40K's story, how is it even remotely appealing?

Guilherme Zoldan

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I don`t think you people get what Warhammer 40K is about.
Let me put it this way
http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2055/1275122010118.jpg
SPACE WARRIOR NUNS
 

Siege_TF

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No hope?

Even if The Young King and The Star Child are never born, even if the Tau Empire (and Ultramar) gets wiped out by coincsidential large scale invasion, even if every last man, woman, and squig is either dead or enslaved to Chaos there's the Tyranids. They devour all the biomass that's worth devouring, close the rifts in reality (which they are attracted to like moths to a flame) by smothing them with The Shadow, and eventually leave. Like Mass Effect's Reapers, except killing primitive cultures too. Even if there is no hope for humanity there's hope for life as we know it, and reality itself.

On a smaller scale, however, it's got the same appeal as Fallout or maybe STALKER. It's bleak, and everything's a stuglle, but it can get worse, much worse if you don't keep struggling, and once in a while you get a warm beer with your cold can-'o-beans.
 

Lovely Mixture

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These threads get more numerous by the day.
Can you guys at least try to comprehend the existence of people who don`t share your opinions on things and have different taste than you?

To seriously answer your question though, some people enjoy darkness in both as both a visual and mental concept.

The setting asks the question: can humanity live on without the existence of tyranny? Or is tyranny the thing holding humanity together at this point?
 

Syzygy23

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Saviordd1 said:
Admittedly this might be due to over-exposure from a friend who won't shut the hell up about it, but I really can't see the appeal of the story of Warhammer 40K. (I emphasize story because the games are pretty fun gameplay wise)

The entire setting seems like a big case of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy].

I read through some wiki pages and listened to my friends and have played enough of the games to know the basic premise and factions; and I couldn't give less of rats ass who wins. 90% of the characters are jackasses and the ones who aren't are probably dead knowing this setting, and that's not getting into how there are no actually "good" or even "meh" characters.

Hell reading the wiki alone made me feel uncomfortable, there's no hope, its overly violent and its practically childish; something an "edgy" thirteen year old would make up.

Not to mention its a tad misogynistic (Such as there being limited female soldiers that aren't part of the female only faction, the eldar or the dark eldar) and obviously caters to younger males. (Something that irks me to no end)

Can someone explain the appeal of this universe to me? Because to me it all seems over the top and plain stupid.
Which story?

There are HUNDREDS of stories based on WH40K.

Unless it's the SETTING you have a problem with.

Otherwise, to answer your question, go read the Ciaphas Cain novels. They'r the only ones that matter and/or are worth your time.
 

Ethan Bewley

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GunsmithKitten said:
One other thing; 40k is not a young franchise. It's been through many editions and many authors and creative minds. That might have something to do with problems with it.
*cough* Matt Ward *cough*
 

Starke

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Syzygy23 said:
Otherwise, to answer your question, go read the Ciaphas Cain novels. They'r the only ones that matter and/or are worth your time.
Some of Dan Abnett's Inquisitor novels are surprisingly good, actually. :p

Though, if you don't "get" the setting, the Cain novels do probably lay out what's going on most clearly. It's a massive, unrelenting parody of every sci fi cliche you've ever heard dreamed of. Everyone is completely insane, because it's the only way to survive, and when their insanity clashes, hilarity ensues.
 

Shockolate

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DevilWithaHalo said:
Why didn't the Emperor actually listen to the message Magnus sent instead of sending Russ after him?
Because when Magnus sent the message he destroyed the webway path The Emperor was working on.

Said path would circumvent warp travel, allowing humanity to travel freely without danger.

Also, a couple thousand mechanicus adepts were killed.

Pretty sure anyone would be pissed if the cornerstone of the future was destroyed.

Just sayin'.
 

DevilWithaHalo

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Shockolate said:
DevilWithaHalo said:
Why didn't the Emperor actually listen to the message Magnus sent instead of sending Russ after him?
Because when Magnus sent the message he destroyed the webway path The Emperor was working on.

Said path would circumvent warp travel, allowing humanity to travel freely without danger.

Also, a couple thousand mechanicus adepts were killed.

Pretty sure anyone would be pissed if the cornerstone of the future was destroyed.

Just sayin'.
The speculation is part of the fun for me. Sure, the Emperor may have developed the Webway in order to insure humanities future in the idea they wouldn't be dependent on warp travel, but...

1. It was Eldar technology. Wasn't the Imperium at war with the Eldar even then and Imperial decree usually required the utter destruction of anything alien.

2. It was going to be powered by Magnus; to some debate. Was the Emperor just going to ask Magnus to sacrifice himself for the greater good? Keep in mind some of the tactics he used here; this is the same guy that kidnapped his own kids and let their friends die because they didn't operated on his time table.

3. Warp Travel itself didn't, and doesn't make a lick of difference to Chaos. It's emotion and the subconcious psyche that fuels them, not people wandering through their back yard. To quip; building a new freeway over the getto doesn't fix bad drivers.

4. If the Emperor had actually listened to the message, he may have been able to prevent the Istv Massacre and change the course of the Horus Heresy. Perfect illustration of how the Emperor played favorites with his own children.

