Which is why feminists aren't encouraging rape threats against male gamers. They're encouraging us to examine our behavior and try earnestly to understand our position of privilege. That's not so rough.Doclector said:
What do people actually want male gamers to be like?
- Thread starter Doclector
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It'd be fine if I could bring myself to believe that privilege isn't a word that harms people, isn't a word that people have started to use simply to shit on other people and belittle them. I've been shit on through my life by a veritable rainbow of human existence, men, women, Black people, White people, Asian people, mixed race people, disabled people, able-bodied people, not once has my position as a straight white male bought me mercy. So I struggle to believe that. I'd just go along with it if I didn't believe it was being used to hurt people, but quite frankly I do.peruvianskys said:
Do you get extra attention when you go shopping to make sure you are not a shoplifter? Do people scramble to lock the car door when you walk past their car at the gas station? Have the police ever accused you of being a prostitute and threaten to arrest you on the way home from school because of the place you were walking through?Doclector said:
Privilege doesn't bring you mercy, it brings you not getting some of the shit a different person might.
From your posts I get the impression that you are so totally alone and the whole world is actively singling you out for targeted harassment to the point where random people you do not know are going to photograph you buying things and follow you home to get your personal information and then spread this data on-line so people can I guess harass you.
You keep saying that everyone "shits" on you. Can you clarify what that means? Is it that they say things about you? Do they assault you? do they insult things you like?
all of the above. Not so much the physical anymore, but they're still saying stuff about me. But fuck it all. I ain't getting nowhere except having more insults thrown at me here. Nothing's ever going to be fixed, we're just going to keep going on a magic roundabout of shit slinging.minkus_draconus said:
All this talk of privilege. OP, everyone's privileged.
You have access to clean water? Privileged
You live in a politically stable country? Privileged
You live free of being murdered for your religion or lack of? Privileged.
So don't let this talk of privilege get you down because we all are. The mere fact that we have the free time to talk about arguably irrelevant issues on an internet forum shows how privileged we are.
Just enjoy playing the games you want. Don't let anyone put you down for what you enjoy.
You have access to clean water? Privileged
You live in a politically stable country? Privileged
You live free of being murdered for your religion or lack of? Privileged.
So don't let this talk of privilege get you down because we all are. The mere fact that we have the free time to talk about arguably irrelevant issues on an internet forum shows how privileged we are.
Just enjoy playing the games you want. Don't let anyone put you down for what you enjoy.
First off, I'd like to welcome you to feeling a very small fraction of what females (gamer or not) feel and have felt on a daily basis for the past several thousand years in just about every part of the world.Doclector said:
Second, yes, you ARE supposed to just not talk about it at all. If Quinn had been a man people would have long since finished sweeping this under the rug and started giving him pats on the back behind closed doors for being a 'dawg'. And no, 'journalistic integrity' isn't even remotely what this is all about. Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE knows that sexual favors are regularly traded behind the scenes in any business, but especially ones as cut throat and nihilistic as journalism. Same situation as the Edward Snowden shtick; Is Snowden a good person? We dunno. Is he just seeking attention? Maybe. Is anyone surprised by his revelation that the US government is spying on us? Not even a little. Do we care who or if he slept with anyone to gain access to those files? Not even a little.
So then why is Quinn's love life such a huge deal? Well quite frankly because men are assholes to women. I could cite examples all over for this, but fact of the matter is if I need to cite you examples for something this obvious, you won't hear this argument anyway. If you want to stop feeling so bad about being a 'nice guy', then stop making excuses for misogyny and actually just leave Quinn alone. You'd be pretty nasty too if you got the same bile spewed at you that women get for merely showing up on the internet, let alone having a life on it.
You really don't think that your being white and being male has not conferred institutional privilege on you at any point during your life?Doclector said:
Please, read the famous White Privilege Checklist from Peggy McIntosh and tell me none of these apply:
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.
To me, it is to possess the ability to tell when a criticism is not aimed at you.
I never took personal offence to all these condemnations of the gamers involved in the recent debacle. I know that when MovieBob or whoever is complaining about asshole self-elected defenders of videogames, they aren't referring to every gamer that ever existed, or the likes of me, but only to those horrible people who think harassment is okay. When I see articles about the "Death of gamers", I can tell from actually reading the article that the negativity is directed against a specific group of gamers who deserve condemnation, rather than all gamers. The people that are getting offended by the sort of articles I've read, I tend to see them as either severely lacking in the reading comprehension skills necessary to digest what has actually being written, or that they doth protest too much.
