What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[Grampy_bone]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

And for folks to stop making death and rape threats, and to stop thinking that's "okay" or "just part of the culture." It's not okay.

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause. And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

So you tell people there is something inherently wrong with them, that they can never get rid off, that they need to apologize for, and they need to defer to other people based solely on this reason alone and not the merit of their arguments or the quality of their character? It's just a bunch of nonsense meant to exert control over you.

"SJW privilege" = Original Sin.

Seriously, this shit is bananas. When SJWs say people need to listen, what they mean is "accept whatever I say uncritically, don't question, don't argue." This is a fundamentally prejudiced belief system because it judges people by what they are, not who they are. "Oh because you have a made-up, self-diagnosed illness I'm not allowed to disagree with you?" Get bent. It's despicable and all free-thinking persons should reject it. SJW privilege and oppression are complete and utter nonsense.

This is what the original topic creator is upset about, being told that he needs to apologize simply for existing. It's horseshit and I am sick and tired of it. Don't give in to this stupid bullying and intimidation.

 

[Kuzz]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

And for folks to stop making death and rape threats, and to stop thinking that's "okay" or "just part of the culture." It's not okay.

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause. And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

So you tell people there is something inherently wrong with them, that they can never get rid off, that they need to apologize for, and they need to defer to other people based solely on this reason alone and not the merit of their arguments or the quality of their character? It's just a bunch of nonsense meant to exert control over you.

"SJW privilege" = Original Sin.

Seriously, this shit is bananas. When SJWs say people need to listen, what they mean is "accept whatever I say uncritically, don't question, don't argue." This is a fundamentally prejudiced belief system because it judges people by what they are, not who they are. "Oh because you have a made-up, self-diagnosed illness I'm not allowed to disagree with you?" Get bent. It's despicable and all free-thinking persons should reject it. SJW privilege and oppression are complete and utter nonsense.

This is what the original topic creator is upset about, being told that he needs to apologize simply for existing. It's horseshit and I am sick and tired of it. Don't give in to this stupid bullying and intimidation.

This explains SJW philosophy great:

http://www.plasticbrickautomaton.com/?id=101

I try my best to understand and respect different ideas and beliefs, but how can anyone believe in this SJW bs? There is no reasonable explanation. And they are so crazy, they think anyone who doesn't agree with them is on the wrong side of history! Seriously, wtf? They call people who don't agree with them worse than ISIS, but they are no less radical than ISIS.

 

[QuietlyListening]

I see you are trying to make is sound better, but at its core you are still shaming people for aspects of themselves they have no control over.

when you say "You're white and male and you should recognize that many of the structures in society favor you over people who are not white males." That is both a racist and a sexist statement! It IS, no matter how you want to frame it as well intended...

You are making sweeping statements about someones experiences based on their sex and race. Couple that with all the hate and prejudice that is directed at white males for the actions of the 1% that is the ruling class, and you are perpetuating racism.

One last thing you really do not understand about equality, it isn't about tearing people and structures down to build an equal society. It is about making the CURRENT society equal by treating PEOPLE as equals. Outing people for being different is not the right path, and will only cause resistance. Everyone needs to be brought UP to the same level, not tearing down people that are perceived to have privilege.

By your idea, since attractive people have the most privilege (and they absolutely do, regardless of race), they should be made ugly, instead of treat everyone like they are beautiful.

It's a statement of fact. It's not saying that you are inherently better or worse than other people, just that society treats you differently. You're not a bad person because of it, but whether you asked for it or not, privilege benefits you. Unless of course you do think that these structures don't exist. In which case, you're willfully ignorant.

And this isn't some harrison burgeron story where people should be penalized for their accidents of birth. Quite the opposite, in fact. I do want people treated like equals. But equality is more than explicit statements of law. And it's more than simply saying, "I view all people equally." If there are structures that don't treat people equally, those structures need to be identified and fixed.

To use your attractiveness example, because looks do play a large part in privilege...looks are often associated with competence, even though there is no reasoning behind this. For instance, fat people are seen as inherently less intelligent as their thin counterparts.

