What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[Thorn14]

And for folks to stop making death and rape threats, and to stop thinking that's "okay" or "just part of the culture." It's not okay.

I'm sorry but most people don't make death or rape threats and they also don't think it's okay. What most do think is that it's an unfortunate reality on the internet and one they cannot get rid off. I'd say your statement is part of the problem. You're making it look like it's some kind of culturally accepted thing among male gamers, it is not.

What privilege? In the industry it's quite clear, men inject most money so they get most return. It would actually be quite a privilege for the others if they could get the same while investing less. But than again i don't subscribe to marxism, maybe you do?

Uhh... injecting money for.. most return? Return on investment isn't a gender based formula. Just cause men invest money does not mean they are investing in having games targetted towards men. That's more of an industry construct, and there's plenty of examples of games that step outside the comfort zone that perform just as well.

Additionally, there's plenty of evidence that when a game DOES step outside that safe zone matrix, like lets say having a female main character, it gets less attention, less marketing and generally less of a budget. It's impossible to tell if games that do have trouble selling is simply due to the changes or due to the fact that the publisher simply has less confidence to begin with.

It says alot right there when straying away from the standard white male protaganist is considered a 'risk' when it comes to investment. That really says alot about the industry. I personally believe gamers are not as afraid of playing women or different races or whatever as the industry seems to believe, but that's just how things work.

It actually being a risk vs being perceived as one also makes a difference. With how expensive gaming is now becoming, publishers are going to want to have the safest investment they can conceive. Having a female MC may not actually alienate audiences but to publishers it MIGHT, and they don't like gambling on things like that.

Thats why I believe instead of criticizing games that appeal to males, lets simply make more games that can appeal to every gender, and PROVE theres an audience.

 

[DANEgerous]

Actually giving rebuttals to cries of sexism, or acknowledging and decrying actual sexism. You know what most guys do and to be honest what many of the larger voices on the #GamerGate have done since and even prior to it starting.

 

[generals3]

Uhh... injecting money for.. most return? Return on investment isn't a gender based formula. Just cause men invest money does not mean they are investing in having games targetted towards men. That's more of an industry construct, and there's plenty of examples of games that step outside the comfort zone that perform just as well.

I was actually referring to the games people purchase (which is money which ends up in the pocket of the company and used to create games) and on that aspect the numbers are quite clear. The more "traditional" formulas sell better. So that's what is getting produced in larger scales.

 

[Phasmal]

Ok looks like this thread boarded the Crazy Train.

I am disappoint.
Oh well- here are a list of the following things I EXPECT from all male gamers, and if you don't meet them then dishonour on you.

Spoiler: This is probably gonna be big

Spoiler: Seriously I warned you

OT: But seriously as long as you're not an asshole about it you're cool with me. But I wouldn't take the `attacks` on male gamers to heart, we've all been told to get thicker skins right? And if you're not doing anything wrong, fuck 'em.

Now I've gotta get off the Crazy Train.

 

[runic knight]

Ok looks like this thread boarded the Crazy Train.

I am disappoint.
Oh well- here are a list of the following things I EXPECT from all male gamers, and if you don't meet them then dishonour on you.

Spoiler: This is probably gonna be big

Spoiler: Seriously I warned you

OT: But seriously as long as you're not an asshole about it you're cool with me. But I wouldn't take the `attacks` on male gamers to heart, we've all been told to get thicker skins right? And if you're not doing anything wrong, fuck 'em.

Now I've gotta get off the Crazy Train.

ok, that had me laughing, so kudos to you.
Also, wouldn't that rule apply to "gamers" in general, or just "people" for that matter?

 

[Doclector]

Ok looks like this thread boarded the Crazy Train.

I am disappoint.
Oh well- here are a list of the following things I EXPECT from all male gamers, and if you don't meet them then dishonour on you.

Spoiler: This is probably gonna be big

Spoiler: Seriously I warned you

OT: But seriously as long as you're not an asshole about it you're cool with me. But I wouldn't take the `attacks` on male gamers to heart, we've all been told to get thicker skins right? And if you're not doing anything wrong, fuck 'em.

Now I've gotta get off the Crazy Train.

Guess that's what I should do. Of course, it's the doing part that's difficult. Especially with a mind that simply won't obey my orders.