I never took personal offence to all these condemnations of the gamers involved in the recent debacle. I know that when MovieBob or whoever is complaining about asshole self-elected defenders of videogames, they aren't referring to every gamer that ever existed, or the likes of me, but only to those horrible people who think harassment is okay. When I see articles about the "Death of gamers", I can tell from actually reading the article that the negativity is directed against a specific group of gamers who deserve condemnation, rather than all gamers. The people that are getting offended by the sort of articles I've read, I tend to see them as either severely lacking in the reading comprehension skills necessary to digest what has actually being written, or that they doth protest too much.
Except Leigh's article also talked shit about gamers who also wait in lines for a game to come out.maninahat said:
The hell is wrong with that? Are we not allowed to be excited about the things we like? Why can't we identify ourselves by the things we enjoy? Sorry but I don't buy "Oh when I said Gamers are dead I don't mean YOU gamers." Leigh has made it pretty clear she hates the industry she works in, so I see no reason to give her the benefit of the doubt.
Sure, those are more important issues. But there's also very little most people can do about that.kyp275 said:
Most people aren't in a position to stop murdering or imprisoning people, they are in a position to think about what ganes they choose to buy.
Indeed, which is why I did say that it doesn't invalidate their points, but regardless, that's how I feel about their political look on videogames.thaluikhain said:
Seriously, if someone came up to me in a game store and tells me to "check my privilege" because I'm buying Dragon's Crown, I'd just tell them to check their not-homeless privilege and go down to the closest homeless shelter and actually make some meaningful differences.
The closest thing I have seen to those kind of people are the snobby(insert car platform here) owners who thinks their car is the best thing since sliced bread, and everything else are crap.
Some corrections, it's not "allegedly", it's confirmed by all parties involved. Second, it's Nathan Grayson, and the reason he hasn't been talked about much is because there isn't much to talk about - he more or less went dark and stopped talking all-together. And really, not sure why you think he wasn't targeted - why do you think there was all that anger towards Kotaku which led them to change their patreon policy?Jonathan Hornsby said:
@Doclector
May I ask you this? Where are you going where you receive this:
You seem to take it personally. Far more personally than I have, though I am a white, male gamer. So fine, if it upsets you that much, don't read those articles. I think Kotaku is rubbish anyways because their articles have demonstrated very little understanding of the Starcraft scene. So any negative opinion of me, by them is moot as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me. Now, if you are getting pm's directed specifically at you, that's a different matter. But the internet is a big place, and you needn't read every article posted in it, especially from garbage sites. Or as one of our old admins said back in 2011:
May I ask you this? Where are you going where you receive this:
Are you receiving comments directed specifically at you? Or pm's/ tweets? Or is this a reaction to a series of articles addressed broadly? Because if you feel this upset over articles, you may just not want to read those websites. I hang out at Team Liquid because its awesome and Escapist because of Shamus Young, and I'm amused by the weekly Anita thread. So I'm blithely unaware of any sort of comment war going on at 4chan or tumblr, or even twitter for that matter. I might hop on to one of these GG streams, but its usually too intense for me to be bothered, so I'll skip that to. Thing is, I see a lot of people saying 1) don't be a jerk and your fine and 2) if you are not jerk, then don't worry about the articles, they aren't about you. But from your reaction in the thread, that does not seem sufficient for you.
You seem to take it personally. Far more personally than I have, though I am a white, male gamer. So fine, if it upsets you that much, don't read those articles. I think Kotaku is rubbish anyways because their articles have demonstrated very little understanding of the Starcraft scene. So any negative opinion of me, by them is moot as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me. Now, if you are getting pm's directed specifically at you, that's a different matter. But the internet is a big place, and you needn't read every article posted in it, especially from garbage sites. Or as one of our old admins said back in 2011:
what area do you live in? Because seriously, I've never heard anybody I know suffering from at least 48 of these. The occasional racist bastard, true, we have th edl, bnp, and ukip, but nobody with half a brain takes them seriously anymore, so they have about as much real power as a cabbage.peruvianskys said:
i do agree there. He should have taken the majority of the fire here, even after Quinn's actions following the scandal like what happened with the fine young capitalists. Honestly I try not to engage with gamer gate itself, corrupt assholes will be corrupt assholes, ain't right, but it'll always happen, and I hate the assumption that it's a conspiracy, when to my eyes, if the allegations are true, it's just a loose handful of assholes being assholes. What concerns me is the anti gamer backlash.Jonathan Hornsby said:
not around my area. There's a local edl group that's basically just viewed as the town jester such is their utter powerlessness. Guess living in a uni town with people coming from all across the world on a yearly basis does wonders for racial tolerance.Baffle said:
Right, I've disabled quote notifications for the time being. Not particularly noble, but after ten pages with no progress, I want to be able to check the news without having my attention drawn to another reply. Honestly, I think I have come out of this with even less understanding than I came in with.
