WarZ Removed From Steam

[MrPhyntch]

People make this argument as if it is has any weight whatsoever. If you pay for a game purely to play a user-made mod that's your own problem. Whether you bought it for DayZ or not, DayZ is not the product you bought.

First of all, you don't understand the argument. I believe I already made it abundantly clear that DayZ has the convenient position of not being the product in the package.

The argument is that aside from a technical distinction; DayZ and WarZ are arguably similar games.

Both are unfinished, both borrow heavily from other games, both have major glitches and technical issues.

When DayZ is responsible for selling millions of copies of ARMA and people are unsatisfied, the gray area between the product and the mod makes this OK.

When WarZ tries to do essentially the same thing, but in a stand-alone package- it's taken off of Steam.

I think this is kind of hypocritical of Valve and shows that they genuinely do not give a shit. They'll take people's money to buy copies of ARMA knowing full well they're going to be playing DayZ; and they can hide behind the mod distinction and say, sorry, no refunds.

But when someone else goes to cash in on a stand alone platform, suddenly Valve is some great moral crusader? Bullshit. If the WarZ devs had instead tried to get an app on steam that was literally just a launcher and sold it for whatever; they could have offered the actual game as a mod ala DayZ and valve would happily have kept your money.

It's all bullshit.

Does DayZ have:

Microtransactions after paying the box price?
Hostile terrain that will kill you from looking at it funny and is unintuitive to navigate?
Completely empty maps that have like 2 spots with anything good all camped by bandits?
Convenient ways to die due to utter bullshit, thus sucking more money out of your wallet so that you can be halfway competitive again? (seriously, it's like if LoL made you lose the skin every time you lost a match with that champ, forcing you to rebuy it if you really wanted it, and making skins give significant stat bonuses)

No? Well Okay, so there are some bad things about it, but does DayZ offer:

A single map that is half to 3/4 the size of what is advertised?
Sprint speeds that are slower than walking in the competitor while making the length and cooldown ridiculous?
A legal backbone that is LITERALLY COPY-PASTED FROM ANOTHER SOURCE, COMPLETE WITH SOURCE-SPECIFIC LEGAL MENTIONS NOT REMOVED?

Say what you want about the quality of the games, the #1 issue most people have is with the vampiric business practices, literally designed to fuck over anyone who doesn't want to spend wads of cash, all while under-serving its advertisements (illegal in pretty much any country this is relevant in) and being dicks when called out on it. This is why I'm glad to see this happen. Not because the game is any bad, but because the developers are douchebags in every sense of the word, and then some.

Oh, and a reminder for those out there who didn't already know: the lead developer of this was also the lead developer for Big Rigs Over the Road Racing.

 

[maturin]

It's all bullshit.

It's decidedly not bullshit when doings things any differently is a logical, legal and logistical impossibility.

Plus, Day Z isn't broken and provides no grounds for refunds except in this vast sea of entitled whiners incapable of making informed decision.

The only equivalency between it and the War Z besides the glitchiness of its workaround mod-script nature is in your own antipathy. And the 'borrowing from other games' comment is amusing, as if there's no difference between charging money for cannibalized assets and proof of concept mod that prematurely took off into a major phenomenon despite the creator's intentions.

 

[lacktheknack]

People make this argument as if it is has any weight whatsoever. If you pay for a game purely to play a user-made mod that's your own problem. Whether you bought it for DayZ or not, DayZ is not the product you bought.

First of all, you don't understand the argument. I believe I already made it abundantly clear that DayZ has the convenient position of not being the product in the package.

The argument is that aside from a technical distinction; DayZ and WarZ are arguably similar games.

Both are unfinished, both borrow heavily from other games, both have major glitches and technical issues.

When DayZ is responsible for selling millions of copies of ARMA and people are unsatisfied, the gray area between the product and the mod makes this OK.

When WarZ tries to do essentially the same thing, but in a stand-alone package- it's taken off of Steam.

I think this is kind of hypocritical of Valve and shows that they genuinely do not give a shit. They'll take people's money to buy copies of ARMA knowing full well they're going to be playing DayZ; and they can hide behind the mod distinction and say, sorry, no refunds.

But when someone else goes to cash in on a stand alone platform, suddenly Valve is some great moral crusader? Bullshit. If the WarZ devs had instead tried to get an app on steam that was literally just a launcher and sold it for whatever; they could have offered the actual game as a mod ala DayZ and valve would happily have kept your money.

It's all bullshit.

