It's that if feminists want to talk about 'male privilege' they have to admit that things like that are 'female privileges'The Almighty Aardvark said:
What do people actually want male gamers to be like?
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So you're saying that every woman experiences stuff like this every single day? How could you possibly know that? That's just a sexist blanket statement and I think it's disgusting that you can take a brief look at his problems and say 'well we face worse every day'. Seriously enough with the oppression olympics crap.Proto Taco said:
I have no idea if that's what happened but if it did that's the worst excuse anyone could ever give "it's OK because other people do it too" Really?Proto Taco said:
That's a stupid comparison. You're comparing a favorable review to 'releasing documents to the public, in an act that will at minimum get you fired from your job, because you think what they're doing is wrong'. You may as well be comparing her to Deep Throat.Proto Taco said:
Yes all women everywhere on the internet get this bile, all of them. Sure.Proto Taco said:
Let's unpack that point-by-point:Grampy_bone said:
1) Privilege does not mean there is something inherently wrong with you, just that you are receiving unearned benefits.
2) Privilege can diminish and someday perhaps even vanish entirely. But it certainly won't if we pretend it doesn't exist.
3) No one is asking anyone to apologize for being privileged. Recognition of it is all that is being asked for.
4) As for quality of argument or degree of character, it is important to note that one's assessment of a person's arguments or character can be colored by assumptions that derive from the experience of privilege. So, what you claim is "unbiased" might not actually be unbiased.
So, your whole argument is based on a caricature of the social justice argument.
Actually, they don't, since you clearly misunderstand the concept. Privilege is this case is not a specific benefit, or even a list of benefits that members of the privileged group enjoy. Rather, privilege is the net benefit experienced by members of the group.WhiteNachos said:
There are cases where women benefit from being women, but they are far less numerous and generally less significant than the cases where men benefit from being men. The structural advantage is in favor of men.
However, it is important that even though men benefit on the whole, patriarchal values can still be destructive towards them. It's part of the reason why everyone really should be a feminist. For guys, it's not just altruism on our part. We all stand to gain.
People experience life as individuals, net benefit to "the group" is really inconsequential to a persons quality of argument, primarily because discrediting a persons argument or to say is is more subject to criticisms based on who made the argument is an ad hominem attack.
And I still get a real racist vibe off this whole "privilege" conversation.
And I still get a real racist vibe off this whole "privilege" conversation.
More significant? And now you're getting into subjectivity. I posted a link above about how men get longer sentences than women for the same crimes. Seems pretty significant to me. So does the draft. Oh sure we'll probably not use it, but still men are the only ones forced to be on the draft and I consider being drafted to basically be enslaved.entelechy said:
But fine what shall we call the advantages women have in society over men?
You know from my point of view it just seems like feminist use the patriarchy as a giant cop out. Oh yeah that stuff that harms men is from the patriarchy, and when we're fighting the vague nebulous patriarchy we're really fighting for you guys, even if we aren't actually speaking about men's issues.QuietlyListening said:
Then you are a very strange person.Glen Compton said:
When you're spoiled for choices, They tend to mean less for you (i.e.: "Another one? Put it on the pile.").
And don't get it twisted. I can identify with White, Yellow, Brown, Green, Steel-Plated, Furry, Male, Female, or Other. That really isn't an achievement, it's pretty damn default for me.
But... You know what, it really is hard to describe it without a frame of reference. Maybe there just isn't one. It's kinda a much lesser version of what "White Privilege" really is: It's nothing you have been given, it's what you haven't had taken away (or in this case, held back).
I don't know how you are, but you can't say "well, I don't mind so there can't be a problem". You may not connect with characters you share similarities with, but I certainly have. Not an exact match for race, or gender, or age, but if I shared even one of those in common with a character (well, maybe not gender. As a man, I was just as spoiled for choices there), I usually connected with them first.
And here's something funny. Even if that's not true for you (or you don't recognize/admit it), it's a real force in entertainment across the board, not just video games. It is why so many Western videogame protagonists are brown-haired white guys, why the protagonists of Harem anime are so damn bland. Why the commanders of 80% of RTS games rarely get a name beyond some variation of "Commander".
Agreed on the brownhaired guys, maybe something in Japan makes I don't know actual Japanese viewers like bland(I don't know, it's a guess). As for Commander in RTS games, it's that a good thing? A broad title that could appeal to anyone playing? That you the player are in control? I felt more connected with the first starcraft games than I did with 2 because I wasn't Ryanor or Kerrigan(Then again this could just be because the story went loopy).SAMAS said:
Since the value of these advantages are subjective, who has the net benefit is equally as subjective. So saying one group is privileged over the other is really just an opinion.entelechy said:
And now we're playing Oppression Olympics I think
I think you're playing the "pretend these problems don't exist" game. If real life were an RPG where you only get to make one character, and you wanted to stack the most bonuses -- you'd roll up a straight, white male. (Maybe you would roll up something different if you like a challenge, but that would just be admitting that the bonuses favor straight, white men.)WhiteNachos said:
I'm saying that 'women have it worse then men when you add everything up' is an opinion.entelechy said:
And another thing, if we're going to admit both sides have problems what good does it do to label one group as privileged? Clearly we don't enough power to remove the double standards that hurt us.
And privileged is really bad rhetoric. The word invokes images of people who live in luxury and don't have any huge struggles (except maybe the unavoidable ones like a death in the family). So you have to spend time explaining to people who take offense at it.
Privilege as a concept comes from the Sociological studies of racism and prejudice. By itself it has nothing to do with Feminist Theory or theories of Patriarchy (Which is not taught by the by in any Sociological classes... Because Patriarchy is not a Sociological concept, but a Feminist Theory Concept.).
In fact, under standard Sociological versions of Privilege, we find that one's skin color is far more powerful in stating privilege than one's gender is. Black males, for example, have it far harder in our society than white females do. White females experience far greater Privilege than Black Males do. A Black woman, therefore has one of the least amount of Privileges in society, a gay black woman even more so.
This, however, as a concept was never intended to be wielded as a cudgel to make straight white males feel guilty, or to feel terrible about themselves. Far to many in the gamer circles lately are taking this discussion of Privilege as using it as almost a religious experience, or way of feeling smug to look down on others.
It should not be brought in a manner like I've seen it many times in this thread. Telling straight white male gamers "it's going to hurt, but you have an unfair advantage, and you just have to deal with losing your Privilege." The Sociological theory never intended that, and for gawd fucking sake people, that's the worst way in the world to even try and get someone to accept the concept in the first place.
Privilege, while an important concept, is more of a noun, than a verb like it's being used. "Check your Privilege" is probably one of the worst phrases to come about in the goals of gender and racial equality.
Instead it should be illustrated in the manner of things such as "Don't you think it's kinda horrible how African-Americans get harassed by the police more than anyone else does? As Whites, we don't have to put up with that same sort of thing."
Or in Videogame context
"Don't you think it's kinda sad, all these games keep having us murder our girlfriends lately for drama? Huh, you wonder why they never flip that stuff on it's head? What do you think would happen if a game had us playing girl characters murdering our boyfriends because of stupid reasons? We've don't have to put up with that as much...cause we're guys. That's a Privilege."
Now on the whole of characters being sexualized...I have very strong feelings about this. I don't agree with many of the current thought out there that says having sexualized characters in a videogame is a bad thing. That brings up a negative view of sex, something I'm vehemently against. If anything, I would prefer more characters, in T+ level games made sexy... Sex is awesome, and a beautiful thing, and being sexualized does not inherently remove someone's value as a person (Unless that is ALL the character brings to the table, is being a fuck object, and even that gets complicated when you bring up the Prostitutes in GTA, that is just being a reflection of reality and is an entirely different discussion.)
But bring on more characters like Kratos, Nathan Drake, Solid Snake, Adult Link, and other male characters I've had my female game playing friends find sexy. There's nothing wrong with having a character be sexy.
In fact, under standard Sociological versions of Privilege, we find that one's skin color is far more powerful in stating privilege than one's gender is. Black males, for example, have it far harder in our society than white females do. White females experience far greater Privilege than Black Males do. A Black woman, therefore has one of the least amount of Privileges in society, a gay black woman even more so.
This, however, as a concept was never intended to be wielded as a cudgel to make straight white males feel guilty, or to feel terrible about themselves. Far to many in the gamer circles lately are taking this discussion of Privilege as using it as almost a religious experience, or way of feeling smug to look down on others.
It should not be brought in a manner like I've seen it many times in this thread. Telling straight white male gamers "it's going to hurt, but you have an unfair advantage, and you just have to deal with losing your Privilege." The Sociological theory never intended that, and for gawd fucking sake people, that's the worst way in the world to even try and get someone to accept the concept in the first place.
