What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[NiPah]

Here's the thing though, "this is sexist" almost never gets met with a response of "You're a feminazi!"

No, it's more often rape and death threats.

Less flippantly, what's the instinctive response to being called out on bad behaviour? That something they've long seen as perfectly fine is actually a problem?

Nobody enjoys having that pointed out.

Every time, every fucking time some one brings up being angry over people being too over zealous in gender politics or that they feel they have been wronged by the social justice movement the fucking "well people are getting death threats and rape threats".

What good does that do?

Do you think it adds validity to your points that some people have been threatened? All the sudden those "bad behaviors" are labeled in the same post and someone who brought up rape and death threats...

Oh you like games with boobs? People have been threatened with rape and death. You might have even done it! Or you haven't been vocal enough about your denunciation of it!

Oh you don't agree with games having more female protagonists? People have been threatened with rape and death. You might have even done it! Or you haven't been vocal enough about your denunciation of it!

Oh you think more females are casual gamers and don't play real games? People have been threatened with rape and death. You might have even done it! Or you haven't been vocal enough about your denunciation of it!

Look, for a second here just look, you're shooting yourself in the foot because all of these arguments are relatively stupid and easy to debunk without bringing up how people have threatened to rape and kill women. I understand its horrid and should be brought to the public's attention, but don't use it as a talking point when ever you can't be arsed to come up with an actual argument.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Look, for a second here just look, you're shooting yourself in the foot because all of these arguments are relatively stupid and easy to debunk without bringing up how people have threatened to rape and kill women. I understand its horrid and should be brought to the public's attention, but don't use it as a talking point when ever you can't be arsed to come up with an actual argument.

Which is why, you will note, that I didn't do that. Stop shooting yourself in the foot, you can't be arsed etc etc.

The post I was referring to said that "the only people I've seen who instinctively react badly are the SJW types".

The well documented sending of rape and death threats shows this to be very untrue.

 

[Erttheking]

Don't assume that a man is, by definition, privileged.

Why not?

Because simply being male doesn't mean you wield any real power. And you don't even need to have a poverty-level income or be a discriminated minority; just being an average guy with a regular job doesn't give you some great power to do as you please.

Like I said before, sniffing out who is "privileged" is just another way to rationalize bashing a demographic group while cloaking it in public morals.

That's why not.

Ok look. I don't think people understand what people say when they mean privileged. I myself had to go through the phase where I got offended at the phrase because I thought it was undermining the struggle I had to go through with depression. But that's not what it means. If you're privileged, that just means that there are certain problems you'll never have to deal with.

If you're male, odds are you'll never have to experience being sexually harassed, have a next to none chance of being raped, have more job opportunities, have more representation in media, won't be shamed for having sex, are less likely to be called bossy for telling someone what to do, will have an easier time buying clothes that aren't designed to show off your body, won't have sexist comments directed at your gender aimed at you, etc etc etc.

It does not mean that you are incapable of having suffered, that you are all powerful, are rich, regularly step on women etc etc etc, it means that there are stuff women have to go through that odds are you never will. That's. ALL!

You heard it here first, folks. Men have a "next to none" chance of being raped. Nevermind the many male survivors of rape who are belittled and told that they weren't actually raped. Also, men aren't sexually harassed, and likely never will be! Also, being called bossy is really, really terrible, apparently. Also, men never have sexist comments directed at them because of their gender!

I do find the rest of your points valid, but the ones above are just silly.

Yes, men who do get raped and sexually harassed go to hell and back. Yes the deck is unfairly stacked against them and they have nothing but my utmost sympathy. My point was not that those men don't exist or don't deserve help (Christ, just yesterday I had someone on LoL ask why a guy should have a problem with a woman hitting on him, and both me and my female friend agreed that that made us feel very uncomfortable) what I'm saying is that the average man won't even think about this stuff happening to him. That's all I was trying to say and I didn't mean to offend.

 

[Ichiro Oogami]

It's not that women and/or non-whites want to play. They already do, and have the time of their lives.

It's how "inclusion," as defined by equality activists, is to be done.