The whole thing plays out like some sick drama; because everyone's pride blinds them to just taking a moment and thinking about the situation. And who ended up coming out on top of that whole thing? Chaos, ironically amusing.
 

Starke

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Shockolate said:
DevilWithaHalo said:
Why didn't the Emperor actually listen to the message Magnus sent instead of sending Russ after him?
Because when Magnus sent the message he destroyed the webway path The Emperor was working on.

Said path would circumvent warp travel, allowing humanity to travel freely without danger.

Also, a couple thousand mechanicus adepts were killed.

Pretty sure anyone would be pissed if the cornerstone of the future was destroyed.

Just sayin'.
As I recall, the message was so powerful it litterally rendered itself undecipherable. All it was was a psychic scream so powerful it blew out the telepathic defenses, the Emperor had put up.

On top of that, the Emperor already had serious reservations with Magnus and his use of psykers and divination. So the message was perceived as an attack, rather than an actual astropathic message.
 

Rose and Thorn

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I don't know much about Warhammer other than the tabletop game. As far as I know, the lore was just there to back up the awesome action and factions, it isn't a focus point, so it doesn't have to be great.

Of course I know very little about the lore, I would probably find it interesting.
 

Particulate

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Saviordd1 said:
Admittedly this might be due to over-exposure from a friend who won't shut the hell up about it, but I really can't see the appeal of the story of Warhammer 40K. (I emphasize story because the games are pretty fun gameplay wise)

The entire setting seems like a big case of Darkness Induced Audience Apathy [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy].

I read through some wiki pages and listened to my friends and have played enough of the games to know the basic premise and factions; and I couldn't give less of rats ass who wins. 90% of the characters are jackasses and the ones who aren't are probably dead knowing this setting, and that's not getting into how there are no actually "good" or even "meh" characters.

Hell reading the wiki alone made me feel uncomfortable, there's no hope, its overly violent and its practically childish; something an "edgy" thirteen year old would make up.

Not to mention its a tad misogynistic (Such as there being limited female soldiers that aren't part of the female only faction, the eldar or the dark eldar) and obviously caters to younger males. (Something that irks me to no end)

Can someone explain the appeal of this universe to me? Because to me it all seems over the top and plain stupid.

I've played 40k for years and I love the setting but I'll also openly admit that it takes some getting used to. The whole *thing* with 40k is that it is war incarnate. All the honor, glory, hardship, struggle, pain, and fear... FROM THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND. There's factions and sub-factions based on every era of combat from the Archaic to the far future to post apocalyptic. There's armies based on fundamental concepts of fear and terror that mankind could never hope to fathom. And that's the entire draw. The sense of perpetual, continuous struggle against EVERYTHING. If you like some aspect of militaria, from modern combat scenarios to vikings, there is something to be had in 40k. But at the same time that's all it is and much like listening to the same band rock out for hours on end it can give even the most seasoned players a headache eventually.
 
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I adore the universe.

As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the most complex and deep universes in science fiction.

With the number of factions and faction within faction, the political intrigue, the moral and existential question, it's simply amazing.

And with the amount of games, codexes, books and other material, it's bar none the most [i/]alive[/i] universe I have ever seen.

Furthermore, the hopelessness only adds to it. When a situation is hopeless, it makes the heroism in that situation that much more incredible.

Take Red Dawn for instance (the REAL one, not the new one). Part of what makes that movie so cheesily inspiring is that they really can't win. The best they can hope for is to do some damage. Yet they still fight.

Many people who enjoy 40k say "Yeah, it's cheesy as hell and I love it for that".

Well maybe I just have brain damage, but I always prefer to take things like that seriously.

So in conclusion:
DJjaffacake said:


Different people like different things. What seems like a point against it to you, may be a point in its favour to other people.
 

Starke

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Candidus said:
If you really want to understand, take a risk. Spend some money on the Eisenhorn trilogy from the Black Library (unless you're one of those really cool people with exceptionally refined taste who look down on the Black Library... /sarcasm). There is no finer science fiction out there, in my opinion. No superiors at all, only peers.

W40K is written on a lot of levels. It's a multifaceted universe with a huge ensemble of contributors that are relevant to a wide range of audiences. Some are repellant to me. Many are not.
Honestly, I wouldn't go that far. The Eisnehorn trilogy is good, but it's got some flaws.

First off is Eisenhorn himself, in two prongs:

The books are written in first person, and to be honest, it's not Abnett's strong suit. He literally says as much in the introduction. We loose a lot of material over the course of the books because everything is from Eisenhorn's perspective. While it works as a cop out, it also means we're left to infer any character flaws he may actually have because he sure as hell isn't going to put them in his report.

The lack of personal flaws is a pretty serious, and pretty solid problem. It's only in context with the glut of really genuinely badly written protagonists that saturate most media these days that this one gets lost. He is constantly surrounded by more flawed, and to an extent, more interesting inquisitors, while he marches on, the designated hero, accruing scars to demonstrate his prowess. This only gets worse as those scars, injuries, and lost equipment don't really work against him in the long run.