 

[Riot3000]

Look here my man I feel ya sometimes I feel that way sometimes you had your trials and your tribulations like everyone else yet a some people tell to get over it and try to make their more worse and play that "privilege" game they got going on.

Basically they are telling you to "man up" without saying outright because that would conflict a lot with moral standing.

This what you do man be a good person and don't harm to yourself or others. Listening to people critique you when they don't even know you and think they can summarize you experience on the grounds of your gender are the last people you need listen.

What made you think that being a decent person was simple? If it was easy, everyone would do it.

And, TBH, a rant like this doesn't really give me the impression that you are too interested in actually trying to be decent person, rather than going through the motions to make you look like one. Common mistake, but a bad one.

If ranting on the Internet is a mark of an undecent person then the entirety of the Internet are aholes.

@Doclector

I see where you are coming from and I will be honest with you; you only made one mistake. You listened to people who don't know anything about you and adapted your behavior to their baseless critique.

Be yourself and don't harm others. That's what a decent person is all about and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Basically parrot what dragoonfa is saying. You have your experiences they are legit don't let anyone tell they are insignificant because some head up the ass moral posturing. Leave that guilt by association nonsense behind if you did not do wrong by no one you don't need to carry burden of some other assclowns nonsense.

I feel for you I can relate and wish you the best man.

 

[hazabaza1]

Well this thread is crashing and burning, but I'll give you some advice, OP. You ready?

Spoiler

You're paranoid.

Like massively.

To a worrying extent.

There aren't people waiting in comic or game shops waiting to take a picture of you, and if they do, hey there's 7 billion fucking people on this little round rock of ours, the chance of you being identified is about absolutely nothing unless you want to get yourself noticed. And how do people get noticed? By being crazy fuckers. Crazy racist, crazy sexist, crazy liberal, crazy conservative, crazy whatever. Take a deep, deep fucking breath and moderate yourself. This shit doesn't matter, and if someone does start talking to you at the store or whatever, questioning your purchasing choices? Ignore them, that's rude as fuck and they're probably a **** anyway.

Privilege and sexism and how people are treated in the workplace are their own issues, but people really don't care about your nerd habits as much as you think. On an average day, the most you're going to get from buying a sketchy looking comic is someone tutting behind your back and talking to their friends about it.

 

[Phasmal]

ok, that had me laughing, so kudos to you.
Also, wouldn't that rule apply to "gamers" in general, or just "people" for that matter?

Pardon me for saying so but: Well duh.

Obviously it applies in general, but this thread was being specific so I was too.

Dammit man I thought I had gone out of this thread on a high note and now I got nothin'.

 

[Riot3000]

First of all, dragonswarrior, if you want to present ?white privilege? as a legitimate argument, then you?ll have to ignore the entirety of Irish, Scottish, Polish, Jewish, and Italian history.

Second of all, I believe this image is relevant.

Please don?t take this as an attack. It?s just that whenever I hear stuff about ?privilege? and ?oppression? (especially from people living in First World countries), it makes me think like everyone?s having some kind of Oppression Olympics over whose life is shittier and who got it worse in the birth lottery.

I?m black, but I?m also male. Do I have ?male privilege?, or does the fact that I?m an ethnic minority balance it out? Still, even though I was bullied at school for my ethnicity (although they called it ?banter? and that I was just ?sensitive?), I don?t see myself as being oppressed. My parents weren?t slaves. I don?t use my ethnicity as an excuse for the problems I may have in my life. I don?t need Jesse Jackson to tell me that I?m strong, independent, and could be the Mayor of London if I wanted to. I don?t recall ever really having a ?male power fantasy?; all I thought was that guys like Batman and Sonic the Hedgehog were cool as hell. But I thought the same thing about Chun-Li and Dixie Kong. Most people, men and women, like having power, but I doubt most of us decide to write a comic book or video game where the protagonist gets to beat up homeless prostitutes for that reason (unless they?re Frank Miller, lol).

Couldn?t I claim that those same white women, like Sarkeesian and Quinn, complaining about ?male privilege?, are themselves a bunch of shameless con-artists with ?white privilege?, ?heteronormative privilege?, ?American privilege?, or ?middle-class privilege?? Heck, let?s go the whole hog. You?re whining about having periods? Trans women can?t even have periods; this is just ?cis privilege?! You don?t like men looking at your legs when you wear a miniskirt? Did you even stop to think about disabled women who don?t have legs and face discrimination because of it? ?Ableist privilege!?