Instead of putting in the effort to make excellent games aimed at the under-served demographics, activists instead pester AAA studios about their content and call them evil for not putting in things the activists want. They want to dictate content so that only games fitting their worldview get published. Sure, the activists fail more often than succeed, but this moral crusade isn't any more right than what the conservative Christians were demanding.

No one seriously has a problem with women or non-whites playing, or even games aimed at those demographics, the core demographics, or any combination thereof. We have a problem with humorless scolds telling us how sinister we are for having a guy rescue a princess.

Privilege doesn't guarantee "real power" or that anyone who has it is going to be smiled upon for all time by the God of Tits and Wine.

It is, however, a license to dismiss what someone says because of who they are. And here I was taught discrimination was bad! I guess it depends on the group being targeted.

 

[one squirrel]

If you're male, odds are you'll never have to experience being sexually harassed

Untrue, and men get just laughed at, when they complain about being harassed. "Are you a f*g or what?"

, have a next to none chance of being raped,

Like in the american prison system where there is an ACTUAL rape culture?

have more job opportunities,

The only jobs that only a man can work are the extremely hard and dangerous ones, like lumberjacks and or jobs in the heavy industries. I don't hear too many women complaining about not being allowed to be coal miners. All other jobs are equally open for men and women.

have more representation in media,

Yes, in the media that are primarily consumed by men, like the more hardcore video games, men are more represented. In other media they are not.

won't be shamed for having sex,

and instead getting shamed for not getting sex

are less likely to be called bossy for telling someone what to do,

No, the get called assholes insted, or boss, if they actually are the boss.

will have an easier time buying clothes that aren't designed to show off your body,

Women and men are attracted to different things. Men are attacted to beautiful women, women are attracted to confident men who can provide for them. A suit is a sexual statement, just as much as stilettos

won't have sexist comments directed at your gender aimed at you

Nice that you have all-encompassing knowledge of what comments men get directed at, so that you can make such a grand statement

It does not mean that you are incapable of having suffered, that you are all powerful, are rich, regularly step on women etc etc etc, it means that there are stuff women have to go through that odds are you never will. That's. ALL!

It does not mean that you are incapable of having suffered, that you are all powerful, are rich, regularly step on men etc etc etc, it means that there are stuff men have to go through that odds are women never will. That's. ALL!

 

[Erttheking]

If you're male, odds are you'll never have to experience being sexually harassed

Untrue, and men get just laughed at, when they complain about being harassed. "Are your a f*g or what?"

, have a next to none chance of being raped,

Like in the american prison system where there is an ACTUAL rape culture?

have more job opportunities,

The only jobs that only man can work are the extremely hard and dangerous ones, like lumberjacks and or jobs in the heavy industries. I don't hear too many women complaining about not being allowed to be coal miners. All other jobs are equally open for men and women.

have more representation in media,

Yes, in the media that are primarily consumed by men, like the more hardcore video games, men are more represented. In other media they are not.

won't be shamed for having sex,

and instead getting shamed for not getting sex

are less likely to be called bossy for telling someone what to do,

No, the get called assholes insted, or boss, if they actually are the boss.

will have an easier time buying clothes that aren't designed to show off your body,

Womens and men are attracted to different things. Men are attacted to beautiful women, women are attracted to confident men who can provide for them. A suit is a sexual statement, just as much as stilettos

won't have sexist comments directed at your gender aimed at you

Nice that you have all-encompassing knowledge of what comments men get directed at, so that you can make such a grand statement

It does not mean that you are incapable of having suffered, that you are all powerful, are rich, regularly step on women etc etc etc, it means that there are stuff women have to go through that odds are you never will. That's. ALL!

It does not mean that you are incapable of having suffered, that you are all powerful, are rich, regularly step on men etc etc etc, it means that there are stuff men have to go through that odds are women never will. That's. ALL!

I said odds are. Not that it was impossible. I've already talked about this in my last post.

Same as above.

I take it you've never heard of Glass Ceiling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling

Even openly equal opportunity jobs have more men than women in them, especially in positions of leadership, and women often find more difficulty in moving up the ladder than men.

Fair enough, but that still doesn't make slut shamming any less of a real problem.