I'd get into serious spoiler territory here, but off hand, thinking of any serious failure and setback he suffers, and you can point to an event usually in the same book, where that new disadvantage actively benefits him.

At the same time we've got Bequin, who goes from being an actual character in the first book, to a random background object that Eisenhorn would like to bang, but can't so he angsts about it... the aversion people feel towards blanks mysteriously vanishes between the events of the first and second book, along with her presence... she does the mother hen thing briefly, and then... stick a fork in her, she's done. She wanders around aimlessly for the rest of the book and well into the second one.

Now... it's possible he's simply forced himself to overcome his natural aversion to blanks... but he never says that (to my recollection). It would make sense, given that the Distaff is basically a tool for his personal usage. But, it's not in the book, so this is more wild speculation than legitimate analysis.

With the caveat that I haven't finished it, and I've already run into some stupidity in the writing, I'd actually hold up at least the first Ravnor book as superior. Ravnor himself is a much more flawed character than Eisenhorn, and the shift between first and third person actually gives the first person elements some actual context.

All of this said, Eisenhorn is a really good trilogy, and some of the best tie-in fiction I've seen, but it really doesn't rise to the level of best of sci-fi among actual science fiction classics.
 

Starke

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Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
I adore the universe.

As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the most complex and deep universes in science fiction.

With the number of factions and faction within faction, the political intrigue, the moral and existential question, it's simply amazing.

And with the amount of games, codexes, books and other material, it's bar none the most [i/]alive[/i] universe I have ever seen.

Furthermore, the hopelessness only adds to it. When a situation is hopeless, it makes the heroism in that situation that much more incredible.

Take Red Dawn for instance (the REAL one, not the new one). Part of what makes that movie so cheesily inspiring is that they really can't win. The best they can hope for is to do some damage. Yet they still fight.

Many people who enjoy 40k say "Yeah, it's cheesy as hell and I love it for that".

Well maybe I just have brain damage, but I always prefer to take things like that seriously.
I certainly wouldn't go that far. I'll admit, I keep coming back because of a trifecta of good games, depth, and humor. There's some really funny stuff in 40k. Ranging from over the top crazy things like the entirety of Ork culture, to more subversive and, weirdly enough, at times, subtle jabs at militarism, bureaucracy, and fatalism.

It can be really funny, and it's a nice to be able to sit back, get some perspective, look at the insanity, and just laugh to let a bit of the steam off sometimes.
 

Augustine

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Drama. War drama. As Aristotle described it, the pleasure audience derives from watching the death and despair of drama is through the feeling of catharsis. 40k does that on the grandest scale imaginable.

There's little hope to be found in the 40k universe, with ignorance or blind faith being the only means of escape for it's denizens.

40k universe is all about exaggeration: war, suffering, faith, hope. Tanks shoot shells as big as a passenger car. Sieges that last 7 years after all signs of life of the defenders were lost. Determination in the face of invincible horrors of the universe...

Accusation of misogyny are frankly rubbish, serves to demonstrate that your understanding of the material is superfluous. Judging the universe of 40k, which is composed of hundreds of books, by the current model line-up and skimming of wikis is nonsense, and you should know better. Yes, supposedly, only men can undergo treatment to become Astartes - whoopty-do. And only women can give birth in real world - should we accuse it of misandry as well?

For me, 40k, with all it's flaws (and it has many), holds much appeal because how different and rich it is. I have yet to find something to compare it with.
 

Karma168

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I think it's part to do with the ability to create whatever you want. I've made my own chapter of space marines, with a backstory, a motivation, different colour schemes for all the different groups within it and named characters that add what I want to what is essentially a pile of painted plastic. Fair do's to those that are just in it for the gaming/painting side but or me they are pointless without a story; what's the point of designing, building and painting an epic model if you don't come up with an epic story to go with it.

That's what the OTT 40k lore does, it lets you create an absolutely batshit insane story of how you're guy is so powerful he can wipe out an entire army just by giving them a funny look, and no matter what you do it's never 'too far' as the canon stuff is even more mental (seriously, one guy carves someone's name into a demon princes heart!)


But this is the most basic stuff in the codices, it's written specifically so that nothing ever changes, sure such and such a planet may get conquered by chaos but the imperium will just take it back, it's a perpetual stalemate to keep the games going. Because nothing changes it gives the Black Library authors an unrivalled scope to work with, they can do anything because in the end it's meaningless in the wider scheme of things. What other universe allows authors to do that?
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Starke said:
As I recall, the message was so powerful it litterally rendered itself undecipherable. All it was was a psychic scream so powerful it blew out the telepathic defenses, the Emperor had put up.

On top of that, the Emperor already had serious reservations with Magnus and his use of psykers and divination. So the message was perceived as an attack, rather than an actual astropathic message.
I've just read The Outcast Dead, which details the exact events (on Terra, not Prospero), and from that I'd say the Emperor just flipped his shit and didn't give Magnus a chance to explain...Magnus said "Hi Dad..." (in a sort of astral projection form he manifested himself in the room on Terra) and the big E told him to GTFO.