NOTE: I've not read this 10-page thread before getting my thoughts down here. I simply don't have the time, and honestly I'm just thinking out loud about some of my experiences.
Okay, while I identify as gender-fluid, I am basically a straight, white, male gamer. I've been playing videogames for about 25 years. And you know what? When people talk about toxic male gamer culture, I know they're not talking about me. I think that goes without saying, since the described behavior doesn't match my perception of myself. Then since they're not making absolute claims about all male gamers, they must be talking about other male gamers. I have no reason to get defensive because I'm not under attack.
Compare this to how some people responded to the White Guy Defense Force from Critical Miss. That comic satirized behavior displayed by a subset of white men, and some people were quick to become irrationally defensive: simultaneously claiming that they didn't belong to that group and acting like the criticism was aimed at them personally. (And of course there was also a non-zero number of people who became outraged whilst proving with their behavior that they were in fact part of the satirized subset, but honestly I don't give a crap about those people in this context.)
So obviously the behavior I described in the first paragraph is what feels like the natural and "right" response to me, but the behavior in the second paragraph feels entirely alien... and yet it's something that keeps popping up in and around this #GamerGate movement:
- People being upset because they feel targeted by accusations that are clearly, in my mind, not aimed at them.
- People who are under the impression that criticism aimed at problems in the larger gamer culture is aimed at every single individual who identifies as a gamer, rather than being aimed at the actual problems and those that perpetuate them.
I don't get it, really.
Maybe it's a matter of ego.
Maybe it's for the same reason that I'm unable to integrate the local (or any, really) sports teams into my identity.
*shrugs*
All I know is a lot of people would benefit from not getting so goddamn riled up all the time. Especially by thirdhand information they haven't fact-checked. And that sending emotionally charged messages to people is rarely a good idea.
Christ.Doclector said:
Okay, while I identify as gender-fluid, I am basically a straight, white, male gamer. I've been playing videogames for about 25 years. And you know what? When people talk about toxic male gamer culture, I know they're not talking about me. I think that goes without saying, since the described behavior doesn't match my perception of myself. Then since they're not making absolute claims about all male gamers, they must be talking about other male gamers. I have no reason to get defensive because I'm not under attack.
Compare this to how some people responded to the White Guy Defense Force from Critical Miss. That comic satirized behavior displayed by a subset of white men, and some people were quick to become irrationally defensive: simultaneously claiming that they didn't belong to that group and acting like the criticism was aimed at them personally. (And of course there was also a non-zero number of people who became outraged whilst proving with their behavior that they were in fact part of the satirized subset, but honestly I don't give a crap about those people in this context.)
So obviously the behavior I described in the first paragraph is what feels like the natural and "right" response to me, but the behavior in the second paragraph feels entirely alien... and yet it's something that keeps popping up in and around this #GamerGate movement:
- People being upset because they feel targeted by accusations that are clearly, in my mind, not aimed at them.
- People who are under the impression that criticism aimed at problems in the larger gamer culture is aimed at every single individual who identifies as a gamer, rather than being aimed at the actual problems and those that perpetuate them.
I don't get it, really.
Maybe it's a matter of ego.
Maybe it's for the same reason that I'm unable to integrate the local (or any, really) sports teams into my identity.
*shrugs*
All I know is a lot of people would benefit from not getting so goddamn riled up all the time. Especially by thirdhand information they haven't fact-checked. And that sending emotionally charged messages to people is rarely a good idea.
OP Welcome to the world of stereotypes. As a male gamer you have to constantly prove you're not a raging, homophobic, misogynist, sexually frustrated 14 year old. Just like every African American has to constantly prove he's not a drug addict or a criminal. Just like every woman has to constantly prove she's not an emotion ruled mess. Just like every homosexual has to constantly prove they're not going to try and slip it to you or your kids.
The world is a sick sad place. Best start getting use to it. It's not going to change any time soon.
The only thing you CAN do is learn from it and try to think outside stereotypes. Which most people don't do even when they're the outraged victim of said being stereotyped. Most people get pissed, rage, cry, throw a fit, then turn right fuckin around and do it to someone else without a second thought. And, when you point it out to them, they go "Oh! Well... MY stereotyping of that person is perfectly valid!"
The world is a sick sad place. Best start getting use to it. It's not going to change any time soon.
The only thing you CAN do is learn from it and try to think outside stereotypes. Which most people don't do even when they're the outraged victim of said being stereotyped. Most people get pissed, rage, cry, throw a fit, then turn right fuckin around and do it to someone else without a second thought. And, when you point it out to them, they go "Oh! Well... MY stereotyping of that person is perfectly valid!"