I doubt that they'll be called assholes if they're not assholes, rather than just having the audacity to tell people what to do.

Ok, I have no idea where that came from. I was talking about common clothes, which regularly don't cover too much and aren't that practical if they're specifically designed for women, as opposed to male clothing which is designed to simply work. I've seen quite a few women complain about how much of a pain in the rear it is for them to find clothes that just work. Also another thing. Just recently I stopped to look at a mannequin in a story showing off female clothes, before comparing the size of it to my mother who has spent the last few months working out. If that mannequin was a real person, she'd be diagnosed with several eating disorders.

That wasn't an argument. You just said "How would you know?" without any other statement to disprove my argument.

YES! YES THERE ARE! I admit that, fully and freely! And you know what? Women have to go through crap men never do! So maybe we should stop making this an us vs them situation! Honestly, I'm just trying to point out that women have to go through crap men never do, what point are you trying to make by saying "Well men suffer to!" I KNOW THEY DO! One person's pain does not invalidate another's! And that goes both ways!

 

[Netrigan]

Don't assume that a man is, by definition, privileged.

Why not?

Because simply being male doesn't mean you wield any real power. And you don't even need to have a poverty-level income or be a discriminated minority; just being an average guy with a regular job doesn't give you some great power to do as you please.

Like I said before, sniffing out who is "privileged" is just another way to rationalize bashing a demographic group while cloaking it in public morals.

That's why not.

Ok look. I don't think people understand what people say when they mean privileged. I myself had to go through the phase where I got offended at the phrase because I thought it was undermining the struggle I had to go through with depression. But that's not what it means. If you're privileged, that just means that there are certain problems you'll never have to deal with.

If you're male, odds are you'll never have to experience being sexually harassed, have a next to none chance of being raped, have more job opportunities, have more representation in media, won't be shamed for having sex, are less likely to be called bossy for telling someone what to do, will have an easier time buying clothes that aren't designed to show off your body, won't have sexist comments directed at your gender aimed at you, etc etc etc.

It does not mean that you are incapable of having suffered, that you are all powerful, are rich, regularly step on women etc etc etc, it means that there are stuff women have to go through that odds are you never will. That's. ALL!

You heard it here first, folks. Men have a "next to none" chance of being raped. Nevermind the many male survivors of rape who are belittled and told that they weren't actually raped. Also, men aren't sexually harassed, and likely never will be! Also, being called bossy is really, really terrible, apparently. Also, men never have sexist comments directed at them because of their gender!

I do find the rest of your points valid, but the ones above are just silly.

Yes, men who do get raped and sexually harassed go to hell and back. Yes the deck is unfairly stacked against them and they have nothing but my utmost sympathy. My point was not that those men don't exist or don't deserve help (Christ, just yesterday I had someone on LoL ask why a guy should have a problem with a woman hitting on him, and both me and my female friend agreed that that made us feel very uncomfortable) what I'm saying is that the average man won't even think about this stuff happening to him. That's all I was trying to say and I didn't mean to offend.

It's also a bit naive to think that a women's advocacy organization will spend a great deal of time, effort, and money supporting causes which don't concern women. They do to a certain extent as there's some overlap, but their focus has always been on women's issues. They throw their support behind breast and cervical cancer rather than prostate and testicle cancer.

There's nothing stopping men from organizing and dealing with issues that mostly affect them. The MRAs are largely a joke, but there's lots of good issues mixed in with the reactionary stuff. The magazine Men's Health has been out there for quite some time and a quick Googling "Men's Health Magazine Sexist" doesn't reveal any major complaints of sexism. Don't concern yourself overly much about what other people are doing and focus on helping people in need within your own demographic and there shouldn't be.

 

[Erttheking]

Don't assume that a man is, by definition, privileged.

Why not?

Because simply being male doesn't mean you wield any real power. And you don't even need to have a poverty-level income or be a discriminated minority; just being an average guy with a regular job doesn't give you some great power to do as you please.

Like I said before, sniffing out who is "privileged" is just another way to rationalize bashing a demographic group while cloaking it in public morals.

That's why not.

