What is being homophobic?
- Thread starter Aaron Sylvester
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I don't think weird stuff of people. In fact, the opposite is true. I tend to take people at face value. I tend to take what they say as a representation of what they are and how they operate. And from there I decide who I like, who I want to know more about, who I dislike.Aglynugga said:
You're right, everyone makes judgments. Everyone internalizes in their own way. I internalize more than most and whatever I believe from that is a reflection of what my "readings" of that person tell me to think.
You dislike PDA.Skootle13 said:
We're talking about people who are borderline fetishizing woman-woman sex, and intimacy, while also saying anything male-male is gross. That's not a "I don't like PDA" mentality. It's a "I don't like male homosexuality" mentality.
In this case, it is homophobia. The word is clearly overused and used incorrectly, but not everyone who has this mentality in regards to having an irrational revulsion of same-sex intimacy are bigoted. A large portion, of course, yes. But not quite all. They're just insecure and have internalized issues they haven't addressed.GunsmithKitten said:
Now, when they go out of their way to blame gay people for those problems or not admit they have a problem, then I dismiss them as a bigot or as simply someone who really just isn't gay accepting.
Human beings aren't snails. Human beings are not food.Abomination said:
Holding hands is SEXUAL? Greeting your partner with a kiss=sex? Um, no. First of all, you couldn't possibly know their intentions and whether or not it was sexual or not, whether they were behaving with sexualized intent when the kissed one another, or whether that kiss will turn into sex eventually. Making out is sexual, you can feel the sexual charge, you can read into it these two people are lusting one another. But basic physical affection between lovers is an expression of love.
TBH, you should address that mentality. It would save you a lot of unnecessary angst regarding your distaste of PDA. To jump from holding hands to penetrative sex is, again, projective disgust in a nutshell.
I totally get that but none of this has anything to do with kissing hahaha. I'm not laughing at you at all but it's just funny. We're talking about basic affection and you're bringing up male intercourse. Obviously, you wouldn't want to see two men fucking one another. Actually, I don't want to see anyone fucking one another up close, because sex is a personal thing and I'd feel like I'm intruding and sort of feel violated. There is no homophobia in that, but that's not what's being discussed.
That has nothing to do with men showing affection, though. Actually............no, it does, to a certain extent. The gay men=feminine=lesser men mentality. Misogyny. Homophobia is very much connected to misogyny, and so is projective disgust. Men taking and acting as women.
Most gay men aren't overtly fem, but even if they were...........so what? There is no shame in being fem. Plenty of straight men are more fem. Gay men across the board, fem and masculine, hate the fake ones, who put on a false character because they want attention. Fake guys who are insecure and aren't comfortable yet in their own skin. Can it be annoying? Yes. But we're talking about a HUMAN BEING. Not an act. Not a personality trait. Humans. And it certainly is NOT OK to reject a human being on the basis of one aspect of their personality that you a) don't understand and b) don't like because you don't understand.
So what I'm seeing more or less is, I'm OK with gay men who pass as straight or who aren't TOO gay. That's not acceptance. Everyone should try not prejudging people and get to know them first.
That's what you want to believe because you don't want to admit you may have internalized homophobia issues, and you don't want to accept you may be the one with the issue. Unfortunately for you, research has been done on this subject, and it's clear this projective disgust mentality is born from homophobia. You can either address it or it will fester and likely get worse.
I respect your honesty and I'm sorry whatever occurred in your childhood has left scars. I disagree, though, with you more or less saying low level/moderate homophobia is acceptable. It is not acceptable whatsoever. It's unhealthy, to the homophobe, to homosexual persons, and to society. Very unhealthy. We should all strive to better ourselves in the end and that means working at admitting to yourself you have internalized issues you need to deal with.thejackyl said:
Thank you Andy!Andy of Comix Inc said:
Your inability/refusal to compare the analogy between being disgusted at someone eating snails and being disgusted at watching two men kiss leads me to believe you are simply taking the Mickey.101flyboy said:
Investigate what an 'analogy' is. Before that I can not converse with you.