Whatever, dude.

You know just as well as me that if people made as big of a deal about DayZ being crap as they did for this one, Valve would look twice and at least consider refunding. You know just as well as I do that that hasn't happened, because people like DayZ. However, you ALSO know that War Z used false advertising, horrifically anti-consumer design decisions and released a NON FUNCTIONING PRODUCT AS A PURCHASEABLE PRODUCT WITH NO INDICATION THAT IT'S UNFINISHED.

http://dayzmod.com/

Right there.

Download DayZ Alpha Version 1.7.4.4.

Valve is entirely in the right in their actions, and there's not a damn thing they could have done to please you short of offering refunds FOR NO REASON to the TINY AMOUNT OF PEOPLE unsatisfied with a GODDAMNED ALPHA MOD on a completely irrelevant game.

So, to quote Woodsey, get a grip.

 

[xDarc]

The big problem War Z has is it's assload of false information.

So prove it and court and sue them. It's pretty clear that Valve only acted to protect itself and nothing more. They didn't have to do anything about it. It's not their responsibility to verify the publisher's claims. It could still land them in court, so they pull the plug in response to all the unsubstantiated complaints from I wonder who... the worst gaming community I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. DayZ fans.

The thing is, I don't care about WarZ. I have no intention of playing it. But it pisses me off that people want to think Valve is doing this out of their own nobility. The only difference I see between the two games is that one is a mod, and hides behind a legal gray area; while the other made the mistake of releasing an actual product.

 

[xDarc]

However, you ALSO know that War Z used false advertising, horrifically anti-consumer design decisions and released a NON FUNCTIONING PRODUCT AS A PURCHASEABLE PRODUCT WITH NO INDICATION THAT IT'S UNFINISHED.

That is not a fact, that is your opinion. It will become a fact when a court of law decides it is a fact. False advertising is a subjective claim. Most companies do not do anything without a court order, or fear of a court order.

When have you ever heard of somebody suing a game maker for false advertising because the map wasn't as big as they said? It's just DayZ community trolling away, doing what they do best. Meanwhile DayZ gets to operate in a legal gray area because it's just a mod and not the actual game for sale, but everyone knows that all those ARMA sales are DayZ players.

It's comically hypocritical that Valve only gives a shit when they think it could come back on them, but they'll gladly take your money when they are certain you have no legal recourse.

 

[maturin]

You're repeating yourself. Day Z gives no grounds for refunds, much less legal complaints. There is no legal grey area, just blinding white. If all those people bought ArmA 2 to use as toilet paper and christmas presents for terrorists, it wouldn't make a whit of difference.

In this case, the false advertising is as simple as numbers. 'Subjective!' Why post such trash?

Whether it's enforceable under the law is a question for courts. But it is blatantly dishonest and exploitative by even the dismal standards of the videogame market, everyone is calling them out on it, and people are refreshed to see a company on their side for once, having the same standards of consumer service.

 

[lacktheknack]

However, you ALSO know that War Z used false advertising, horrifically anti-consumer design decisions and released a NON FUNCTIONING PRODUCT AS A PURCHASEABLE PRODUCT WITH NO INDICATION THAT IT'S UNFINISHED.

That is not a fact, that is your opinion. It will become a fact when a court of law decides it is a fact. False advertising is a subjective claim. Most companies do not do anything without a court order, or fear of a court order.

When have you ever heard of somebody suing a game maker for false advertising because the map wasn't as big as they said? It's just DayZ community trolling away, doing what they do best. Meanwhile DayZ gets to operate in a legal gray area because it's just a mod and not the actual game for sale, but everyone knows that all those ARMA sales are DayZ players.

It's comically hypocritical that Valve only gives a shit when they think it could come back on them, but they'll gladly take your money when they are certain you have no legal recourse.

You can observe in dozens of videos that the game is fundamentally broken, as well as receive confirmation from everyone (including the developers) that servers cap at 50 players (in contrast with "up to 100 players").

There's no way to spin this as anything other than false advertising and premature release, courts be damned.

It's "not fact" because a jury hasn't declared it so? And somehow I'M the unthinking sheep (you've implied this, don't deny it, you've lumped me in with the "trolling DayZ community" that I've never even interacted with) because I don't immediately hate Valve for doing something right? I thought the POINT of being free-thinking was not having everything defined for you, but being able to call them as you see them.

And it's not even REMOTELY hypocritical that they won't refund you for ArmA2, a FUNCTIONING GAME with correct advertising. Good God, man, take off the hate blinders and SEE.