For an example of male privilege, look at the "boobs on the ground" jokes on Fox about the Israeli fighter pilot bombing ISIS. Just by being a woman, her competency is questioned and her contribution and skill is publicly undermined on a major news channel. Or take the recent news of Yelena Serova, the first female cosmonaut in 17 years. What questions does she get asked? How will she style her hair in zero g and how will she bond with her daughter while she's in space. This is largely due to the fact that society values women based on their appearance and mothering rather than their aptitude. And the guys making the jokes, and the people asking the questions don't think it's any big deal. It just comes naturally. But it is a big deal. Devaluing someone's bravery and skill just because of their gender is wrong, and it should be called out.

The insidious thing about privilege is that it isn't intentional. No one's being the bad guy actively oppressing people. But oppression happens all the same. Whether it's through malice or ignorance, people are not treated equally for all sorts of reasons. There are tons of examples for people's worth being devalued for all sorts of irrelevant reasons, often by people who don't think any better of it. But that's why the privilege conversation needs to happen. Because people should think better of it.


Edit: For the sake of a little levity, consider it another way. If the word privilege scares you, think of it as a bubble. Since we've brought up the attractiveness/unattractiveness privilege argument, 30 Rock puts it well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15MwhPv3Ud4

For context: Jon Hamm's character is terrible at most things, but due to his attractive features he gets special treatment all the time. However, for him, it's not special. It's just the way life is.

 

[Glen Compton]

None of those were direct examples of privilege. You are projecting that onto the people who made those comments and questions, all of which were the actions of individuals, and not acting as agreed representatives of their race/gender/sex.

Maybe I just have a different view of how to approach equality, but I still don't think it is going to lead to anything positive by focusing on this concept of privilege. All it results in is overtly racist conversations under the guise of academia, and when people are attacking each other over the internet about it, it all looks like hate-speech.

I am sorry, but I don't think you are going to convince me it is okay to categorize people, even for the sake of equality. That feels like doublespeak to me.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.

It didn't even just start here. It's been going on for years. And y'know what, because what the fuck else was I supposed to do, I tried to meet people's standards. I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off.

That's your first mistake. The worst that will happen is that they will be mildly creeped out and will probably forget about it by the end of the day. If they aren't in the mood to talk and you don't pick up on that then you'll probably just be a minor nuisance at worst. What's worse, never talking to people or mildly annoying a few.

Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover.

I've never seen that happen, ever. I think you're being paranoid

For the past year or so, anytime I've gone outside, I've lived by the rules that have been set down for me lest I be doxxed, shamed, and exiled from any nerd community.

Rules that you think have been laid out. These are not people who control the world, they are people talking about stuff on the internet, they don't get to set the rules for all of humanity's social discourse.

Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.

It's different people with different opinions. You will never please them all. Instead of trying to please them all, consider the idea that they have to convince YOU that you should do what they want you to do. If you don't see any benefit to yourself then they have to convince you that you're a bad person if you don't do what they say.

I'm sick of it, and I just want a clear fucking answer, y'know? Because fact is, this isn't going away. There's gonna be another set of rules, so I may as well at least be clear on what the fuck they are this time.

/rant

The only real rules are the law. There are social taboos too and if you don't know what those are the last people to trust are people with an agenda.

 

[WhiteNachos]

It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause.

...

And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

I can sum up this post as "if you think your rights are being violated, shut up, you don't know what you're talking about and you should just defer to whoever is claiming that what they're doing is for equality".

I've seen SJWs and feminists try to justify double standard and unequal treatment by saying one group is privileged so I'm not buying this. Also in general 'don't speak your disagreements or argue with us' never sits well.

 

[WhiteNachos]

I'm sorry I don't see exactly where I was privileged. Everyone hated me in school. I only got my first proper job a few months ago, and had to quit because of anxiety. I was born with aspergers syndrome, and my ineptitude socially and physically has long saw me exiled for not being a real man. Not denying that some people have it worse, but honestly, considering that through my entire life, I have crawled through a river of shit, only now to see one of the only two things that kept me tethered to sanity under threat, you could hardly attempt to insult me more than telling me I'm goddamn privileged.

Privilege isn't a simple binary, it's a large number of them. There are a number of privileges you don't have, but that doesn't mean that you don't have any.

There's a line that gets tossed around "Which would you rather be, black or a woman?", because a black man and a white woman both have a privilege over the other, while lacking the other privilege.

Can we stop with the male/female privilege nonsense. There are societal double standards that affect women so under this definition female privileges exist.

For instance a study says that women serve shorter sentences for the same crime than men. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

So now can we drop the us vs. them, privileged vs. oppressed BS?