Of course. Harmless homophobia is, tautologically, harmless. If something hurts no-one, but helps a person find happiness/comfort, then there is nothing wrong with it. Someone finding me and my fiancée to be an unsettling concept has as much right to that feeling as we have to be in love. I'm not going to stop them if they don't stop me; live and let live, etc.Xan Krieger said:
No, it is NOT a false analogy. When seeking to emulate the feeling of disgust one might have at observing one thing they know is not wrong but still causes them pause has parallels between both. Watching someone eat snails and two homosexual men kiss (as was mentioned in the first post of this thread, stop trying to say this isn't about kissing and is about holding hands, this entire thread spawned on the premise of watching two homosexual men kiss) causes the exact same feeling of discontent in both situations in individuals.101flyboy said:
Do not just call "logical fallacy" without explaining WHY it is a logical fallacy. Both involve humans partaking in an action deemed strange (or maybe the better term is "queer") by society. Both spawn a sense of involuntary revolution. Both do not directly harm the viewer, participant or any part of society as a whole. Please explain how this is a false analogy.
Firstly, how old are you?Aaron Sylvester said:Okay firstly let me clear up where I'm coming from, I'm your typical heterosexual male aged in his 20's. And I have a dilemma - you see, I absolutely love the sight of two women kissing or getting it on. It's rather arousing, if not simply plain damn sexy as hell.
But the sight of two GUYS kissing makes my brain have a fucking seizure. I can't help it.
The definition of homophobia is "holding prejudice against homosexuals", but I hold no prejudice against a guy I meet if he tells me he's gay. Whatever, doesn't bother me, I'd still treat him the same as I treat anyone else. BUT if I saw the same guy engaging in something romantic...even something as simple as holding hands in a "we are obviously lovers" fashion with another guy...I feel the need to look away, something simply clicks in my mind and yells "oh god why did I have to see that??". An image of two guys kissing, even on the internet, makes me immediately get rid of that image as fast as my fingers allow me to and spend the next few minutes recovering from the shock of seeing such a thing, my mind desperately trying to trash that image into a virtual bin.
But I still find the sight of lesbians damn, damn sexy.
You see, what I'm asking here is why the word "homophobic" has one single definition, when I GUARANTEE you that a sizable chunk of the world's population could be classified as "homophobic" when it comes to homosexuals of their own gender, and not bothered at all by the idea of the OPPOSITE sex engaging in homosexual acts.
Case in point, I bet a lot of women find the idea of two guys getting it on quite sexy/arousing. It has to be true judging by all the stuff I find on DeviantArt (yes, that site, deal with it
Thoughts?
And of course, what would be an Escapist discussion be without a slightly relevant video
Secondly... Get over yourself.
Seriously, if the thought of two guys doing anything even moderately romantic makes your brain react like that it just comes across like you have some hella issues you need sorting. And I do not mean that in a mean way whatsoever. But seriously, if you cannot function when around homosexual men it kinda indicates that you have some issues to get over.
I assume you do not live in a very large city?
Cause if so you would spend the majority of your time recovering from random glimpses of happy gay couples.
I'm going to put mindset and irrational hate aside for this because that's a totally different ball park to knee-jerk disgust.
Here's the thing. There's a lot of people you're not going to be attracted to. For heterosexual men that includes men. Is your reaction more severe than to romantic behaviour between members of any other group you're not attracted to?
Let's use family members as an example, because I don't know what turns you off with the ladies and I don't want to be judgmental.
Does seeing, say, your parents, holding hands, bother you as much as it bothers you to see two men holding hands? If the answer is "no" then your issue with two men holding hands is that it's a sign of homosexuality, and NOT two people you're unattracted to being romantic.
Same with chaste peck kisses.
Nobody wants to be exposed to people they're completely unattracted to being intimate. That is NORMAL. Being turned off by seeing gay men doing something which would also repulse you if you caught (again, JUST as an example) your parents doing it is normal and totally not homophobic.
