What is being homophobic?

Aaron Sylvester

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Okay firstly let me clear up where I'm coming from, I'm your typical heterosexual male aged in his 20's. And I have a dilemma - you see, I absolutely love the sight of two women kissing or getting it on. It's rather arousing, if not simply plain damn sexy as hell.
But the sight of two GUYS kissing makes my brain have a fucking seizure. I can't help it.

The definition of homophobia is "holding prejudice against homosexuals", but I hold no prejudice against a guy I meet if he tells me he's gay. Whatever, doesn't bother me, I'd still treat him the same as I treat anyone else. BUT if I saw the same guy engaging in something romantic...even something as simple as holding hands in a "we are obviously lovers" fashion with another guy...I feel the need to look away, something simply clicks in my mind and yells "oh god why did I have to see that??". An image of two guys kissing, even on the internet, makes me immediately get rid of that image as fast as my fingers allow me to and spend the next few minutes recovering from the shock of seeing such a thing, my mind desperately trying to trash that image into a virtual bin.

But I still find the sight of lesbians damn, damn sexy.

You see, what I'm asking here is why the word "homophobic" has one single definition, when I GUARANTEE you that a sizable chunk of the world's population could be classified as "homophobic" when it comes to homosexuals of their own gender, and not bothered at all by the idea of the OPPOSITE sex engaging in homosexual acts.

Case in point, I bet a lot of women find the idea of two guys getting it on quite sexy/arousing. It has to be true judging by all the stuff I find on DeviantArt (yes, that site, deal with it :p) drawn-up by female artists, and all the comments by female fans. And I've known plenty of females who could literally puke at the very thought of two girls kissing yelling "oh god disgusting!!", something that would be a welcome sight by a lot of guys. They could be called homophobic because they dislike the idea of lesbians...okay, dislike is a strong word, but they will still make them uneasy or uncomfortable. But it's only natural, is it not??

Thoughts?

And of course, what would be an Escapist discussion be without a slightly relevant video :p
 

JoJo

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I'd say that homophobia means the prejudice rather than unwanted fear or disgust, at-least the way most people use it.

I would hesitate against saying that a feeling of disgust of seeing two members of the same sex as ourselves making out is "natural" though, I honestly I don't feel disgusted at-all by seeing two men kiss, it certainly isn't a universal feeling.
 

janjotat

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I am with you on this except there is one difference, I don't find two guys disgusting I simply don't care. It's just complete and utter indifference even if its in public.
 

aba1

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The way I look at things in general is broken down like this

Is it hurting anybody?

If so do something about it, if not proceed to stop caring and wild third option if it interests you pay it attention.
 

ShinyCharizard

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I'd say you can find two guys kissing to be uncomfortable without being homophobic. I don't hate homosexual people and one of my good friends is gay but I still find men kissing to be uncomfortable. I just can't really help that.
 

Able Seacat

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There are many things straight couples engage in that would make me uncomfortable but that doesn't mean I'm prejudiced against straight people. We all have different preferences, as long as we're not stopping anyone doing anything that isn't harmful then whoo hoo.
 

101flyboy

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Homophobia=Irrational fear of, aversion towards, discrimination/hatred of homosexuality/homosexuals.

Yes, Aaron, you have homophobic tendencies. You can be homophobic and not anti-gay. It is homophobia to be disgusted by same-sex kissing between two guys, hand holding. It is prejudice. Is it bigotry? No. But it's an irrational discomfort. There is nothing actually inherently disgusting about it.
 

101flyboy

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Two kinds of disgust: disgust at primary objects and projective disgust
http://firstthings.com/blogs/evangel/2010/06/disgust-at-primary-objects-and-projective-disgust/

Disgust seems like a deep-seated bodily response to certain smells, sights, and feels, which has little to do with what we learn or how we interpret the world.

In the past twenty years, however, important experimental work by psychologist Paul Rozin and his colleagues has shown conclusively that disgust has a marked cognitive element. What people find disgusting depends crucially on the idea they have of the object. Thus disgust is not simply sensory distaste. Subjects who sniff the same odor from two vials, being told that one contains feces and the other contains cheese, are usually disgusted by the first but not by the second. Nor is disgust identical with the sense of danger. People will eat formerly poisonous mushrooms if they are convinced that the poison has been removed, but they won?t swallow a cockroach even if they are sure it has been sterilized; subjects even refuse to swallow a cockroach sealed in a plastic capsule that will emerge, undigested, in the subject?s feces.