 

[WhiteNachos]

I don't get why these constantly get brought up. Is there a prevailing belief that Feminists don't support any of this?

It's that if feminists want to talk about 'male privilege' they have to admit that things like that are 'female privileges'

 

[WhiteNachos]

Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.

First off, I'd like to welcome you to feeling a very small fraction of what females (gamer or not) feel and have felt on a daily basis for the past several thousand years in just about every part of the world.

So you're saying that every woman experiences stuff like this every single day? How could you possibly know that? That's just a sexist blanket statement and I think it's disgusting that you can take a brief look at his problems and say 'well we face worse every day'. Seriously enough with the oppression olympics crap.

Second, yes, you ARE supposed to just not talk about it at all. If Quinn had been a man people would have long since finished sweeping this under the rug and started giving him pats on the back behind closed doors for being a 'dawg'. And no, 'journalistic integrity' isn't even remotely what this is all about. Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE knows that sexual favors are regularly traded behind the scenes in any business, but especially ones as cut throat and nihilistic as journalism.

I have no idea if that's what happened but if it did that's the worst excuse anyone could ever give "it's OK because other people do it too" Really?

Same situation as the Edward Snowden shtick; Is Snowden a good person? We dunno. Is he just seeking attention? Maybe. Is anyone surprised by his revelation that the US government is spying on us? Not even a little. Do we care who or if he slept with anyone to gain access to those files? Not even a little.

That's a stupid comparison. You're comparing a favorable review to 'releasing documents to the public, in an act that will at minimum get you fired from your job, because you think what they're doing is wrong'. You may as well be comparing her to Deep Throat.

You'd be pretty nasty too if you got the same bile spewed at you that women get for merely showing up on the internet, let alone having a life on it.

Yes all women everywhere on the internet get this bile, all of them. Sure.

 

[jademunky]

[

People want male gamers to be more like me: flawless and moustached.

You can't be both

 

[entelechy]

So you tell people there is something inherently wrong with them, that they can never get rid off, that they need to apologize for, and they need to defer to other people based solely on this reason alone and not the merit of their arguments or the quality of their character? It's just a bunch of nonsense meant to exert control over you.

Let's unpack that point-by-point:

1) Privilege does not mean there is something inherently wrong with you, just that you are receiving unearned benefits.

2) Privilege can diminish and someday perhaps even vanish entirely. But it certainly won't if we pretend it doesn't exist.

3) No one is asking anyone to apologize for being privileged. Recognition of it is all that is being asked for.

4) As for quality of argument or degree of character, it is important to note that one's assessment of a person's arguments or character can be colored by assumptions that derive from the experience of privilege. So, what you claim is "unbiased" might not actually be unbiased.

So, your whole argument is based on a caricature of the social justice argument.

 

[entelechy]

I don't get why these constantly get brought up. Is there a prevailing belief that Feminists don't support any of this?

It's that if feminists want to talk about 'male privilege' they have to admit that things like that are 'female privileges'

Actually, they don't, since you clearly misunderstand the concept. Privilege is this case is not a specific benefit, or even a list of benefits that members of the privileged group enjoy. Rather, privilege is the net benefit experienced by members of the group.

There are cases where women benefit from being women, but they are far less numerous and generally less significant than the cases where men benefit from being men. The structural advantage is in favor of men.

 

[QuietlyListening]

However, it is important that even though men benefit on the whole, patriarchal values can still be destructive towards them. It's part of the reason why everyone really should be a feminist. For guys, it's not just altruism on our part. We all stand to gain.

 

[Glen Compton]

People experience life as individuals, net benefit to "the group" is really inconsequential to a persons quality of argument, primarily because discrediting a persons argument or to say is is more subject to criticisms based on who made the argument is an ad hominem attack.

And I still get a real racist vibe off this whole "privilege" conversation.

 

[WhiteNachos]

I don't get why these constantly get brought up. Is there a prevailing belief that Feminists don't support any of this?

It's that if feminists want to talk about 'male privilege' they have to admit that things like that are 'female privileges'

Actually, they don't, since you clearly misunderstand the concept. Privilege is this case is not a specific benefit, or even a list of benefits that members of the privileged group enjoy. Rather, privilege is the net benefit experienced by members of the group.

There are cases where women benefit from being women, but they are far less numerous and generally less significant than the cases where men benefit from being men. The structural advantage is in favor of men.

More significant? And now you're getting into subjectivity. I posted a link above about how men get longer sentences than women for the same crimes. Seems pretty significant to me. So does the draft. Oh sure we'll probably not use it, but still men are the only ones forced to be on the draft and I consider being drafted to basically be enslaved.

But fine what shall we call the advantages women have in society over men?

 

[WhiteNachos]

However, it is important that even though men benefit on the whole, patriarchal values can still be destructive towards them. It's part of the reason why everyone really should be a feminist. For guys, it's not just altruism on our part. We all stand to gain.

You know from my point of view it just seems like feminist use the patriarchy as a giant cop out. Oh yeah that stuff that harms men is from the patriarchy, and when we're fighting the vague nebulous patriarchy we're really fighting for you guys, even if we aren't actually speaking about men's issues.

 

[SAMAS]

Can you point out the line in the EULA that says I can't ask for more diversity, more variety, in my video game protagonists?

So I'm gonna keep asking. And I'm gonna keep mocking them every time I get yet another 30-ish white guy with brown hair, most likely closely cropped, and a five-o-clock shadow.

I guess I would have to ask what your obsession with race or gender is? It sort of feels like a porn fetish to me.

Then you are a very strange person.

I have never been off put that the protagonist for most JRPGs are Asian dudes or women. I just immerse myself into the plot and become the character I am playing.

If I needed to relate to the main character, I would probably hate most movies, tv shows, and books I read as well. I am nothing like most of my favorite characters, but I love them for what they are, not what I see of myself in them.

When you're spoiled for choices, They tend to mean less for you (i.e.: "Another one? Put it on the pile.").

And don't get it twisted. I can identify with White, Yellow, Brown, Green, Steel-Plated, Furry, Male, Female, or Other. That really isn't an achievement, it's pretty damn default for me.

But... You know what, it really is hard to describe it without a frame of reference. Maybe there just isn't one. It's kinda a much lesser version of what "White Privilege" really is: It's nothing you have been given, it's what you haven't had taken away (or in this case, held back).

I don't know how you are, but you can't say "well, I don't mind so there can't be a problem". You may not connect with characters you share similarities with, but I certainly have. Not an exact match for race, or gender, or age, but if I shared even one of those in common with a character (well, maybe not gender. As a man, I was just as spoiled for choices there), I usually connected with them first.

And here's something funny. Even if that's not true for you (or you don't recognize/admit it), it's a real force in entertainment across the board, not just video games. It is why so many Western videogame protagonists are brown-haired white guys, why the protagonists of Harem anime are so damn bland. Why the commanders of 80% of RTS games rarely get a name beyond some variation of "Commander".

 

[MerlinCross]

And here's something funny. Even if that's not true for you (or you don't recognize/admit it), it's a real force in entertainment across the board, not just video games. It is why so many Western videogame protagonists are brown-haired white guys, why the protagonists of Harem anime are so damn bland. Why the commanders of 80% of RTS games rarely get a name beyond some variation of "Commander".

Agreed on the brownhaired guys, maybe something in Japan makes I don't know actual Japanese viewers like bland(I don't know, it's a guess). As for Commander in RTS games, it's that a good thing? A broad title that could appeal to anyone playing? That you the player are in control? I felt more connected with the first starcraft games than I did with 2 because I wasn't Ryanor or Kerrigan(Then again this could just be because the story went loopy).

 

[entelechy]

More significant? And now you're getting into subjectivity. I posted a link above about how men get longer sentences than women for the same crimes. Seems pretty significant to me. So does the draft. Oh sure we'll probably not use it, but still men are the only ones forced to be on the draft and I consider being drafted to basically be enslaved.

But fine what shall we call the advantages women have in society over men?

How about advantages? In this context, privilege is about net benefit. Sure there are specific cases where women are better off than men, but that completely fails to address the argument.

 

[WhiteNachos]

More significant? And now you're getting into subjectivity. I posted a link above about how men get longer sentences than women for the same crimes. Seems pretty significant to me. So does the draft. Oh sure we'll probably not use it, but still men are the only ones forced to be on the draft and I consider being drafted to basically be enslaved.

But fine what shall we call the advantages women have in society over men?

How about advantages? In this context, privilege is about net benefit. Sure there are specific cases where women are better off than men, but that completely fails to address the argument.

Since the value of these advantages are subjective, who has the net benefit is equally as subjective. So saying one group is privileged over the other is really just an opinion.

And now we're playing Oppression Olympics I think