Ok look. I don't think people understand what people say when they mean privileged. I myself had to go through the phase where I got offended at the phrase because I thought it was undermining the struggle I had to go through with depression. But that's not what it means. If you're privileged, that just means that there are certain problems you'll never have to deal with.

If you're male, odds are you'll never have to experience being sexually harassed, have a next to none chance of being raped, have more job opportunities, have more representation in media, won't be shamed for having sex, are less likely to be called bossy for telling someone what to do, will have an easier time buying clothes that aren't designed to show off your body, won't have sexist comments directed at your gender aimed at you, etc etc etc.

It does not mean that you are incapable of having suffered, that you are all powerful, are rich, regularly step on women etc etc etc, it means that there are stuff women have to go through that odds are you never will. That's. ALL!

You heard it here first, folks. Men have a "next to none" chance of being raped. Nevermind the many male survivors of rape who are belittled and told that they weren't actually raped. Also, men aren't sexually harassed, and likely never will be! Also, being called bossy is really, really terrible, apparently. Also, men never have sexist comments directed at them because of their gender!

I do find the rest of your points valid, but the ones above are just silly.

Yes, men who do get raped and sexually harassed go to hell and back. Yes the deck is unfairly stacked against them and they have nothing but my utmost sympathy. My point was not that those men don't exist or don't deserve help (Christ, just yesterday I had someone on LoL ask why a guy should have a problem with a woman hitting on him, and both me and my female friend agreed that that made us feel very uncomfortable) what I'm saying is that the average man won't even think about this stuff happening to him. That's all I was trying to say and I didn't mean to offend.

It's also a bit naive to think that a women's advocacy organization will spend a great deal of time, effort, and money supporting causes which don't concern women. They do to a certain extent as there's some overlap, but their focus has always been on women's issues. They throw their support behind breast and cervical cancer rather than prostate and testicle cancer.

There's nothing stopping men from organizing and dealing with issues that mostly affect them. The MRAs are largely a joke, but there's lots of good issues mixed in with the reactionary stuff. The magazine Men's Health has been out there for quite some time and a quick Googling "Men's Health Magazine Sexist" doesn't reveal any major complaints of sexism. Don't concern yourself overly much about what other people are doing and focus on helping people in need within your own demographic and there shouldn't be.

Yeah the problem with this is that feminism isn't really an organization. It's an organization in the same way that people who beleive net neutrality should be supported in America is an organization. It's really more of an idea than anything else. And frankly I've met plenty of feminists who care just as much about men's problems as women's problems. For starters I'm one of them, quite a few of my friends, and I even found this Tumblr post with 150,000 notes which mainly consisted of feminists freaking out at Misandric women.

http://kitkatinahat.tumblr.com/post/89739085499/sameatschildren-co8alt-thief

And begging your pardon, but I'm quite capable of caring about more than one demographic at the same time, thank you very much.

 

[Michel Henzel]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

I listened, I thought about it, I looked into it, did not agree with it and moved on. And it appears to not be enough, so what now?

 

[DementedSheep]

Well honestly what it sounds like you are doing is taking a whole bunch of stuff said by different people and aimed at different groups, conglomerating it into one big thing that targets you specifically and then being very paranoid about it. Criticism aimed at group as a whole aren't criticism aimed everyone in that group. Relax a little.

 

[Doclector]

Well honestly what sounds like you are doing is taking a whole bunch of stuff said by different people and aimed at different groups, conglomerating it into one big thing that targets you specifically and then being very paranoid about it. Criticism aimed at group as a whole aren't criticism aimed everyone in that group. Relax a little.

I try. But it honestly feels like it doesn't matter whether it's aimed at me or not when if these views become the new norm, I'll be labelled like that anyway.

 

[Erttheking]

-snip

/salute

Yea, I'd like to see some of these people actually put in some time in the service. They want to talk about privilege? how about the privilege where they're the fucking 99% who's never had to spent a single day in a uniform in service of something else other than their armchair philosophy pursuit.

Times like this is when I wish we still have the draft, I'd like to see these people spend a year in the shitholes of Afghanistan and then try to talk about the fucking male privilege.

Wishing harm to come to people who disagree with you? Really? I mean really? Also, yeah, we don't have the draft. Because the draft is immoral and bullshit. You can't wish for stuff like that back JUST SO THAT YOUR POINT CAN BE RIGHT!

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

You're raging about something that is hardly a problem. Why do you care so much what dimwits on the internet "label" you as? Who gives a shit about what Gamergate has to say? Or feminists, or anyone in this matter who is taking extreme stances?

Just calm down and carry on, you're over-reacting to nothing : /

Nothing about what you love is going to change, the current bandwagons passing through gaming press/forums are nothing to worry about. Don't make a bigger deal out of it than it actually is.

 

[KokujinTensai]

It's very hard to take the their concept of "Privilege" seriously when they're posting from stable first world countries.

 

[Quadocky]

They can be whatever the fuck they wanna be, just as long as they arn't racist/sexist jerkwads. If you are, I am going to be very strongly worded with you.

I am play too many god damn video games, I don't have personal problems with persecution because I don't define my entire existence around fucking video games. I am also a political savvy newshound, aspiring keyboardist and music maker. I am also an amateur writer who doesn't read books but loves to write. I love to listen to UCTV lectures and love to master the art of critical thought.

I like to go outside and walk my dog and brush the heck outta that cute coat of his.

Now I ask: Who the hell is making you feel so persecuted? What is making you feel so wronged?

 

[Doclector]

They can be whatever the fuck they wanna be, just as long as they arn't racist/sexist jerkwads. If you are, I am going to be very strongly worded with you.

I am play too many god damn video games, I don't have personal problems with persecution because I don't define my entire existence around fucking video games. I am also a political savvy newshound, aspiring keyboardist and music maker. I am also an amateur writer who doesn't read books but loves to write. I love to listen to UCTV lectures and love to master the art of critical thought.

I like to go outside and walk my dog and brush the heck outta that cute coat of his.

Now I ask: Who the hell is making you feel so persecuted? What is making you feel so wronged?

Because I see this posted everywhere. People say on the internet what they really think, what they won't say in real life. It's gaining speed and popularity. People already see me and laugh at me and make jokes about me, what would it be like if everyone had the view that most male gamers were assholes?

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

-snip-

I'll give my input on how to behave through things like this. This applies to everyone.

Step 1. Stop.
Step 2. Breathe.
Step 3. Take a look at the argument presented.
Step 4. Analyze the argument for both truth and logic.
Step 5. Either accept said argument or point out the errors.
Step 6. Raise your objections in a relaxed, non-confrontational manner.
Step 7. Wait eagerly for the response.
Step 8. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

Done. Eight steps to a fruitful and prosperous discussion if both sides adhere to such rules.

Processes like this give you the distance arguments about "privilege" and "culture" through a relatively objective scale. It gives one the freedom to see if they have a leg to stand upon. Some arguments hold weight. Some do not. Take some, but leave the others.

 

[DementedSheep]

Well honestly what sounds like you are doing is taking a whole bunch of stuff said by different people and aimed at different groups, conglomerating it into one big thing that targets you specifically and then being very paranoid about it. Criticism aimed at group as a whole aren't criticism aimed everyone in that group. Relax a little.

I try. But it honestly feels like it doesn't matter whether it's aimed at me or not when if these views become the new norm, I'll be labelled like that anyway.

Look most of this shit is storms in teacups and people talking in broad generalisations. it not about you and it really doesn't effect real life at all. Hell it hardly affects gaming.

"I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off."


To address this concern of yours in more detail.

Seriously you don't need to do this, most women aren't that scary really. Just have some common courtesy (ie don't stare at tits). Yes working on appearance dose help especially if you want a girlfriend because despite what many people seem to think women are actually attracted to mens bodies not just whether their "alpha" or "can provide" or not but it's not the be all and end all. Some are are bitches of course but ignore them and try not to attach more meaning to things than there is (I mention this because I do this and you sound like you might though I may be assuming a bit too much) because chances are what you think they are doing isn't what they are doing. Like sometimes when someone needs to go they actually need to go and its not a plot to get away from you.

"Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover."