You'd make a better case saying "the players of War Z shouldn't expect refunds, because they were gullible enough to buy a game from Sergey Titov, the head of Big fecking Rigs: Over The Road Racing".

 

[xDarc]

You're repeating yourself. Day Z gives no grounds for refunds, much less legal complaints.

In this case, the false advertising is as simple as numbers. 'Subjective!' Why post such trash?

Yes, DayZ gives no grounds for refunds, except it is made by a guy who works for the company that makes ARMA, and we all know that he is getting paid. Hiding behind a mod to make money. That's trash.

On the other hand, someone else tries to throw their hat in the ring and the DayZ community is harassing Valve from the get go to get it pulled because the map size isn't what they said.

You can sit here and tell me all day long about the distinctions between the mod, between the product, that the game isn't what they said it was- but that's not up to you or valve, that's up to a judge and lawyers. I don't really care who said what until there is court decision.

Point is this- this is nothing but a series of dick moves on the part of the DayZ community and Valve. Don't really see any winners here, just a lot of whining all around. This is probably the most I've ever had people jump up my ass in one thread to make a very simple point.

 

[Vizanto]

Well because your point was off-base and wrong. Since you seemed to be conflating this refund with an issue of quality as opposed to false advertising, which War Z clearly did and that Valve ignored until now. Plus, it's not just the Valve and Day Z community the but fucking War Z community itself! People felt ripped the fuck off because they were promised a very clear set of features that did not even exist, to which the developer could only answer "Well you might have just imagined all that shit we clearly stated in our Steam summary."

And again, Day Z didn't make any fucking promises to the consumer, it was a mod to an established game and people bought Arma 2 for the simple matter of word of mouth on Dayz, big. fucking. difference. Big fucking difference from a game that says it's gonna be this and then blatantly isn't. It'd be like is Bethseda promised that Skyrim would be twice as big as the Oblivion world but on Day 1 only made it about the size of Whiterun and said that the bigger world would come later and that people read too much into "It'll be twice as big as Oblivion."

In short, you made a bad point, and your ass was rightly jumped up.

 

[nexus]

Yeah, Valve really needs to actually look at games before they release them on Steam.

Not necessarily.

Best thing to do is just let things roll, because people can like just about anything. If it's completely and utterly unplayable, then sure.. but otherwise.. If they were that authoritarian about it, they might let stuff like "Day Z" hit the wall because it's "not finished", or even Minecraft. If you get my drift.

It's hard to know what people will like. There could have been a strange cult following for War Z, but there wasn't.. and people complained, so down comes the hammer.

 

[lacktheknack]

You're repeating yourself. Day Z gives no grounds for refunds, much less legal complaints.

In this case, the false advertising is as simple as numbers. 'Subjective!' Why post such trash?

Yes, DayZ gives no grounds for refunds, except it is made by a guy who works for the company that makes ARMA, and we all know that he is getting paid. Hiding behind a mod to make money. That's trash.

On the other hand, someone else tries to throw their hat in the ring and the DayZ community is harassing Valve from the get go to get it pulled because the map size isn't what they said.

You can sit here and tell me all day long about the distinctions between the mod, between the product, that the game isn't what they said it was- but that's not up to you or valve, that's up to a judge and lawyers. I don't really care who said what until there is court decision.

Point is this- this is nothing but a series of dick moves on the part of the DayZ community and Valve. Don't really see any winners here, just a lot of whining all around. This is probably the most I've ever had people jump up my ass in one thread to make a very simple point.

It's because you whinge about how it's all Valve's fault one second, and tell us you "don't care" and that it's in the court's hands the next, all while refusing to acknowledge simple facts in the process.

You're not making a simple point, you're just making no point at all. You're being antagonistic and contrarion, and we can't see a reason for it other than "because I can".

 

[GamingAwesome1]

So prove it and court and sue them. It's pretty clear that Valve only acted to protect itself and nothing more. They didn't have to do anything about it. It's not their responsibility to verify the publisher's claims.

I'm going to stop you there.

Yes, it is absolutely the vendor's responsibility to ensure that unfinished games and dishonest under-handed business practices are not sold on their service. You can't seriously be suggesting they're absolved of all responsibility, right?

If a physical retailer sold you a broken product which you bought because the manufacturer had lied about its features, the physical retailer is pretty obviously at some sort of obligation to take some responsibility when people start complaining.

