What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[entelechy]

Since the value of these advantages are subjective, who has the net benefit is equally as subjective. So saying one group is privileged over the other is really just an opinion.

And now we're playing Oppression Olympics I think

I think you're playing the "pretend these problems don't exist" game. If real life were an RPG where you only get to make one character, and you wanted to stack the most bonuses -- you'd roll up a straight, white male. (Maybe you would roll up something different if you like a challenge, but that would just be admitting that the bonuses favor straight, white men.)

 

[WhiteNachos]

Since the value of these advantages are subjective, who has the net benefit is equally as subjective. So saying one group is privileged over the other is really just an opinion.

And now we're playing Oppression Olympics I think

I think you're playing the "pretend these problems don't exist" game. If real life were an RPG where you only get to make one character, and you wanted to stack the most bonuses -- you'd roll up a straight, white male. (Maybe you would roll up something different if you like a challenge, but that would just be admitting that the bonuses favor straight, white men.)

I'm saying that 'women have it worse then men when you add everything up' is an opinion.

And another thing, if we're going to admit both sides have problems what good does it do to label one group as privileged? Clearly we don't enough power to remove the double standards that hurt us.

And privileged is really bad rhetoric. The word invokes images of people who live in luxury and don't have any huge struggles (except maybe the unavoidable ones like a death in the family). So you have to spend time explaining to people who take offense at it.

 

[Orphan81]

Privilege as a concept comes from the Sociological studies of racism and prejudice. By itself it has nothing to do with Feminist Theory or theories of Patriarchy (Which is not taught by the by in any Sociological classes... Because Patriarchy is not a Sociological concept, but a Feminist Theory Concept.).

In fact, under standard Sociological versions of Privilege, we find that one's skin color is far more powerful in stating privilege than one's gender is. Black males, for example, have it far harder in our society than white females do. White females experience far greater Privilege than Black Males do. A Black woman, therefore has one of the least amount of Privileges in society, a gay black woman even more so.

This, however, as a concept was never intended to be wielded as a cudgel to make straight white males feel guilty, or to feel terrible about themselves. Far to many in the gamer circles lately are taking this discussion of Privilege as using it as almost a religious experience, or way of feeling smug to look down on others.

It should not be brought in a manner like I've seen it many times in this thread. Telling straight white male gamers "it's going to hurt, but you have an unfair advantage, and you just have to deal with losing your Privilege." The Sociological theory never intended that, and for gawd fucking sake people, that's the worst way in the world to even try and get someone to accept the concept in the first place.

Privilege, while an important concept, is more of a noun, than a verb like it's being used. "Check your Privilege" is probably one of the worst phrases to come about in the goals of gender and racial equality.

Instead it should be illustrated in the manner of things such as "Don't you think it's kinda horrible how African-Americans get harassed by the police more than anyone else does? As Whites, we don't have to put up with that same sort of thing."

Or in Videogame context
"Don't you think it's kinda sad, all these games keep having us murder our girlfriends lately for drama? Huh, you wonder why they never flip that stuff on it's head? What do you think would happen if a game had us playing girl characters murdering our boyfriends because of stupid reasons? We've don't have to put up with that as much...cause we're guys. That's a Privilege."

Now on the whole of characters being sexualized...I have very strong feelings about this. I don't agree with many of the current thought out there that says having sexualized characters in a videogame is a bad thing. That brings up a negative view of sex, something I'm vehemently against. If anything, I would prefer more characters, in T+ level games made sexy... Sex is awesome, and a beautiful thing, and being sexualized does not inherently remove someone's value as a person (Unless that is ALL the character brings to the table, is being a fuck object, and even that gets complicated when you bring up the Prostitutes in GTA, that is just being a reflection of reality and is an entirely different discussion.)

But bring on more characters like Kratos, Nathan Drake, Solid Snake, Adult Link, and other male characters I've had my female game playing friends find sexy. There's nothing wrong with having a character be sexy.

 

[Glen Compton]

Since the value of these advantages are subjective, who has the net benefit is equally as subjective. So saying one group is privileged over the other is really just an opinion.

And now we're playing Oppression Olympics I think

I think you're playing the "pretend these problems don't exist" game. If real life were an RPG where you only get to make one character, and you wanted to stack the most bonuses -- you'd roll up a straight, white male. (Maybe you would roll up something different if you like a challenge, but that would just be admitting that the bonuses favor straight, white men.)

I feel like this statement illustrates that this conversation about "privilege" really is a cover for prejudiced shaming of people for Race,Gender, and Sex.

You are literally calling out groups to target.

I am not saying racism doesn't exist, but I am certain MORE racism isn't the answer.
Seriously, stop categorizing and judging people as groups, that is LITERALLY prejudice! Telling people they don't deserve the things they worked for will only insult them, and drawing lines will just makes racism worse.

Please be more considerate about these sorts of sensitive issues and stick to discussing your own experiences in life, instead of making assumption about everyone else and degrading them in the process.

 

[Glen Compton]

Privilege as a concept comes from the Sociological studies of racism and prejudice. By itself it has nothing to do with Feminist Theory or theories of Patriarchy (Which is not taught by the by in any Sociological classes... Because Patriarchy is not a Sociological concept, but a Feminist Theory Concept.).

In fact, under standard Sociological versions of Privilege, we find that one's skin color is far more powerful in stating privilege than one's gender is. Black males, for example, have it far harder in our society than white females do. White females experience far greater Privilege than Black Males do. A Black woman, therefore has one of the least amount of Privileges in society, a gay black woman even more so.

This, however, as a concept was never intended to be wielded as a cudgel to make straight white males feel guilty, or to feel terrible about themselves. Far to many in the gamer circles lately are taking this discussion of Privilege as using it as almost a religious experience, or way of feeling smug to look down on others.

It should not be brought in a manner like I've seen it many times in this thread. Telling straight white male gamers "it's going to hurt, but you have an unfair advantage, and you just have to deal with losing your Privilege." The Sociological theory never intended that, and for gawd fucking sake people, that's the worst way in the world to even try and get someone to accept the concept in the first place.

Privilege, while an important concept, is more of a noun, than a verb like it's being used. "Check your Privilege" is probably one of the worst phrases to come about in the goals of gender and racial equality.

Instead it should be illustrated in the manner of things such as "Don't you think it's kinda horrible how African-Americans get harassed by the police more than anyone else does? As Whites, we don't have to put up with that same sort of thing."

Or in Videogame context
"Don't you think it's kinda sad, all these games keep having us murder our girlfriends lately for drama? Huh, you wonder why they never flip that stuff on it's head? What do you think would happen if a game had us playing girl characters murdering our boyfriends because of stupid reasons? We've don't have to put up with that as much...cause we're guys. That's a Privilege."

Now on the whole of characters being sexualized...I have very strong feelings about this. I don't agree with many of the current thought out there that says having sexualized characters in a videogame is a bad thing. That brings up a negative view of sex, something I'm vehemently against. If anything, I would prefer more characters, in T+ level games made sexy... Sex is awesome, and a beautiful thing, and being sexualized does not inherently remove someone's value as a person (Unless that is ALL the character brings to the table, is being a fuck object, and even that gets complicated when you bring up the Prostitutes in GTA, that is just being a reflection of reality and is an entirely different discussion.)

But bring on more characters like Kratos, Nathan Drake, Solid Snake, Adult Link, and other male characters I've had my female game playing friends find sexy. There's nothing wrong with having a character be sexy.

OMFG! Thank you!

So would you say that privilege is something that we can use as a lens to view prejudice through?

For instance, by knowing how we are treated, we can strive for others get the same treatment?

If so, this is what I have been saying for a while, but everyone just want to use it to dismiss others opinion and claim they need to be knocked down a peg.

I want every one to be treated as well as the most privileged of us, not bring everyone down to the lowest level.

 

[Orphan81]

OMFG! Thank you!

So would you say that privilege is something that we can use as a lens to view prejudice through?

For instance, by knowing how we are treated, we can strive for others get the same treatment?

Exactly. This is what privilege is meant to be used for. It's not meant to be some aspect to make someone with it feel bad. It's used to help see where prejudice exists that we might not be aware of. It's why my favorite go to example, is Law Enforcement and African Americans.

The facts on that issue clearly show, there's a bias in terms of police stopping and harassing African-Americans, or African-Americans being incarcerated more for the same crimes whites do. That's a Privilge we as whites have... we get off easier in this aspect..

But that isn't suppose to be to make us feel bad. It's suppose to actually make us feel outraged. "Why the fuck are cops always harassing/shooting/ect black dudes for being black?"

Knowing privilege is a useful tool for recognizing when our society is unequal. But it has been turned into a weapon and is being highly miss used by others.

If so, this is what I have been saying for a while, but everyone just want to use it to dismiss others opinion and claim they need to be knocked down a peg.

I want every one to be treated as well as the most privileged of us, not bring everyone down to the lowest level.

And that's whats getting left behind sadly. Everyone likes feeling their on the "right" side, and well, I'm seeing far to often lately the "side" claiming Videogames are nothing but misogynistic rape/murder simulators that are created purely for the enjoyment of Straight White Males, are misusing these concepts in an attempt to make Straight White Males feel guilty purely for being a straight white male.

And as a Sociology Grad Student interested in prejudice, I can't say I'm exactly happy with what I'm witnessing.

There's another factor we've found in discussion of privilege that's also more powerful than just being a white male... and that's your class...

To often in these discussions, Class is being ignored as a factor of privilege and it's arguably the most powerful aspect of privilege after Race, placing gender as a third, possibly tied with sexual orientation.

Class is being ignored so much, and it pisses me the fuck off. A poor white male, has far less privilege than a middle class white woman does. The middle class white woman is far more likely to go to college, to get into a better job, and make far more money and have more power in society than the poor or working class white male does...

And that's why so many white males are getting pissed off.... Because the white privilege thing does exist...but it's also affected by so many other factors out there... and if you happen to be a poor or working class white, the benefits of being white seem like small potatoes to the consequences of being poor.

 

[Glen Compton]

Class is being ignored so much, and it pisses me the fuck off.

I couldn't agree more!

I think maybe the fact that the "one percent" in western culture tends to be predominantly white though gives the wrong impression about how far that privilege stretches across class.

Why do you think people are misappropriating the concept of privilege? It is, without a doubt, a popular trend. I don't get the impression that people see how overtly prejudiced these conversation sound and then act like they are having an academic discussion.

 

[Glen Compton]

Can you point out the line in the EULA that says I can't ask for more diversity, more variety, in my video game protagonists?

So I'm gonna keep asking. And I'm gonna keep mocking them every time I get yet another 30-ish white guy with brown hair, most likely closely cropped, and a five-o-clock shadow.

I guess I would have to ask what your obsession with race or gender is? It sort of feels like a porn fetish to me.

Then you are a very strange person.

Well I suppose should elaborate.

I would understand a desire for more diversity in the type of games or the type of story being told in a game. I am all for this as well.

If a games story includes or stars a minority, then that is fine. I will still judge that game based on it's gameplay and/or plot all the same.

Yet to complain about games that do not have them seems like a superficial complaint based on preference. The reason i made the parallel to pornography was because it was one of the few things I could think of where preferring a particular race or gender over another is generally considered "okay."

I think more people should be out there making diverse games, with diverse gameplay, diverse characters, and diverse stories, but I DO NOT think people who aren't deserve mockery for not doing so.

 

[entelechy]

I think you're playing the "pretend these problems don't exist" game. If real life were an RPG where you only get to make one character, and you wanted to stack the most bonuses -- you'd roll up a straight, white male. (Maybe you would roll up something different if you like a challenge, but that would just be admitting that the bonuses favor straight, white men.)

I'm saying that 'women have it worse then men when you add everything up' is an opinion.

An opinion held by anyone with a lick of sense. But do go on being pedantic about this.

And privileged is really bad rhetoric. The word invokes images of people who live in luxury and don't have any huge struggles (except maybe the unavoidable ones like a death in the family). So you have to spend time explaining to people who take offense at it.

Strangely, the concept only really seems to be difficult for people who want to pretend these problems don't exist. Most people get it with one explanation. The ones that don't all share a hostility towards social justice. That must be pure coincidence, though.