See my point? I?m not denying that there?s a lack of variety when it comes to well-written characters in story-driven video games, but if a developer puts their blood and sweat into a game, only for their work to be ripped apart and belittled by some preachy Starbucks-sipping yuppie who thinks they have any idea how the industry works, they should quite frankly fuck off and stop demanding that developers make games for their demographic above one that is just more safe and marketable. You know, I once literally read an article about a woman who?d been sexually abused by her mother as a child, and then in turn attempted to justify her fear of lesbians by saying that others would understand if they?d gone through what she had. No, I?m sorry, it?s sad that your mother fucked you, but it?s not the lesbians? fault.

Fuck the Oppression Olympics. Fuck censorship. Fuck privilege. Fuck ?ableism?. Fuck ?the patriarchy? (as if it?s some kind of evil secret organisation run by a Mr. Burns-like figure to put down those pesky broads who don?t know their place). Fuck ?rape culture?. Fuck ?cultural appropriation? (although the fact that most people don?t know the origins of rock music and how they aren?t many popular black rock stars nowadays could be worth a topic all on its own). Fuck class divisions. Fuck ?social justice?. Fuck sex-negative feminism. Fuck radical feminism. All people want to do is ***** and moan without doing anything of importance.

This was an interesting post and you make a good point about the origins of rock music.

As a black male I feel that we are left out of this we don't have dog in this fight it is for the straight cis white men and women. If we really wanted to play this privilege game the likes of Anita and Quinn probably have way more privilege than a black male but that is just being cheeky and no one needs need to go there.

I mean I find it funny that is the OP is being told stop taking things personally and it is not about him yet turn around we have to be vigilant if some makes a sandwich joke? Man that patriarchy and them gender expectations do a real good job of being low key. I guess "Listen and Believe" is not privilege of Doc's he gets the "Listen and Dismissed and told to get over it" package.

I mean I speak out against crap in general most people do and I don't game community is allowing this to happen. I mean I can only say something if I am around to see it but extinguishing it is a bit of a pull.

I mean I don't mind women gaming they were already there, minorities as far as I am concerned were already there, mix up of protagonist not go to gruff white male military dude everyone is mostly tired of that the white probably more so because numbers are funny.

I just don't know I can't stop trying to decipher this I mean these past couple of weeks have been topsy turvy the feminism sounds like patriarchy, conservatives having more liberal values than liberals and worse of all I was cheering for the Chicago Cubs. End of days I tell you.

But for serial you guys I feel like there is so much more to this discussion but the trenches have been dug at this point.

Now to play diffuse things a bit here is a cheetah cub and puppy they are BFFs.

[youtube=VojiiR7xlJw

 

[jethroe498]

The most important thing to do is just live your life how you want to live it. Do the things you enjoy, and try your best not to hurt anyone, thats all you can ever really do. Some people get offended too easily, but frankly, it doesn't matter because

A.) You probably wouldn't like that person anyways
B.) There's another 7 billion people

I personally think that we should stop focusing everything on race, sex or privilege and just see each other as people. No presumptions about anyone, no prejudices, no attempts to weight everything in terms of representation or race/gender portrayal, there are always far more interesting and significant ways to judge both people and pieces of media.

 

[SquidSponge]

[Snip]

Actually, I feel you on that one. Some time ago I used to argue a similar thing - that the extreme ones are not "real" feminists (and not to judge the bulk by the extremism of the few) but then someone pointed out that it was a "no true Scotsman" argument and honestly I didn't have a response to that. Besides which, the "bad" ones have since become more numerous (to the point of majority, as best I can tell), bellicose, irrational and influential - at least as far as the internet is concerned.

As I was trying (poorly) to say in my prior post, more recently I've concluded that the largest changes with gender equality (eg getting the vote) have already been done in the earlier "waves" of feminism, and what is needed now is fine tuning. That just will not happen if one belongs to a movement approaches the issues from the perspective of either gender (which feminism as a whole really does, regardless of its more well-intentioned individual members). In other words, the feminist and MRA movements both need to gather up whatever scraps of respectability they yet retain and, along with the abomination that "social justice" became, die with dignity to make way for a new movement ("egalitarianism", perhaps), free of any such bias. All of which will presumably happen the day after the Ninth Circle sees 3 feet of snow.

I guess you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

 

[KrystelCandy]

[Snip]

Actually, I feel you on that one. Some time ago I used to argue a similar thing - that the extreme ones are not "real" feminists (and not to judge the bulk by the extremism of the few) but then someone pointed out that it was a "no true Scotsman" argument and honestly I didn't have a response to that. Besides which, the "bad" ones have since become more numerous (to the point of majority, as best I can tell), bellicose, irrational and influential - at least as far as the internet is concerned.

As I was trying (poorly) to say in my prior post, more recently I've concluded that the largest changes with gender equality (eg getting the vote) have already been done in the earlier "waves" of feminism, and what is needed now is fine tuning. That just will not happen if one belongs to a movement approaches the issues from the perspective of either gender (which feminism as a whole really does, regardless of its more well-intentioned individual members). In other words, the feminist and MRA movements both need to gather up whatever scraps of respectability they yet retain and, along with the abomination that "social justice" became, die with dignity to make way for a new movement ("egalitarianism", perhaps), free of any such bias. All of which will presumably happen the day after the Ninth Circle sees 3 feet of snow.

I guess you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

I did not say that misandrists are not feminists, I said they are different things. It's like calling an Irishman a scotsman because you can't differentiate the accent, or a Chinese person Japanese. It's perfectly possible to belong to different disciplines of thought, even if they sometimes conflict. They are different things, although being one does not mean you cannot be the other.

Extreme feminism is sort of difficult since its extreme EQUALITY, we also want to get rid of our unfair 'benefits' which we get due to the weird worldview that we are the weaker sex. People who want matriarchical societies, hate men, etc are not feminists... because feminism has NOTHING to do with that in any way shape or form. You can have bad feminists, who dont understand why we do what we do, and we can havep eople who don't understand feminism who claim to be feminists, but you cannot be an extreme feminist unless you believe things like "anyone with any inherent advantage over anyone else should be punished and brought into line with everyone else.

There are still significant things that need changing, but we have made alot of progress. Saying feminism is done and just needs fine tuning is to kind of ignore the constant issues we still face, as well as having to deal with the cultural backlash that has come with feminism. Look at 10 years ago, you did NOT see the kind of hyper-masculinity back then that you arguably see today, games such as Gears of War style main characters were just less present in the older days and less played up as 'real' characters. This is a result of feminism 'usurping' traditional masculine ideas, and the response being to double down on those older ones.

MRA movements... if you're equating feminism with that, I think you need to do a bit more research on the topic and what both sides represent. There's a reason people say feminism, and it's not because men are the oppressed gender, nor does feminism seek to put additional restrictions or take away the rights of men. It simply seeks a level playing field and fairness for both genders. Equal skill, equal opportunities. Feminism has alot of respectability... people need to stop conflating feminism with misandry however as a kind of straw man argument to dismiss feminism.

The term egalitarianism also has issues with feminism, as it seeks to be a neutral term that seeks the same ends. However egalitarianism is not feminism, and in fact trying to use that term kind of undermines your point, as saying "replace feminism with egalitarianism" ignores who has been the traditionally more burdened gender when it comes to cultural oppression.

I see this argument alot, and it's been long since dismissed, people dismiss feminism by focusing on misandrists, which are a different thing, as well as focusing on "fake" feminism movements (like bra burning) to somehow justify that we are silly. That's just now how it works.

So yeah, full on feminist here, and I'm more than happy to respond to any points I can, at least until I get busy again.

 

[maidenm]

I'm trying to get more help, more therapy. I'm trying to keep as active socially as I can manage. And considering how fucking angry I've been at this issue, it may surprise you but I've been trying to process my thoughts a little more before I let myself get angry. One day I wanna campaign for better recognition of autism as a serious condition, whilst trying for a little more equality in general for the disabled and mentally ill, most of whom it's still considered fine to make fun of in our society. I wanna get a job and save up for my own equipment so I can make films towards such a goal.