Being turned off by gay men doing something that you would be okay with ANY OTHER adult couple doing IS, because your issue is that they're gay. Of course it's not a reaction you're choosing to have, but that doesn't change the fact- or the reason- that you're having it.
I hope my post is coherent. It's a tricky subject and a tricky point to have to make, and I tend to be rambly at the best of times.
Oh, and kudos to being able to question your reasons for your reactions and wanting to understand yourself better.
:EDITED: I noticed a few other posts on making out. Again, same rules apply. I'd be pretty turned off by watching my parents, or my grandparents, or my brother and his lady, make out. It would also repulse me to see people of certain groups do so. In case you're wondering, the elderly and the obese. I have nothing against those people as individuals, but I don't want to see them make out any more than I want to see family members make out, because I'm NOT attracted to them. It's not ageist or fatist (is that the term?), it's simply not being attracted to them. So if a person is repulsed by watching their family members OR gay guys make out? Not homophobic.
Making out is seen as sexual and intimate and is a different thing to chaste kisses and holding hands. Some people are uncomfortable with anyone making out around them, because of the level of intimacy implied in such behaviour.
Here's the thing. There's a lot of people you're not going to be attracted to. For heterosexual men that includes men. Is your reaction more severe than to romantic behaviour between members of any other group you're not attracted to?
Let's use family members as an example, because I don't know what turns you off with the ladies and I don't want to be judgmental.
Does seeing, say, your parents, holding hands, bother you as much as it bothers you to see two men holding hands? If the answer is "no" then your issue with two men holding hands is that it's a sign of homosexuality, and NOT two people you're unattracted to being romantic.
Same with chaste peck kisses.
Nobody wants to be exposed to people they're completely unattracted to being intimate. That is NORMAL. Being turned off by seeing gay men doing something which would also repulse you if you caught (again, JUST as an example) your parents doing it is normal and totally not homophobic.
Being turned off by gay men doing something that you would be okay with ANY OTHER adult couple doing IS, because your issue is that they're gay. Of course it's not a reaction you're choosing to have, but that doesn't change the fact- or the reason- that you're having it.
I hope my post is coherent. It's a tricky subject and a tricky point to have to make, and I tend to be rambly at the best of times.
Oh, and kudos to being able to question your reasons for your reactions and wanting to understand yourself better.
:EDITED: I noticed a few other posts on making out. Again, same rules apply. I'd be pretty turned off by watching my parents, or my grandparents, or my brother and his lady, make out. It would also repulse me to see people of certain groups do so. In case you're wondering, the elderly and the obese. I have nothing against those people as individuals, but I don't want to see them make out any more than I want to see family members make out, because I'm NOT attracted to them. It's not ageist or fatist (is that the term?), it's simply not being attracted to them. So if a person is repulsed by watching their family members OR gay guys make out? Not homophobic.
Making out is seen as sexual and intimate and is a different thing to chaste kisses and holding hands. Some people are uncomfortable with anyone making out around them, because of the level of intimacy implied in such behaviour.
You do realise that you're coming off as more of a bigot than the supposedly homophobic people you're spouting about? They're made uncomfortable by gay acts of affection, but they are perfectly willing and happy to ignore that minor feeling of discomfort for the sake of the homosexual people involved. That seems reasonable to me.101flyboy said:
Whereas what you're saying is that these people ought to change what is essentially, to them, a gut reaction. Whether that reaction is caused by an innate psychological aversion or societal indoctrination, it is still going to be really fucking difficult to get rid of it completely. And you're saying they should do that anyway, giving absolutely no reason why? "It's unhealthy" does not qualify as a reason because there is no backup whatsoever to that claim.
You would do well to accept something closer to this philosophy:
Samantha Burt said:Of course. Harmless homophobia is, tautologically, harmless. If something hurts no-one, but helps a person find happiness/comfort, then there is nothing wrong with it. Someone finding me and my fiancée to be an unsettling concept has as much right to that feeling as we have to be in love. I'm not going to stop them if they don't stop me; live and let live, etc.Xan Krieger said:
Otherwise you're just causing a problem for other people. You're being intolerant, in other words. Tolerance does not mean being a blank slate with absolutely no preferences or aversions. In an ideal world, yes, we'd aim for something like this, but the fact of the matter is that human beings do not work like that. So what tolerance means, in the real world, is letting other people do what they want to do in spite of whatever preferences or aversions you might have.