Disgust, Rozin finds, concerns the borders of the body. Its central idea is that of contamination: the disgusted person feels defiled by the object, thinking that it has somehow entered the self. Further experiments show that behind this idea of personal contamination lies the idea that ?you are what you eat?: if you take in something base or vile, you become like that yourself.

So what are people unwilling to be or become? The so-called primary objects of disgust are reminders of human animality and mortality: feces, other bodily fluids, corpses, and animals or insects who have related properties (slimy, smelly, oozy) . . . .

When people experience disgust, then, they are expressing an aversion to prominent aspects of what every human being is. They feel contaminated by what reminds them of these aspects, which people often prefer to conceal. Such aversions almost certainly have an evolutionary basis, but they still have to be confirmed by learning: children do not exhibit disgust until the ages of two or three years old, during the time of toilet training. This means that society has room to interpret and shape the emotion, directing it to some objects rather than others, as happens with anger and compassion.

In virtually all societies, disgust is standardly felt toward a group of primary objects: feces, blood, semen, urine, nasal discharges, menstrual discharges, corpses, decaying meat, and animal/insects that are oozy, slimy, or smelly . . . Disgust at primary objects is usually a useful heuristic, steering us away from the dangerous when there is no time for detailed inquiry.

Disgust is then extended from object to object in ways that could hardly bear rational scrutiny. This sort of extended disgust is what I call projective disgust . . . .

Projective disgust is shaped by social norms, as societies teach their members to identify alleged contaminants in their midst. All societies, it appears, identify as least some humans as disgusting. Very likely this is a stratagem adopted to cordon off the dominant group more securely from its own feared animality: if those quasi humans stand between me and the world of disgusting animality, then I am that much further from being mortal/decaying/smelly/oozy myself. Projective disgust rarely has any reliable connection with genuine danger. It feeds on fantasy, and engineers subordination. Although it does serve a deep-seated human need ? the need to represent oneself as pure and others as dirty ? this is a need whose relation to social fairness looks (and is) highly questionable.

Projective disgust (involving projection of disgust properties onto a group or individual) takes many forms, but it always involves linking the allegedly disgusting group or person somehow with the primary objects of disgust. Sometimes this is done by stressing the close practical connection of the group with the primary objects: untouchables in the Indian caste system were those who cleaned latrines and disposed of corpses; women seem to many men to be particularly closely linked with blood and other bodily fluids through their receptive sexuality, their role in birth, and menstruation, a common source of norms of ?untouchability.?

Often, however, the extension works in more fantasy-laden ways, by imputing to people or groups properties similar to those that are found disgusting in the primary objects: bad smell, ooziness, rottenness, germiness, decay. Typically, these projections have no basis in reality. Jews are not really slimy, or similar to maggots, although German anti-Semities, and Hitler himself, said that they were. African-Americans do not smell worse than other human beings, although racists said that they did. And often, when there is an element of what I?ve called practical connection, projection imputes dirtiness or contamination where where is no reason to do so. . . Notice, then, that projective disgust involves a double fantasy: a fantasy of the dirtiness of the other and a fantasy of one?s own purity. Both sides of the projection involve false belief, and both conduce to a politics of hierarchy.

Societies have many ways of stigmatizing vulnerable minorities. Disgust is not the only mechanism of stigmatization. It is, however, a powerful and central one, and when it is removed (when, for example, aversion to physical contact with a racial minority is no longer present), other modes of hierarchy tend to depart along with it.