So in short I'm doing all I can. Which is difficult when it feels like the world wants to knock me on my ass all the time. Which tenuously brings us back to the topic at hand, the problem with privilege is that people just assume shit based on gender, race and sexuality. People assume because I'm a straight white male I have skipped through fields of honey and popcorn for most of my life. Hell, even being white wasn't much of an advantage in school. Our school had a great sense of equality, y'see, it was a cultural melting pot where everyone seemed to hate each other fucking equally. I mean it, seriously, the numbers were that balanced that it was hard to pick out a racial majority but they didn't do jack shit about actually tackling racism so people just shit on everyone who wasn't like them.

I would've left that school, but guess what? No other school in the area wanted to deal with my Aspergers. Despite the fact that "dealing with it" would've been little more than than just a bit of extra support and maybe, just maybe, actually doing something about bullying.

One piece of advice I can give that helped me and pretty much every other aspie I've met: Do a little at a time. Never do two big things at once. Start with, say, the theraphy. Work out as much as you can there. Work out how you think, how others think, how you can deal with how others think.
Then when you feel better about that, when you feel it's no longer a horrible obstacle but rather an inconvenience, go to the next thing. Like getting social or getting a job with "normal" people around you.

I'd wait with the political agenda if I where you though. You clearly have enough self-reflection to know you are not ready yet. As long as you are scared of going into stores, you'll never be able to get people to take you seriously as an equal.

If it helps, here's my personal method for "being among people" training:

Ok, as this is what helped me it might not work for you, but you might want to give it a try. What I did was do start thinking of people as machines. I started by going to the local store, breaking out in sweat, feeling dizzy and nauseous, thinking everyone looked at me and judged me for how I looked, acted or what I bought. Then I just pretended like I was surrounded by atomatons. At first it only worked with the cashier, but with practice I was able to ignore everyone. Now I can go grocery shopping without anexiety, wich in turn helps me by leaving energy for so much else.


Also, one last thing. I also got denied help in school. Some teachers outright called me stupid and the principal thought my mom was wasting her time pointing out that there was a asperger class in school I might've joined. I quit school, did nothing for years.
Today I'm studying at university level in preperation for working a proper job. I thought I was hopeless. It took me years to realise I wasn't.

I know what you're going trough quite well. Don't give up, when used right your asperger will become the best thing that ever happened to you.

One last also, sorry if this derailed from the thread too much.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

snip

Of course not. It gives you an unfair advantage though, which is what privilege is.

Where do I have an unfair advantage for being a male?

Are you serious? You are more likely get a job, get paid around 20% on average for doing exactly the same thing, and far less likely to get sexually harassed in the workplace (to name a couple of things). That is the definition of privilege

That's not true.
PoC and women have now a higher chance for getting a job because all the companies want to be politically correct so they would rather give a job to a incompetent woman than a competent white man. I know, I got rejected several times already only to find out that the girl got the job.

At my previous job I got the exact same salary as all my female coworker who had the same position as me.

I'm not less likely to get sexually harassed. I'm as likely or even more likely to get sexually harassed because women hitting on men is not considered sexual harassment by the was majority and if a man complains about it they will tell him to grow a pair and/or get asked if they are gay.

 

[Vault101]

First of all, dragonswarrior, if you want to present ?white privilege? as a legitimate argument, then you?ll have to ignore the entirety of Irish, Scottish, Polish, Jewish, and Italian history.

Second of all, I believe this image is relevant.

relevant to what? that image is cherry picking BS

it carries about as much weight as the lock and key metaphor

[quote/]I?m black, but I?m also male. Do I have ?male privilege?, or does the fact that I?m an ethnic minority balance it out? Still, even though I was bullied at school for my ethnicity (although they called it ?banter? and that I was just ?sensitive?), I don?t see myself as being oppressed. My parents weren?t slaves. I don?t use my ethnicity as an excuse for the problems I may have in my life. I don?t need Jesse Jackson to tell me that I?m strong, independent, and could be the Mayor of London if I wanted to. I don?t recall ever really having a ?male power fantasy?; all I thought was that guys like Batman and Sonic the Hedgehog were cool as hell. But I thought the same thing about Chun-Li and Dixie Kong. Most people, men and women, like having power, but I doubt most of us decide to write a comic book or video game where the protagonist gets to beat up homeless prostitutes for that reason (unless they?re Frank Miller, lol).
.[/quote]

its cross sectional

so YOU would have privileges as a man that I do not because I'm a woman

I would have privileges you don't because I'm white

none of these cancel each other out

so your statement about sarseeskian and quin having white/hetero/cis/class privilege would be true

its all kinda statistical anyway and depends on where you live

 

[Ikaruga33]

Just do whatever you want man, like me.
I'm going to play my titty simulator games like Dead or Alive, and there ain't nothing no one can do to stop me.