This doesn't really happen. I don't know of anyone who has been doxxed for buying something. Occasionally you get some unlucky SOB who may be a guy or girl who turns into a meme because people can be terrible when given a image on the internet with little context. It seems to turn peoples brains off and they forget its of a person but that's very very unlikely to be you or me or anyone you or I know and even when that dose happen its more an image being used to represent something broadly. Again it not really about the person.
People aren't analysing what you are buying as you are buying it. I use to think people did that. The reason I didn't get into comics until I found digital distribution is because I thought people would judge me for it or someone would look at me, look at the fact that I'm not hugely knowledgeable about comics cause I'm only just getting into them and like them but not that much and it would add to the stereotype of "Fake geek girl whore". I also didn't use a mic in games for the same reason. I thought people would be secretly using my performance to judge all female gamers. I stopped playing a Tomb Raider game because off an off hand comment about being a lesbian even though the T & A was not why I was playing it. I never talked about anything I like unless the person I was talking to initiated it. I never even liked people looking at my music, I was that uptight about it. But now that I'm a little older and less obsessed with how people think of me I'm able take a step back and realise...people aren't actually doing this. To quote from Saga "never worry what other people think of you, because no one ever thinks of you". People are far too absorbed in their own life to be analysing every thing you do and judging you. The few that will are insignificant so fuck em.

Also if I'm say...criticising a cover or how some female character is posed I am not criticizing everyone who buys that comic. If I saw it and I'm talking about it it's probably because it's something I'm actually interested in or read. I just don't like that aspect. So why would I then assume everyone else is buying it because of the thing I take a bit of an issue with? If you don't take issue with it or hell even like it, whatever. It's usually a problem with prevalence or just disappointment because I want to like it and something its getting in the way of all the good parts for me and I feel like venting about it. It's not "OMG this exists at all, fuck you if you like it" and I don't expect everyone to care about things I do. Just don't barge into a conversation about it and be like "Shut up, feminazi" though you can say you like something the way it is and why. Also keep in mind arguments on the internet get heated at times and it tends to make people sound more extreme than they are as they try to make a point (I've done that, I think everyone dose). Again this rarely transfers over into real life.


Edited to add more stuff and because I make a ton of typos.

 

[Vigormortis]

People want white male gamers to admit that that they're sinners, repent, and accept Anita and Zoe as their Lord and Saviors.

Psh. Heathens! Blasphemers!

As a dedicated PC gamer, I bow down to only one lord and savior:

Spoiler: Praise Him!

snip

QF-fucking-T

I'd also like to add that I hate sexism and misogyny as much as anyone, and gladly stand next to my fellow feminists in fighting against such lunacy, but the moment a fellow feminist[footnote]For the record, though: While I hold many values that are shared by feminism, I tend to refer to myself as a humanist instead. (with some leanings towards transhumanism, but that's another topic for another day)[/footnote] starts spouting out nonsensical bullshit like "check your privilege", "the patriarchy", "mansplaining", etc, in a none ironic way, I just tune them out. They're just as ignorant as those they're claiming to be fighting against.

Curse them to the same deep, dank pit other sexist and/or racist bigots deserve to be sent to.

 

[Quadocky]

They can be whatever the fuck they wanna be, just as long as they arn't racist/sexist jerkwads. If you are, I am going to be very strongly worded with you.

I am play too many god damn video games, I don't have personal problems with persecution because I don't define my entire existence around fucking video games. I am also a political savvy newshound, aspiring keyboardist and music maker. I am also an amateur writer who doesn't read books but loves to write. I love to listen to UCTV lectures and love to master the art of critical thought.

I like to go outside and walk my dog and brush the heck outta that cute coat of his.

Now I ask: Who the hell is making you feel so persecuted? What is making you feel so wronged?

Because I see this posted everywhere. People say on the internet what they really think, what they won't say in real life. It's gaining speed and popularity. People already see me and laugh at me and make jokes about me, what would it be like if everyone had the view that most male gamers were assholes?

???

I can't decipher this very well.

What would it be like? People had that view for years! Its been that way for freakin' YEARS! And they weren't wrong (to an extent).