Good point well made. I remember Nick Griffin complaining about how gays in public "look creepy", to which a gay in the audience shouted out "the feeling is mutual!"Able Seacat said:
People have natural, instinctive reactions to certain situations, and some of them are unpleasant or negative. As long as they don't make important decisions off of the back of such behaviour or treat their disgust as universal/valid, keeping it to themselves, I don't see a problem.
Oh God, why did you have to ruin your entire opinion with that phrase.Katatori-kun said:
OT: Okay OP, you're a little homophobic and it's not a natural thing. Don't worry though, it's not really a problem unless you act on it and make it difficult to be homosexual near you. You'll change your opinion soon enough.
See, I think that the whole thing of Homophobia verses Gay Hate-crime works a bit like this:
Homophobia is You having some sort of negative attitude against gays. As much as you might want to not dislike gays, you intrinsically do.
Gay Hate-Crime is doing something to gays 'cause they're gay. Murder, assault, theft, you know, crimes.
See, what you've got now is Homophobia. BUT, you're actively trying to suppress it, and it isn't moving to hate-crime. In other words, the only negative reactions you have are the intrinsic ones that you can't control. You can try and suppress them, maybe even succeed, but the fact of the matter is it's something that's happening even as you're actively not wanting it. I don't think there's a court in the world that would punish you for that much. (Or I would hope not, anyway.)
If you were going out punching gays in the face when they held hands, yeah, I'd start to have a problem, and the courts would too. But that's because punching people is more controllable, and it isn't a victimless crime like having homophobic thoughts but keeping them to yourself is.
In other words? Yep, you're homophobic, but it's beyond your control and you're not acting on the thoughts beyond trying to suppress them and avoid having them, and anyone who says you deserve punishment for that, well... I can't agree with them, at least. I'm not saying you should stop trying to suppress the feelings or anything, but don't beat yourself up if your attempts fail. You're fighting against your natural reactions, and they're hard as fuck to change sometimes.
Homophobia is You having some sort of negative attitude against gays. As much as you might want to not dislike gays, you intrinsically do.
Gay Hate-Crime is doing something to gays 'cause they're gay. Murder, assault, theft, you know, crimes.
See, what you've got now is Homophobia. BUT, you're actively trying to suppress it, and it isn't moving to hate-crime. In other words, the only negative reactions you have are the intrinsic ones that you can't control. You can try and suppress them, maybe even succeed, but the fact of the matter is it's something that's happening even as you're actively not wanting it. I don't think there's a court in the world that would punish you for that much. (Or I would hope not, anyway.)
If you were going out punching gays in the face when they held hands, yeah, I'd start to have a problem, and the courts would too. But that's because punching people is more controllable, and it isn't a victimless crime like having homophobic thoughts but keeping them to yourself is.
In other words? Yep, you're homophobic, but it's beyond your control and you're not acting on the thoughts beyond trying to suppress them and avoid having them, and anyone who says you deserve punishment for that, well... I can't agree with them, at least. I'm not saying you should stop trying to suppress the feelings or anything, but don't beat yourself up if your attempts fail. You're fighting against your natural reactions, and they're hard as fuck to change sometimes.
Yup, the facts don't lie. And the fact you and several other straight guys here have said they don't care about same-sex kissing should be reason enough to make it obvious that if you do, then you have an individual problem.SimpleThunda said:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Homophobic? Maybe You?re Gay
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/homophobic-maybe-youre-gay.html?_r=0
WHY are political and religious figures who campaign against gay rights so often implicated in sexual encounters with same-sex partners?