 

[Cecilo]

I have seen several posts in here about why Gamers have made Gaming such a crucial part of their identity, I cannot speak for all gamers but for me, it was like this.

In my youth, I didn't have many friends, my family moved around a lot, My Older Brother didn't like me (7 Years older, Brotherly competition and all that). So what did I do? I gamed. People made fun of me for being the new kid? Gamed. For being different? Gamed. People made fun of me for x, y, and z? Gamed. Throughout all the different parts of school, gaming was where I went to for relief, and in time, around the junior year of high school I found my school had a gaming club, and for the first time, ever. I felt like I fit in with something. Gaming, I dare say, saved my life. It allowed me to make the friends I needed, to grow as a person. To move on, many of those friends, without them I wouldn't have the drive to get up in the morning, And gaming is what tied me to them. I deal with work to get paid so I can go home and talk to my Girlfriend, and our friends about what we are gonna do that weekend for our D&D campaign, Or our Raids in wow.

So fast forward to now, 2014, Gamers are dead, Gamers are Rapists, Gamers are Terrorists, Gamers are Sexists who send threats. Rather than "Anonymous asshole sends Games Critic Threats", which as far as I can tell none of the threats Anita got were from someone she could identify, the first two of whom came from 4chan, which I will remind you, covers everything from Real Life, to Politics, to Anime, to Video Games, the threats from 4chan could have been bronies not gamers for all we know. The ones from Twitter, also have no way to identify them, and yet we are still called out for being the monsters, with no proof to back up that these people are even gamers... at all.

-----------------------------

I understand it can be hard to put yourself in my shoes and to see things from my eyes. But just imagine for a second, your favorite thing in the world, something that has literally helped you and kept you, and helped you make the friends you have, and cherish, who share their stories after a long day of work, about that awesome thing that happened. Imagine that they called Game of Thrones watchers Terrorists, because they sent G.R.R Martin threats about not finishing his latest book sooner. That sounds silly right? Surely they would just call it a group of extremists, or a group of assholes. Not the entire fanbase.

So if you, or they didn't mean All Gamers, then they should have used something else. A Sexist, A Rapist, A Racist. A Terrorist, Not gamers are rapists. Not Gamers are Terrorists, Not Gamers are Worse than ISIS. When they say Gamers, that means all Gamers, not magically some, and if you feel insulted it means you did something wrong. That isn't how language works, and it is another thing that shouldn't change to fit your needs.

-----------------------------------

And finally, even if you do not understand why Gaming is so important to us. That is fine. You don't have to understand, Just understand this, or try to. We do not want women to feel like they can't game, that has never been the goal. We simply want you to stop trying to change gaming into a political thing. This goes for the men and women trying to do it. Gaming is about fun, When I play Total War I don't want establish a dynasty and conquer most of Europe (Or Japan) in real life, I play it for fun (Though there probably are crazies that think that playing a Total War game is good planning for the future, (It Isn't. The AI is crap at times))

-----------------------------
Edit - To the OP - Depending on who you ask, they want a lot of things, if you can honestly say to yourself you do not threaten people, you do not go around saying openly racist or sexist things, then you are better than the people who are decrying you for being as such. Find your friends, or make new ones, enjoy gaming.

 

[aliengmr]

Is it really that hard for people to just not give a shit?

Don't take it personally. The "They", that want to take all the boobies out of games or whatever, are very few in number. It is entirely possible to recognize something "sexist" in a game, enjoy the game, and not be some misogynist pig, I do it all the time.

Don't let opinions define you, especially from the internet.

 

[ZiggyE]

Social "Justice" is primarily a movement designed out of hatred for men, with the intention to control them. So they invent lies like "privilege" and "patriarchy" because they can't just come out and say "we hate men". Unfortunately, a large amount of people started believing their lies and now they are associated with a hate group without even knowing it.