 

[entelechy]

I feel like this statement illustrates that this conversation about "privilege" really is a cover for prejudiced shaming of people for Race,Gender, and Sex.

You are literally calling out groups to target.

I have no idea how you extract such an ugly meaning from a clear statement.

All I said was that if you wanted to put life on easy mode, you'd play as a straight, white, male. There is no "targeting" or scorn. It's not like it's a white person's fault that it's more convenient to be white. It just is.

Telling people they don't deserve the things they worked for will only insult them, and drawing lines will just makes racism worse.

These are not things they worked for. These are the bonuses they get with no effort at all. In fact, it is incredibly fucking insensitive for a member of a privileged group to deny this and act like every last bit of their gains is purely due to their individual talents.

 

[Glen Compton]

I feel like this statement illustrates that this conversation about "privilege" really is a cover for prejudiced shaming of people for Race,Gender, and Sex.

You are literally calling out groups to target.

I have no idea how you extract such an ugly meaning from a clear statement.

All I said was that if you wanted to put life on easy mode, you'd play as a straight, white, male.

Astonishing how I inferred your clear prejudice in statements such as these.

 

[Glen Compton]

I feel like this statement illustrates that this conversation about "privilege" really is a cover for prejudiced shaming of people for Race,Gender, and Sex.

You are literally calling out groups to target.

I have no idea how you extract such an ugly meaning from a clear statement.

All I said was that if you wanted to put life on easy mode, you'd play as a straight, white, male.

Astonishing how I inferred your clear prejudice in statements such as these.

A prejudice towards truth. It offsets your prejudice against reading comprehension.

Seriously, are you really this thick or are you just trying to bait me?

So petty insults is the best you have for a defense?
I am pretty sure what you have said speaks for itself.

 

[Dragonlayer]

[

People want male gamers to be more like me: flawless and moustached.

You can't be both

*Gasp*

BLASPHEMY!

 

[WhiteNachos]

I think you're playing the "pretend these problems don't exist" game. If real life were an RPG where you only get to make one character, and you wanted to stack the most bonuses -- you'd roll up a straight, white male. (Maybe you would roll up something different if you like a challenge, but that would just be admitting that the bonuses favor straight, white men.)

I'm saying that 'women have it worse then men when you add everything up' is an opinion.

An opinion held by anyone with a lick of sense. But do go on being pedantic about this.

It's not pedantic to say that you're stating an opinion as a fact. And you really think "everyone with sense agrees with my opinion"? Really? Do you just not want to consider the idea you might be wrong?

You're saying all women in every country/culture have it worse than the men in those same places (because that's what it means to say all women are privileged)? You know not every problem men have to put up with is some minor issue so since we're comparing significant issues it's a bold claim to say it's always worse for women everywhere. Back it up.

And privileged is really bad rhetoric. The word invokes images of people who live in luxury and don't have any huge struggles (except maybe the unavoidable ones like a death in the family). So you have to spend time explaining to people who take offense at it.

Strangely, the concept only really seems to be difficult for people who want to pretend these problems don't exist.

Every time someone first hears the term they always think 'are you saying I don't have problems in life', regardless of what they believe. And if this is some passive aggressive shot at me, I've never said women don't have problems.

Most people get it with one explanation. The ones that don't all share a hostility towards social justice. That must be pure coincidence, though.

If it requires explanation why use it all? It's like calling people bastards then having to explain 'oh no I'm not calling you a bad person, I'm saying your parents aren't married, you bastard'. At best its ineffective communication because you have to waste time explaining it and at worst it's passive aggressive.

 

[WhiteNachos]

I feel like this statement illustrates that this conversation about "privilege" really is a cover for prejudiced shaming of people for Race,Gender, and Sex.

You are literally calling out groups to target.

I have no idea how you extract such an ugly meaning from a clear statement.

All I said was that if you wanted to put life on easy mode, you'd play as a straight, white, male.

Saying someone's life is on easy mode is no different than saying their life is easy. Straight white male leaves room for extreme poverty, birth defects, mental or physical handicaps, abusive parents, and all sorts of other horrible things. Anyone who says they'd rather be a poor white man than the daughter of a rich black couple (all else being equal) is probably lying.