In recent years, Ted Haggard, an evangelical leader who preached that homosexuality was a sin, resigned after a scandal involving a former male prostitute; Larry Craig, a United States senator who opposed including sexual orientation in hate-crime legislation, was arrested on suspicion of lewd conduct in a men?s bathroom; and Glenn Murphy Jr., a leader of the Young Republican National Convention and an opponent of same-sex marriage, pleaded guilty to a lesser charge after being accused of sexually assaulting another man.
One theory is that homosexual urges, when repressed out of shame or fear, can be expressed as homophobia. Freud famously called this process a ?reaction formation? ? the angry battle against the outward symbol of feelings that are inwardly being stifled. Even Mr. Haggard seemed to endorse this idea when, apologizing after his scandal for his anti-gay rhetoric, he said, ?I think I was partially so vehement because of my own war.?
It?s a compelling theory ? and now there is scientific reason to believe it. In this month?s issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, we and our fellow researchers provide empirical evidence that homophobia can result, at least in part, from the suppression of same-sex desire.
Our paper describes six studies conducted in the United States and Germany involving 784 university students. Participants rated their sexual orientation on a 10-point scale, ranging from gay to straight. Then they took a computer-administered test designed to measure their implicit sexual orientation. In the test, the participants were shown images and words indicative of hetero- and homosexuality (pictures of same-sex and straight couples, words like ?homosexual? and ?gay?) and were asked to sort them into the appropriate category, gay or straight, as quickly as possible. The computer measured their reaction times.
The twist was that before each word and image appeared, the word ?me? or ?other? was flashed on the screen for 35 milliseconds ? long enough for participants to subliminally process the word but short enough that they could not consciously see it. The theory here, known as semantic association, is that when ?me? precedes words or images that reflect your sexual orientation (for example, heterosexual images for a straight person), you will sort these images into the correct category faster than when ?me? precedes words or images that are incongruent with your sexual orientation (for example, homosexual images for a straight person). This technique, adapted from similar tests used to assess attitudes like subconscious racial bias, reliably distinguishes between self-identified straight individuals and those who self-identify as lesbian, gay or bisexual.
Using this methodology we identified a subgroup of participants who, despite self-identifying as highly straight, indicated some level of same-sex attraction (that is, they associated ?me? with gay-related words and pictures faster than they associated ?me? with straight-related words and pictures). Over 20 percent of self-described highly straight individuals showed this discrepancy.
Notably, these ?discrepant? individuals were also significantly more likely than other participants to favor anti-gay policies; to be willing to assign significantly harsher punishments to perpetrators of petty crimes if they were presumed to be homosexual; and to express greater implicit hostility toward gay subjects (also measured with the help of subliminal priming). Thus our research suggests that some who oppose homosexuality do tacitly harbor same-sex attraction.
What leads to this repression? We found that participants who reported having supportive and accepting parents were more in touch with their implicit sexual orientation and less susceptible to homophobia. Individuals whose sexual identity was at odds with their implicit sexual attraction were much more frequently raised by parents perceived to be controlling, less accepting and more prejudiced against homosexuals.
It?s important to stress the obvious: Not all those who campaign against gay men and lesbians secretly feel same-sex attractions. But at least some who oppose homosexuality are likely to be individuals struggling against parts of themselves, having themselves been victims of oppression and lack of acceptance. The costs are great, not only for the targets of anti-gay efforts but also often for the perpetrators. We would do well to remember that all involved deserve our compassion.
I hate the homophobe=gay connection because it's sort of self-aggrandizing but I've seen it happen too many times and there are too many studies showing the exact same things to deny there is a connection. There is, at the very least, a clear cut connection between insecurity with one's identity and homophobia.
This is a good post. Except for one thing............I do think it's in your control. Not necessarily the fact people are indoctrinated into being homophobia, but it can be eliminated. That is something that can be controlled and repression in itself is controlling it and oftentimes leads to a deletion of homophobia because you just because used to thinking a certain way and your thought processes working a certain way. But as long as you admit that homophobia is wrong and you don't harm non-heterosexual individuals and impose your homophobia onto them, then no-one can do anything about it and no-one would need to, because it's not an issue in the first place.TAGM said: