What is being homophobic?

[generals3]

Not frenching. French kissing/making out/whatever you want to call it. That's a different situation. We're talking about an innocent kiss. Maybe a bit a tongue, maybe not, all in all, an innocent kiss that occurs between a man and woman and two women daily. Not outright frenching. Basic affection. Affection done out of love. Not sexualized. Turning an innocent kiss into a sexualized incident actually is more or less a perfect example of projective disgust, not saying you did that.

Well I think we have had a communication issue here. I have always used the word frenching because that is what i had in mind. I wouldn't find two guys showing less explicit signs of affections "disgusting", maybe 'weird' but not something that would make want to look the other way.

 

[Daffy F]

Projective disgust, boys and girls, in a nutshell.

Alright I read most of your posts and I understand what you're saying but honestly if you want people to see your point of view you need to stop being so hostile. [/protip]

 

[dvd_72]

That makes a surprizing amount of sense. If you put yourself into the position of either of a lesbian couple, you would still kiss a woman, which would be nice if you are attracted to that woman.
The point is, if you should feel directly disgusted if you would end up kissing a guy, or just not have the positive effect of kissing a woman you are attracted to.

I dont find it disgusting to kiss a woman per se, it depends on the individual, as it does with men. I actually have tried it and wasnt disgusted, it was just a kiss without all the excitement I experiance when kissing a guy I'm attracted to.

Fair enough, maybe it's different for different people.

 

[Jenvas1306]

An interessting example:
Imagine you are with your partner, whom you love deeply (or imagine such a person if youre single at the moment), and you happen to see an old couple, they are holding hands, looking at each other in that lovers way, maybe kissing decently. Isnt that sort of a cute image? doesnt it make you think of being with your partner for that long time and still having so much love for each other?

If your reaction is different based on that couple being a man and a woman, two women or two men, then society might have brain washed you.

My reaction would be different for those things, but that's OK.

I would prefer to see two women making out, or a guy and a girl, than two guys making out. That's just preference.
Back to your example:
What if the man was 82, and the girl 19? The man tiny and the woman morbidly obese? One guy a wealthy businessman and his partner a homeless bum? One person obviously mentally handicapped and the other not?

Would your reaction be different to these scenarios? Or has society brain washed you too?

why is he wealthy but she looks homeless? If they are together, why doesnt he care for her?
in this example, imagining to be in the shoes of the wealthy guy. I would be kissing a probably unwashed woman, which I would find disgusting, if its the case at all. thats personal, not depending on gender. with him, it depends on what kind of guy he is, but his wealth is probably not disgusting.

I am sure more attracted to men of my age, a difference of so many decades wouldnt be for me. there is even disgust involved, I wouldnt want to make out with my father and men at his age or even older make me think of that, society has brainwashed me to not like incest...I guess? I also dont think at such an age difference they got too much in common, and there might be only one thing going on, but I dont know that for sure.

I dont really find a tiny man disgusting, lots of men are smaller than me anyways, I would wonder about other things there. My mind can be a weird place. I find morbidly obese people pretty unattractive, even potentially disgusting, that is sure a mixture of personal prefferences and social indoctrination, but also the knowledge about how unhealthy it is, like with people who are tanned like a fried chicken.

Mentally handicapped hmm? thats tuogh and really depends on the individual. I know that people with downssyndrome are often the most friendly and open hearted people you can find, and I sure find those traits attractive, but I also value it highly to be on one intelectual level with my partner.

so, you see, I tend to analyze my initial reaction and I'm certainly not a blank slate, but I try to make sure that my thought process is not based on something compleetly irrational.

 

[BringBackBuck]

Projective disgust, boys and girls, in a nutshell.

Alright I read most of your posts and I understand what you're saying but honestly if you want people to see your point of view you need to stop being so hostile. [/protip]

Actually, I think he was doing alright, until this post:

You indirectly just compared homosexuality to incest.

You lost me there

 

[101flyboy]

An interessting example:
Imagine you are with your partner, whom you love deeply (or imagine such a person if youre single at the moment), and you happen to see an old couple, they are holding hands, looking at each other in that lovers way, maybe kissing decently. Isnt that sort of a cute image? doesnt it make you think of being with your partner for that long time and still having so much love for each other?