Telling people they don't deserve the things they worked for will only insult them, and drawing lines will just makes racism worse.

These are not things they worked for. These are the bonuses they get with no effort at all. In fact, it is incredibly fucking insensitive for a member of a privileged group to deny this and act like every last bit of their gains is purely due to their individual talents.

Has calling someone's disagreements insensitive ever been convincing? I mean to me it just makes it seem like the person can't handle disagreements.

 

[entelechy]

So petty insults is the best you have for a defense?
I am pretty sure what you have said speaks for itself.

No seriously, your argument makes no sense. Stating that being white makes life easier than being black is not racism, it's just an observation of reality. Are you contending that racism occurs as soon as I mention the categories white and black? Because if that's what you're saying than you are essentially arguing that any discussion of racial disparities that mentions race is automatically racist. Which is to say, you are arguing that we can't talk about such disparities at all. That is fucking ridiculous. You don't get to call my views racist because you're allergic to discussion.

 

[entelechy]

Saying someone's life is on easy mode is no different than saying their life is easy. Straight white male leaves room for extreme poverty, birth defects, mental or physical handicaps, abusive parents, and all sorts of other horrible things. Anyone who says they'd rather be a poor white man than the daughter of a rich black couple (all else being equal) is probably lying.

Yes, there are other kinds of privilege. I fully agree. But, let's go back to the character creation analogy. While it's true that being born into wealth grants better bonuses than being white, or male, or straight, you can stack those bonuses. Even if poor, straight, white male has lower total bonuses than rich, black, gay female -- you could still switch any of the latter three options for even better bonuses.

The term male privilege refers to the net positive effect of being male. This effect could easily be dwarfed by, say, being disabled. But the effect is still there.

 

[Glen Compton]

So petty insults is the best you have for a defense?
I am pretty sure what you have said speaks for itself.

No seriously, your argument makes no sense. Stating that being white makes life easier than being black is not racism, it's just an observation of reality. Are you contending that racism occurs as soon as I mention the categories white and black? Because if that's what you're saying than you are essentially arguing that any discussion of racial disparities that mentions race is automatically racist. Which is to say, you are arguing that we can't talk about such disparities at all. That is fucking ridiculous. You don't get to call my views racist because you're allergic to discussion.

Nope, I am saying your approach to the conversation reveals prejudice on your part.

Some people consider race an important part of their identity, to ignore that part of a person who identifies themselves that way, would be an insult.

On the other hand, making assumptions about someone's experiences in life based on their race, well that reveals prejudice. You can only testify to your OWN experiences in life. You can try to be empathetic to people as a thought experiment, but you don't get assume what life IS like for them based on what you THINK it would be like. Even as a member of a particular demographic, you do not represent the group, but only yourself. Ideology is great but can cloud judgment, and statistics can be skewed to make any point, what is important in topics like these are to share your OWN experiences, not make assumptions about others.

More to the point, what is life like for you? What have you experienced that reflects your views?

 

[WhiteNachos]

Saying someone's life is on easy mode is no different than saying their life is easy. Straight white male leaves room for extreme poverty, birth defects, mental or physical handicaps, abusive parents, and all sorts of other horrible things. Anyone who says they'd rather be a poor white man than the daughter of a rich black couple (all else being equal) is probably lying.

Yes, there are other kinds of privilege. I fully agree. But, let's go back to the character creation analogy. While it's true that being born into wealth grants better bonuses than being white, or male, or straight, you can stack those bonuses. Even if poor, straight, white male has lower total bonuses than rich, black, gay female -- you could still switch any of the latter three options for even better bonuses.

The term male privilege refers to the net positive effect of being male. This effect could easily be dwarfed by, say, being disabled. But the effect is still there.

I know what the term means, but calling it easy mode is insulting.

 

[entelechy]

First you said this:

Has calling someone's disagreements insensitive ever been convincing? I mean to me it just makes it seem like the person can't handle disagreements.

Then you said this:

I know what the term means, but calling it easy mode is insulting.

So, therefore, we can conclude that you can't handle disagreements.