Privilege, while an important concept, is more of a noun, than a verb like it's being used. "Check your Privilege" is probably one of the worst phrases to come about in the goals of gender and racial equality.
Instead it should be illustrated in the manner of things such as "Don't you think it's kinda horrible how African-Americans get harassed by the police more than anyone else does? As Whites, we don't have to put up with that same sort of thing."
Or in Videogame context
"Don't you think it's kinda sad, all these games keep having us murder our girlfriends lately for drama? Huh, you wonder why they never flip that stuff on it's head? What do you think would happen if a game had us playing girl characters murdering our boyfriends because of stupid reasons? We've don't have to put up with that as much...cause we're guys. That's a Privilege."
Now on the whole of characters being sexualized...I have very strong feelings about this. I don't agree with many of the current thought out there that says having sexualized characters in a videogame is a bad thing. That brings up a negative view of sex, something I'm vehemently against. If anything, I would prefer more characters, in T+ level games made sexy... Sex is awesome, and a beautiful thing, and being sexualized does not inherently remove someone's value as a person (Unless that is ALL the character brings to the table, is being a fuck object, and even that gets complicated when you bring up the Prostitutes in GTA, that is just being a reflection of reality and is an entirely different discussion.)
But bring on more characters like Kratos, Nathan Drake, Solid Snake, Adult Link, and other male characters I've had my female game playing friends find sexy. There's nothing wrong with having a character be sexy.
I feel like this statement illustrates that this conversation about "privilege" really is a cover for prejudiced shaming of people for Race,Gender, and Sex.entelechy said:
You are literally calling out groups to target.
I am not saying racism doesn't exist, but I am certain MORE racism isn't the answer.
Seriously, stop categorizing and judging people as groups, that is LITERALLY prejudice! Telling people they don't deserve the things they worked for will only insult them, and drawing lines will just makes racism worse.
Please be more considerate about these sorts of sensitive issues and stick to discussing your own experiences in life, instead of making assumption about everyone else and degrading them in the process.
OMFG! Thank you!Orphan81 said:
So would you say that privilege is something that we can use as a lens to view prejudice through?
For instance, by knowing how we are treated, we can strive for others get the same treatment?
If so, this is what I have been saying for a while, but everyone just want to use it to dismiss others opinion and claim they need to be knocked down a peg.
I want every one to be treated as well as the most privileged of us, not bring everyone down to the lowest level.
Exactly. This is what privilege is meant to be used for. It's not meant to be some aspect to make someone with it feel bad. It's used to help see where prejudice exists that we might not be aware of. It's why my favorite go to example, is Law Enforcement and African Americans.Glen Compton said:
The facts on that issue clearly show, there's a bias in terms of police stopping and harassing African-Americans, or African-Americans being incarcerated more for the same crimes whites do. That's a Privilge we as whites have... we get off easier in this aspect..
But that isn't suppose to be to make us feel bad. It's suppose to actually make us feel outraged. "Why the fuck are cops always harassing/shooting/ect black dudes for being black?"
Knowing privilege is a useful tool for recognizing when our society is unequal. But it has been turned into a weapon and is being highly miss used by others.
And that's whats getting left behind sadly. Everyone likes feeling their on the "right" side, and well, I'm seeing far to often lately the "side" claiming Videogames are nothing but misogynistic rape/murder simulators that are created purely for the enjoyment of Straight White Males, are misusing these concepts in an attempt to make Straight White Males feel guilty purely for being a straight white male.Glen Compton said:
And as a Sociology Grad Student interested in prejudice, I can't say I'm exactly happy with what I'm witnessing.
There's another factor we've found in discussion of privilege that's also more powerful than just being a white male... and that's your class...
To often in these discussions, Class is being ignored as a factor of privilege and it's arguably the most powerful aspect of privilege after Race, placing gender as a third, possibly tied with sexual orientation.
Class is being ignored so much, and it pisses me the fuck off. A poor white male, has far less privilege than a middle class white woman does. The middle class white woman is far more likely to go to college, to get into a better job, and make far more money and have more power in society than the poor or working class white male does...
And that's why so many white males are getting pissed off.... Because the white privilege thing does exist...but it's also affected by so many other factors out there... and if you happen to be a poor or working class white, the benefits of being white seem like small potatoes to the consequences of being poor.