If your reaction is different based on that couple being a man and a woman, two women or two men, then society might have brain washed you.

My reaction would be different for those things, but that's OK.

I would prefer to see two women making out, or a guy and a girl, than two guys making out. That's just preference.
Back to your example:
What if the man was 82, and the girl 19? The man tiny and the woman morbidly obese? One guy a wealthy businessman and his partner a homeless bum? One person obviously mentally handicapped and the other not?

Would your reaction be different to these scenarios? Or has society brain washed you too?

Every single theoretical situation you just gave, there is a quantifiable reason for having a bias against these things. Quantifiable, doesn't necessarily mean justifiable. But quantifiable.

With that being said, an attractive older couple I don't see people considering disgusting; more like beautiful and reveling the fact they look good for their ages. People are naturally drawn to things that are attractive/they find attractive, that's just how it is. An attractive overweight individual is going to be considered attractive regardless of their weight as long as they aren't completely obese (aka Adele, Queen Latifah).

Preferences are based on taste. The taste of most persons are centralized around what/who they find appealing, and attractive. What they get a benefit from.

However, just because something isn't in your preference range does not mean that thing is disgusting, unnatural or wrong. It's those mentalities that are largely socially/culturally constructed. And what society as a whole considers attractive vs not attractive from a taste point of view is also largely social/cultural constructs. Because tastes can and do change from individual to individual as they go through life.

 

[101flyboy]

Not frenching. French kissing/making out/whatever you want to call it. That's a different situation. We're talking about an innocent kiss. Maybe a bit a tongue, maybe not, all in all, an innocent kiss that occurs between a man and woman and two women daily. Not outright frenching. Basic affection. Affection done out of love. Not sexualized. Turning an innocent kiss into a sexualized incident actually is more or less a perfect example of projective disgust, not saying you did that.

Well I think we have had a communication issue here. I have always used the word frenching because that is what i had in mind. I wouldn't find two guys showing less explicit signs of affections "disgusting", maybe 'weird' but not something that would make want to look the other way.

Maybe we do have a communication issue haha. I was going by what the OP said where he said basic displays of affection between two guys bothered him. Check his post. He said holding hands bothered him into basically having convulsions. And basic kissing he couldn't handle at all. Even the inference of it he can't seemingly handle.

Now, if we were talking about deep kissing, that's sexual. That's understandable, you wouldn't want to see two guys deep kissing because you wouldn't personally want to see two guys tearing into each other. Your mind will undoutedly go to sex because deep kissing is an aggressive act. It's a lustful act. I don't want to see two women deep kissing, I don't find it disgusting. But I don't want to see it. That's more of a sexuality thing, than a taste thing.

I'm not one of those anti-PDA types but deep kissing of any kind bothers me in public because it's inconsiderate and rude. But a couple of any gender combination showing some affection that doesn't cross the proverbial line of respect shouldn't be classified as disgusting for expressing their love for one another.

 

[Jenvas1306]

For the record, I voted for the SPD. If I had any interest in preventing homosexuality from becoming tolerated my vote would have gone to the CDU or even the aforementioned NPD.

I made this extremely obvious. But you missed it, because you're so desperately trying to paint me as a homophobic ****. What I actually post in this thread is irrelevant to you, because you see what you want to see.

CDU isnt quite a choice if you arent over 60, or so old you'd like to assure a place in heaven by voting the party that states religion in its name. you could vote FDP to make sure to support gays, as they have westerwelle, but then, hes not really that much of a politican to my liking...
jokes aside (Piraten are a joke in themselves, too easy) you will often see that those who fight intolerance tend to get aggressive a bit too easily, its just natural if you try to fight something that has often to do with people simply not wanting to know better. We are all human after all.

I find the sentiment absolutely ridiculous on numerous levels. For starters, I don't really care for marriage anyway, so protecting its supposed sancity isn't an interest of mine. Second, I do not think marriage is something the state or church should have any hand in. Third, I have no problem with two men or two woman getting married.

how can you not care for marriage? It includes legal options you wouldnt otherwise have, like making decissions if your partner cant (as in medical decissions). It also offers advantages in job and taxes and you are able to adopt, for example.

cant help it, but I think I'm forgetting something important about marriage...