Valve absolutely should verify the publisher's claims before they start putting games on the service, the alternative is that Valve just goes "Lol nope, not our problem" when a publisher pulls something that's basically false advertising.

 

[hazabaza1]

Yeah, Valve really needs to actually look at games before they release them on Steam.

Not necessarily.

Best thing to do is just let things roll, because people can like just about anything. If it's completely and utterly unplayable, then sure.. but otherwise.. If they were that authoritarian about it, they might let stuff like "Day Z" hit the wall because it's "not finished", or even Minecraft. If you get my drift.

It's hard to know what people will like. There could have been a strange cult following for War Z, but there wasn't.. and people complained, so down comes the hammer.

But DayZ wasn't released on Steam.

And if they're not checking and denying stuff, they should at least find out if a game is in any sort of pre-release stage and specify accordingly.

 

[The Lunatic]

For what it's worth, you have to pay to get on Steam.

So, yes, I can see why Steam wouldn't be desperate to prolong the approval process.

However, them doing this is essentially saying "No, we don't want your money for this product".

Which, is actually really impressive, and if anything, I'd probably say it's almost a negative.

After all, who is Steam to tell me what I'm allowed to spend my money upon frivolously.

Perhaps there's more to this however.

I suppose, giving Steam was being looked at to take responsibility for it, and not those spending the money on a game they haven't looked into, it's the easiest option to just appease the people and avoid bad press.

 

[nexus]

And if they're not checking and denying stuff, they should at least find out if a game is in any sort of pre-release stage and specify accordingly.

I know, I'm just citing examples of what could theoretically get shitcanned were it to be "greenlit" on Steam. Sometimes a flash cult fanbase wraps an iron curtain around an otherwise awful game, and it progresses into something decent and gains popularity. Other times, well..

I think the way Valve does things is probably spot on.

 

[bafrali]

Valve has not only enforced quality control, but a refund agreement as well?

Valve received 50 Light Side Points

Let's see where they are now...

Light Side: 1050
Dark Side:8220

Okay, so they're getting there. Baby steps.

even though I love how you treat valve as darksided, what gave them so many ds and so few ls if you don't mine me asking?

That said I will take any excuse to hate on valve, if for no other than than there overrated and they worse fans of any game developer, yes worse than bioware, I hate valvies that much.

Though I have only played portal 2 and TF 2, I can say their games are good, but there just that; good, not much else to say.

Any before anyone asks why I hate valvies, lets just say they rub me the wrong way, often, and in a bad manner.

Don't you know. Every one has heard the story of Bhalspawn whose parents was shot by Gabe Newell in the dark. Then He became THE PLUMBERMAN. Protector of the innocent pipes who are opressed by the corrupt Valve.

OT: People are seriously making up conspiracy theories about this refund? HAHA funny guys

 

[xDarc]

So prove it and court and sue them. It's pretty clear that Valve only acted to protect itself and nothing more. They didn't have to do anything about it. It's not their responsibility to verify the publisher's claims.

I'm going to stop you there.

Yes, it is absolutely the vendor's responsibility to ensure that unfinished games and dishonest under-handed business practices are not sold on their service. You can't seriously be suggesting they're absolved of all responsibility, right?

If a physical retailer sold you a broken product which you bought because the manufacturer had lied about its features, the physical retailer is pretty obviously at some sort of obligation to take some responsibility when people start complaining.

Except legally, it's really not their responsibility. It's not Wal-Mart's responsibility to check for lead paint in toys they sell, it's not Best Buy's responsibility to make sure every DVD box actually has a DVD in it, etc. The vendor is let off the hook time and again. Ultimately it is the consumer's responsibility to take issue with the manufacturer, or pursue legal means when that fails. This isn't any different for video games.

 

[xDarc]

its no different from the other hundreds of other mods released for arma 2 except its well known.

What DayZ? DayZ is made by a guy who works for the company that makes ARMA. The difference between the guy who makes DayZ and the guys who make all those other mods, is that this guy is getting paid. How this is just allowed to function in a gray space and everyone is OK with that is beyond me.

If I were the guys releasing WarZ, I would have just released an old game and offered the real game as a free optional mod. Or even just offer the launcher as full-priced game. Boom, you are now absolved of any responsibility ala Bohemia. Afterall, it's OK when they do it.

 

[AlotFirst]

You know what, I don't actually feel like argueing with anyone on why removing possibly to buy the WarZ from Steam is a good decision. The evidence is out there and justice has been served.