What if We Leveled Backwards?!

[BlueSinbad]

It's an alright starting concept to be honest, few things to think about around it to make it a bit more plausible..
and actually I liked it in Final Fantasy 8 where you had your abilities stripped and you could only get a few of them back, that was a good idea in my opinion, kind of the same thing as Yatz is on about.

 

[LucidSeraph]

The idea makes some sense in terms of balancing multiplayer games with RPG elements and so forth, but in many single player games I think it would somewhat cause problems with story. After all, if you're at your most powerful at the start, then surely you would just go after the main villian to begin with rather than fuck about becoming weaker for several hours.

that is what story gates in single player games are for. If the storyline progresses linearly, you will have difficulty in going off to curbstomp the final boss. How can you even FIND the guy if you haven't completed the other quests first?

As to preventing you from completing the 'easier' quests, perhaps it's more that you get no reward from doing so even if they ARE available. As you defeat the larger threats, the forces you face become weaker IN RESPONSE to you doing so. Killing the plague rats won't help you when you're level one billion, because you will 1. become weaker through contact anyway, rendering you incapable of defeating the more pertinent threats, and 2. they will just keep coming if you haven't defeated the Plague Rat King first, who is a much more powerful enemy that you NEED to be at your Strong Young Guy levels to touch.

 

[thespis721]

I think that's a good concept. I've dreamed about that kind gameplay before... in my eyes though, instead of a simple leveling down and losing of abilities, you start off at a high level and as you level down, you lose all your magic and powers and such, however, aligning with the narrative, you gain different abilities. Like you lose powers like "Ice Storm ALL ENEMIES DIE!!!" and when approapriate to the narrative/gameplay you gain a power like Adrenaline rush, which has it so that when you kill X amount of creatures, you get a temporary stat boost or "Tiger in the Corner" where you get a stat boost when you're at low health.

See it could work in an end game perspective because if you are facing a final boss and start killing his minions he throws at you, you boost with Adrenaline Rush and then when you're low on health, you boost again to Tiger in the Corner and that helps the narrative of reaching your lowest point but still pulling out the win. Or there's a sword in the room you can't use unless you have 10 strength and Tiger + Adrenaline give you a +10 strength bonus so you can pick up the sword for a short period of time and use it against the final boss. Tons to play around with.

 

[Prof. Monkeypox]

An interesting idea for sure, I definitely think the idea of "the brash young thug" versus the "old, but wise discipline" is an interesting one indeed. At most, any game that utilizes the system would be experimental, but I'd like to see it (and many of your other hypotheticals) tried out at least once (for the insight it might bring).

On another note. This idea reminds me of the end boss from Okami. After going through all the effort to collect new spells and powers, being stripped of your abilities, and forced to fight the boss when you thought it was hopeless -only to ultimately grow more powerful than when you began- was a powerful moment that turned the ending from merely decent to incredibly memorable in my eyes.

 

[Nimzar]

Change the name and I'd give it a try.

What you don't think tfɔɹkɹɑ foʊ dləɹoʊ sounds awesome?

 

[Frotality]

you know how the dwarven origin in DAO has you start in epic royal armor, abusing peons, and ordering assassinations like fast food, then takes it all away, reducing you to nothing? you know how thats the best origin in the game?

i certainly had fun with with it, and spreading that out over an entire game could be alot of fun with an engrossing enough story. i can only see it working for single player games though, MMOs are meant to never truly 'end' and i cant really see how the high(low?) level content would persist with that system; could be a great game, but has to be a game with an ending.

the story potential here is great as well... great opportunity for a tragic hero protagonist, sowing the seeds of his own slow downfall.

 

[robmastaflex]

The idea makes some sense in terms of balancing multiplayer games with RPG elements and so forth, but in many single player games I think it would somewhat cause problems with story. After all, if you're at your most powerful at the start, then surely you would just go after the main villian to begin with rather than fuck about becoming weaker for several hours.

that is what story gates in single player games are for. If the storyline progresses linearly, you will have difficulty in going off to curbstomp the final boss. How can you even FIND the guy if you haven't completed the other quests first?

As to preventing you from completing the 'easier' quests, perhaps it's more that you get no reward from doing so even if they ARE available. As you defeat the larger threats, the forces you face become weaker IN RESPONSE to you doing so. Killing the plague rats won't help you when you're level one billion, because you will 1. become weaker through contact anyway, rendering you incapable of defeating the more pertinent threats, and 2. they will just keep coming if you haven't defeated the Plague Rat King first, who is a much more powerful enemy that you NEED to be at your Strong Young Guy levels to touch.

I meant more in story terms rather than gameplay. Whilst the storyline may force you down a single path to weaken you before the final encounter, it would feel weird getting weaker to confront this final enemy. It would require some convoluted story piece to give a reason as to why you have to spend your time losing power in order to confront your ultimate enemy rather than taking down your greatest threat first.

 

[WanderingFool]

I like the idea to an extent, I think it could certainly work. I think it would suit an action-oriented game like Devil May Cry where defeating enemies is dependent on your skills and reactions, maybe more so than a turn-based and/or strategic game like most RPGs are these days.

(I am also willing to bet that there's at least one flash game out there that uses the concept.)

EDIT: Oh, and also FIRST. tehe.

I think for some games the leveling down idea could really work.

Picture this: You start off as an arrogant demigod, and the ruler of the gods decided to teach your sorry ass some humility. So he dicided to send you to defeat this opposing force, which as you are now wouldnt be a problem, but he also decided to take away you demigod status, and over time your powers and abilities leave you as well. Progress through the story, throwing in a love intrest for plot purposes, and have the final battle come about, but your character is so weak, he is actually scared to fight, and runs away, leavinf the small group of warrior and such (oh yeah, you get one of those too) as well as you love interest to fight the opposing force, and they lose, obviously. Unable to bare it all, you decide to end your own life, begging forgiveness from the gods you were once part of, as well as your friends (yeah, the group you travel with becomes your friends during this time). At this point, the ruler of the gods decided you have learned humility, and spares you of your attempt at death. He than tells you to go and fight the final boss, which you do, and over this time, you regain your demigod status, and procede to beat the ever living fuck out of the opposing force and the final boss.

Than there some kind of fitting ending and what-have-you...

But yeah, not that bad of idea... unless you go the MMO way, than I still dont think it will work...

 

[LucidSeraph]

On another note. This idea reminds me of the end boss from Okami. After going through all the effort to collect new spells and powers, being stripped of your abilities, and forced to fight the boss when you thought it was hopeless -only to ultimately grow more powerful than when you began- was a powerful moment that turned the ending from merely decent to incredibly memorable in my eyes.

I'd say that this is considerably different in tone, though - I think it cheapens the concept here if you suddenly become much stronger at the last moment. It'd mean more if you're a wizened old dude or a small child with a wooden sword facing down some inner demon.



Might even be funny/poignant if you have an archnemesis throughout the game who gets weaker with you, so by the end you are two cranky guys with sticks wailing on each other.


You know what I'm more reminded of, and think would be a better parallel, is the ending of Planescape: Torment. In that game, the BEST ending is gained by defeating the final boss not through weapons or power, but through words. You have the option to engage in philosophical debate with the end boss - who is, in fact, quite powerful and difficult to defeat even if you have gained great power. Doing so will net you an ending that is both the best AND terribly sad - you die. Permanently. By merging with this being of true entropy that you yourself created - that in some sense actually IS you - you can finally lay down and rest.

Which I think is the kind of thing you'd want in an ending of a game like this. In the end, you fight your greatest battles through cleverness and words, and your reward is one last sleep, a lasting peace.

 

[Dastardly]

Extra Punctuation: What if We Leveled Backwards?!

Yahtzee's crazy idea for RPGs that might actually work.

Read Full Article

As an exercise, I think it would depend mostly on novelty. But I think that exercise could turn up some interesting data on how to incorporate this type of gameplay into the more "normal" stuff. For instance, a game in which both types of leveling happen--as some of your stats are going up, others are on the way down, so the further you specialize the more powerful (but far narrower) you become.

Of course, the downside of something like that for an MMO is that it puts a firm shelf-life on your character. You can always pump a stat and make a "stronger enemy" for the expansion... but there comes a point where you just can't make things much weaker, so the character becomes obsolete.

 

[Tarkand]

The main problem with the concept is that as you lose abilities, the game will become more and more 'same-y' and boring.

To take your TfD example - if all a level '1' mage has is Fireball and Mana Shield, he's going to be very boring to play and have very little possible combat tactics. Or in Darksiders... fully unlocked War is a lot more fun to play than pansy 'I only have 2 attacks!' War.