 

[BringBackBuck]

so, you see, I tend to analyze my initial reaction and I'm certainly not a blank slate, but I try to make sure that my thought process is not based on something compleetly irrational.

I guess that was my point. Initial reactions can often be way off the mark. In the example where one person was handicapped, my initial reaction would be: Is he taking advantage of her? How does that relationship work with such an imbalance? That's a bit gross that he would want to make out with her, etc.
If I then met this couple and it turns out that they had been together for 20 years until his wife had a stroke and with her diminished mental capacity is still capable of being in love with her husband, and he still cares for her and loves her deeply, than I would think "man I was a bit of a dick for thinking their relationship was odd when I first saw them".

Maybe that's what some of the people posting here have. For many people they have very limited exposure to the sight of two guys making out. Maybe their initial reaction to 2 dudes making out is based on all sorts of irrational and stupid reasons, and then if they sat down and had a beer with those 2 guys and realised they were a couple of really nice people they would come to the same conclusion of: "man I was a bit of a dick for thinking their relationship was odd when I first saw them".

 

[Ren_Li]

You're not a homophobic. I get the same feeling when I see 2 men kissing to, I also get the same feeling when I see my parents kiss as well doesn't mean anything.

You indirectly just compared homosexuality to incest.

Jeez. No. Just no.

He is comparing his attraction to men as being about the same as his attraction his parents. And since both cases are uncomfortable because of a lack of attraction, it's a pretty okay analogy.
It would also work with any other individuals he's completely unattracted to, but since everyone is attracted to different things it could be confusing, and since it may involve pointing out a certain group of individuals it could be offensive. Parents are unoffensive and none-confusing. It's a good analogy.

I can't believe I just typed that post explaining how he is NOT comparing homosexuality to incest.

 

[m19]

I don't have a problem with gays being gays or getting married. But I do feel a gag reflex upon witnessing men kissing and turn away in disgust.

If that's technically homophobia I see nothing wrong with it. I cringe at many things heterosexual couples do. I don't tell any of them how to live their lives or curse at them for being who they are. But certain things I just do not wish to witness.

 

[generals3]

Maybe we do have a communication issue haha. I was going by what the OP said where he said basic displays of affection between two guys bothered him. Check his post. He said holding hands bothered him into basically having convulsions. And basic kissing he couldn't handle at all. Even the inference of it he can't seemingly handle.

Now, if we were talking about deep kissing, that's sexual. That's understandable, you wouldn't want to see two guys deep kissing because you wouldn't personally want to see two guys tearing into each other. Your mind will undoutedly go to sex because deep kissing is an aggressive act. It's a lustful act. I don't want to see two women deep kissing, I don't find it disgusting. But I don't want to see it. That's more of a sexuality thing, than a taste thing.

I'm not one of those anti-PDA types but deep kissing of any kind bothers me in public because it's inconsiderate and rude. But a couple of any gender combination showing some affection that doesn't cross the proverbial line of respect shouldn't be classified as disgusting for expressing their love for one another.

I see it now. My mind was actually focused on the OP's first paragraph (it's almost as if the second one went straight out of my brain). And it's also probably because here when people say "we kissed" it implies tongue and everything. (Considering I speak french the whole "frenching" expression isn't used at all, the definition of kissing is based on the context and in "romantic" contexts it usually equates to frenching)

 

[101flyboy]

Projective disgust, boys and girls, in a nutshell.

Alright I read most of your posts and I understand what you're saying but honestly if you want people to see your point of view you need to stop being so hostile. [/protip]

I'm not really trying to be hostile. At all. Especially the last couple pages, I haven't found anything to be hostile about. I don't get hostile over internet messages, I'm forceful but I'm not angry or anything. If I'm angry I'd turn to insults In this case I'm just stating a position in a powerful way, it's how I debate. I hate lecturing people because I hate being lectured so I make strong points and allow people to respond in turn. I don't want to treat people like children who can't make a point themselves unless I approve it and have them walking on eggshells, or have to spoonfed my points to people.

 

[Jenvas1306]

You're not a homophobic. I get the same feeling when I see 2 men kissing to, I also get the same feeling when I see my parents kiss as well doesn't mean anything.

You indirectly just compared homosexuality to incest.

Jeez. No. Just no.

He is comparing his attraction to men as being about the same as his attraction his parents. And since both cases are uncomfortable because of a lack of attraction, it's a pretty okay analogy.
It would also work with any other individuals he's completely unattracted to, but since everyone is attracted to different things it could be confusing, and since it may involve pointing out a certain group of individuals it could be offensive. Parents are unoffensive and none-confusing. It's a good analogy.

I can't believe I just typed that post explaining how he is NOT comparing homosexuality to incest.

we should allways ask why, thats a fundamental part of being human in my opinion. Incest has its social stigma as to the consequences, it could lead to offspring with disabilities due to the lack of two different sets of chromosomes. Therfor it has an actual reason.

How is that for homosexual couples? Do they risk to make anyone suffer or limit someones abilities in life? They just can not easily procreate.

So comparing both seems like you think homosexuality would have a potential for such negative consequences, aka it being bad and unhealthy.

 

[101flyboy]

You're not a homophobic. I get the same feeling when I see 2 men kissing to, I also get the same feeling when I see my parents kiss as well doesn't mean anything.

You indirectly just compared homosexuality to incest.

Jeez. No. Just no.

He is comparing his attraction to men as being about the same as his attraction his parents. And since both cases are uncomfortable because of a lack of attraction, it's a pretty okay analogy.
It would also work with any other individuals he's completely unattracted to, but since everyone is attracted to different things it could be confusing, and since it may involve pointing out a certain group of individuals it could be offensive. Parents are unoffensive and none-confusing. It's a good analogy.

I can't believe I just typed that post explaining how he is NOT comparing homosexuality to incest.

Here's the thing. People aren't attracted to their PARENTS kissing because it is their PARENTS. Because it's your mother and father. Because thinking of them in any state of sexual attraction is considered perverted to most people, which is quantifiable if not justifiable. Thinking of them making out, seeing them make out. It's almost like seeing a pieces of you kissing. It's your blood, your family. The man and woman who raised you. People don't just feel the way they do about their parents having sex, showing affection, etc. without reason. People don't feel that way about their family members without reason. There are legitimate quantifiable reasons to not want to see your parents kissing.

Lack of attraction doesn't=disgust. You can be not attracted to something and also not disgusted by it.

 

[101flyboy]

Maybe we do have a communication issue haha. I was going by what the OP said where he said basic displays of affection between two guys bothered him. Check his post. He said holding hands bothered him into basically having convulsions. And basic kissing he couldn't handle at all. Even the inference of it he can't seemingly handle.

Now, if we were talking about deep kissing, that's sexual. That's understandable, you wouldn't want to see two guys deep kissing because you wouldn't personally want to see two guys tearing into each other. Your mind will undoutedly go to sex because deep kissing is an aggressive act. It's a lustful act. I don't want to see two women deep kissing, I don't find it disgusting. But I don't want to see it. That's more of a sexuality thing, than a taste thing.

I'm not one of those anti-PDA types but deep kissing of any kind bothers me in public because it's inconsiderate and rude. But a couple of any gender combination showing some affection that doesn't cross the proverbial line of respect shouldn't be classified as disgusting for expressing their love for one another.

I see it now. My mind was actually focused on the OP's first paragraph (it's almost as if the second one went straight out of my brain). And it's also probably because here when people say "we kissed" it implies tongue and everything. (Considering I speak french the whole "frenching" expression isn't used at all, the definition of kissing is based on the context and in "romantic" contexts it usually equates to frenching)

OK I understand. I think there is a big difference, personally, between romantic kissing and sexual kissing. Yes, there are definitely different levels of kissing, and different reactions to these different forms of kissing.

Yeah, the first paragraph Aaron wrote one could take as making a statement, maybe overexaggerating a bit to make his point, but making his point nonetheless, without completely more or less crossing the line. But he said a lot, lot more than just "I don't like to see two guys french kissing". I guess we are less further apart on our views of kissing in general than we thought.

 

[Ren_Li]

we should allways ask why, thats a fundamental part of being human in my opinion. Incest has its social stigma as to the consequences, it could lead to offspring with disabilities due to the lack of two different sets of chromosomes. Therfor it has an actual reason.

How is that for homosexual couples? Do they risk to make anyone suffer or limit someones abilities in life? They just can not easily procreate.

So comparing both seems like you think homosexuality would have a potential for such negative consequences, aka it being bad and unhealthy.

Okay, so let's talk about another group I have absolutely zero attraction to which has absolutely zero negative consequences on reproduction or health.

Men with beards. I cannot look at a man with a beard and find him remotely attractive. I can think he looks cool, or interesting, or any other positive thing that has absolutely nothing to do with my loins. Not attractive, and the idea of picturing him in a sexual situation makes me shudder.
This is such a strong reaction to me that when my fiance- male- hasn't shaved for a few days, I can't find HIM attractive either. (Thankfully he's extremely blonde so stubble isn't glaringly obvious, but if I feel it that's an insta-turn-off.)

And yes. I would find two men with beards sexually kissing unpleasant. Or a man with a beard sexually kissing a woman. Because kissing- and I'm talking about making out, not about chaste kissing- making out implies sexuality. It comes across as a sexual act. And my brain, whilst not repulsed by men with beards generally, IS repulsed by actually contemplating men, with beards, having sex.

Because I am completely unattracted to them.

Now this is getting a bit abstract, because "men with beards" is a pretty unusual thing to be so totally uninterested in. Parents are a very, VERY common thing to be totally uninterested in, so it's useful for an instantly understandable analogy.
I could also bring up age or weight, but to be honest you could bring up health and/or potential negative consequences there too, whereas men with beards? Yeah, it's pretty weird for my testicles to go to sleep at facial hair but it's an example without negativity attached to it, so hopefully it's making my point.

Again. Chaste kissing is not my point here. Dudes with beards, I promise not to bat an eyelash if you peck each other on your none-hairy facial areas or hold hands or hug. Do anything sexual, and yes, I'll be very uncomfortable.
Just like I would if my parents did it, and just like most straight people are with gay people of the opposite sex.

...And just like most gay people would be as well, actually, with the people THEY'RE not attracted to. We simply don't want to think about the sexual activity of people we're 100% not into.

 

[m19]

Kissing or sex are intimate acts that go hand in hand with attraction. I cannot feel indifferent towards it. It's either great or it's a turn off. The idea of kissing a man is a turn off i.e. disgust. I don't see why it's an issue that things you do may disgust other people. Your life is yours and theirs is theirs.

 

[101flyboy]

I think part of the problem and why some of us are talking on top of each other is..............what exactly form of kissing is everyone talking about? Because it's clear some are talking basic affection, some making out, some in-between. I'm going by what the OP said. He said even the inference of two men showing any affection causes him seizures and whatever else. Not wanting to see people making out is a completely different situation. Kissing vs making out. Making out is sexual, actual extended deep kissing, it's an aggressive act. That's a whole different scenario than a 5 second kiss, pecks on the cheek, quick lip kiss.

This thread has more or less turned into sex ed.

 

[101flyboy]

You say that... but then there's the fact that you've copy-pasted that study-thing essay twice now (the entire thing, not just a single link at the bottom of your post), jumped on SmashLoves in the start for no reason at all and keep throwing around 'Projective Disgust' like a D20 in a hectic game of D&D.

If this is how you debate, I'm not that interested in debating with you because it's fucking irritating. While I do agree with you on a fair few points, I've had to fight the urge to ask whether or not your a first-year Psychology student (If you've ever gotten into an argument with a first year Psych/Bio/Philosophy student, you'd know why they're annoying) in a super-condescending way because of how you've been posting in this thread.

I get where your arguing from and what your arguing for, but... the execution could do with a dialing down from 'Nails on a Chalk Board' to 'Insistent but not irritating noise'.

I can gawk less and be less abrasive