I think the main issue you're trying to fix anyway is that difficulties need to be scaled better. In Darksiders for example, Tiamat (the first boss you encounter) is actually the hardest boss in the game (I believe you even mentionned that in your video)... the problem doesn't lay in the fact that when you face the next bosses, you have more health/gadgets... it lays in the fact that the other bosses aren't scaled up properly - They don't hit harder than Tiamat did... but you now have 3 times the health.

It seems like an easy problem to fix... scale the game better. While an entertaining idea, the reverse leveling thing seems like an overly complicated way to solve the problem.

 

[Flatfrog]

That. Sounds. AWESOME!!!!

In fact, I have an idea. While every stat gets lowered, one should go up. Intelligence. That could help with the "Wise old man on a mountain top".

This is what I was thinking - as you lose weaponry and armour, you gain in other skills like stealth. It would be great in the context of a soldiering game. A very simple mechanic would just be to have a game with no ammo or health packs - start off fully equipped, then as you use up your weapons or your armour becomes useless, you have to leave it behind and rely more on skill. That would also give you the option to save up some of the weapons for later.

 

[TheCakeisALie87]

I love this idea not just because it would finally make final bosses difficult again, but also it would add the sort of capstone moment where an experienced player stripped down and weak is able to beat a challenge he was unable to do while fully powered. Maybe the "final" boss of the game is able to escape, only to hunt you down while you are older and weak thinking you an easy kill. Finally and most importantly it would simultaneously make a good strong ending (you stab the final boss one last time to know that it is finally over) or an easy sequel (the old you teaches a younger better you) without needing any cliffhangers. Keep the universe but not the character. True you would still need a new baddie...but that is what zombies are for.

 

[thebreadbinman]

Why can't you just make the enemies stronger or more frequent rather than making yourself weaker?
Action games do it, so why can't RPG's?

If I started off Fallout being able to have any gun, hack any computer and pick any lock, then I'd get bored really easily. But by levelling up, I was REWARD with these skills. Taking them away is like being punished for hardwork, and people would be hesitant to go any further lest they loose their favourite sword or whatever.

 

[Falseprophet]

I meant more in story terms rather than gameplay. Whilst the storyline may force you down a single path to weaken you before the final encounter, it would feel weird getting weaker to confront this final enemy. It would require some convoluted story piece to give a reason as to why you have to spend your time losing power in order to confront your ultimate enemy rather than taking down your greatest threat first.

Well, off the top of my head, how about Mega Man in reverse?

Say you have some fantasy setting where your Ultimate Champion of the Realm PC gets his powers from, well any number, but let's say four, archmages or gods or what have you. The Dark Lord comes and starts corrupting the Four, who are fighting back but losing. So you have to go and stop the corruption (because you do not want the Dark Lord getting your powers) but in the process, have to kill the Four gods one by one, losing the powers they gave you in the process. At the end, you face the Dark Lord without any of those granted powers, but at least you've prevented him from getting them.

It supports the tragic theme of some Tolkien-esque fantasy where the magic and the wonder leaves the world at the end of the story. Not really good for an MMO but maybe a single-player RPG or action/adventure title.

 

[Catalyst6]

By the gods, it's a Monk Quest. You start out bold and brash, then strip away everything you have until you're left weak and frail, but wise and knowledgeable. I guess the final quest would involve sitting under a tree and meditating, eh?

 

[SilverUchiha]

It all makes sense and I like the idea a lot. However, I think that, for a final showdown, you should have some way of powering back up to bring the final fight to a climactic showdown. that's just a thought. Overall, the idea still seems like something worth trying out.

 

[crotalidian]

Dammit. I had an Idea very similar to this about 3 weeks ago after watching the disempowerment rev rant...

glad to see more people coming up with ways to challenge the medium to evolve and not stagnate in dusty middle eastern cities

 

[Flatfrog]

In fact, I can think of a (single-player) game I've been playing recently that has almost *exactly* this structure: Worms Armageddon. In that game you play 'deathmatch' games against AI opponents of increasing skill with progressively fewer and fewer Worms on your team, until by the higher levels you're facing twenty or more opponents with just two Worms. This would work fine in a multiplayer context too, and would make for a great way for noobs to get into the game - it's essentially the same as a golf handicap.

 

[theriddlen]

And at the end, you fight a homeless man for bread... and lose.