It is not surprising that sexuality is an area of life in which disgust often plays a role. Sex involves the exchange of bodily fluids, and it marks us as bodily beings rather than angelic transcendent beings. So sex is a site of anxiety for anyone who is ambivalent about having an animal and mortal nature, and that includes many if not most people. Primary-object disgust therefore plays a significant role in sexual relations, as the bodily substances people encounter in sex (semen, sweat, feces, menstrual blood) are very often found disgusting and seen as contaminants. Therefore, it is not surprising that projective disgust also plays a prominent role in the sexual domain. In almost all societies, people identify a group of sexual actors as disgusting or pathological, contrasting them with ?normal? or ?pure? sexual actors (prominently including the people themselves and their own group). This stigmatization takes many different forms. Misogyny is an aspect of it in most cultures, as males distance themselves from the discomfort they feel by associating bodily fluids with the woman who receives them, and not, at the same time, with their own bodies . . . .

There is no doubt that the body of the gay man has been a central locus of disgust-anxiety ? above all, for other men. Female homosexuals may be objects of fear, or moral indignation, or generalized anxiety; but they have less often been objects of disgust. Similarly, heterosexual females may have felt negative emotions toward the male homosexual ? fear, moral indignation, anxiety ? but again, they have more rarely felt emotions of disgust . . .

What inspires disgust is typically the male thought of the male homosexual, imagined as anally penetrable. The idea of semen and feces mixing together inside the body of a male is one of the most disgusting ideas imaginable ? to males, for whom the idea of nonpenetrability is a sacred boundary against stickiness, ooze, and death. (The idea of contamination-by-penetration is probably one central idea, but the more general idea is that of the male body as defiled by the contamination of bodily fluids: and proximity to a contaminated body is itself contaminating.) The presence of a homosexual male in the neighborhood inspires the thought that one might lose one?s own clean safeness, one might become the receptacle for those animal products. Thus disgust is ultimately disgust at one?s own imagined penetrability and ooziness, and this is why the male homosexual is both regarded with disgust and viewed with fear as a predator who might make everyone else disgusting. The very look of such a male is itself contaminating ? as we see in the extraordinary debates about showers in the military. The gaze of a homosexual male is seen as contaminating because it says, ?You can be penetrated.? And this means that you can be made of feces and semen and blood, not clean plastic flesh. Thus it is not surprising that (to males) the thought of homosexual sex is even more disgusting than the thought of reproductive sex, despite the strong connection of the latter with mortality and the cycle of the generations. For in heterosexual sex the male imagines that not he but a lesser being (the woman, seen as animal) receives the pollution of bodily fluids; in imagining homosexual sex he is forced to imagine that he himself might be so polluted. This inspires a stronger need for boundary drawing . . . .

I contend that projective disgust plays no proper role in arguing for legal regulation, because of the emotion?s normative irrationality and its connection to stigma and hierarchy.

We cannot conclude that a policy is wrong simply because it is backed by a rhetoric of disgust: for there may be other better reasons in its favor. Disgust, however, often prevents us from looking for those good reasons, creating the misleading impression that the policy has already been well defended. Turning to it to legitimize policies that can be defended in other ways is therefore dangerous, because this encourages us to stop short in our search for rationally defensible categories. And the emotion itself encourages us to accept hierarchies and boundaries that are not defensible within a political tradition based on equal respect.

Even those who believe that disgust still provides a sufficient reason for rendering certain practices illegal, however, should agree with a weaker thesis: namely, that disgust provides no good reason for limiting liberties or compromising equalities that are constitutionally protected (pp. 13-21).
 

generals3

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101flyboy said:
Homophobia=Irrational fear of, aversion towards, discrimination/hatred of homosexuality/homosexuals.

Yes, Aaron, you have homophobic tendencies. You can be homophobic and not anti-gay. It is homophobia to be disgusted by same-sex kissing between two guys, hand holding. It is prejudice. Is it bigotry? No. But it's an irrational discomfort. There is nothing actually inherently disgusting about it.
Let me ask you, how often are certain things inherently disgusting? THink of food, everyone has different tastes and find certain things disgusting. I don't think it is any different in this case. Considering there are also "tastes" when it comes to sexual interactions (some people like anal sex some find it disgusting, some people like playing with excrements others don't, etc.)
 

101flyboy

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Projective disgust is what this is called. It's partially about one's own purity, and it's partially about the dirtiness of the "other". The "other" in the case of many heterosexuals is homosexuality. For many homosexuals it's heterosexuality. And what it means is basically, you're seeing things from the context of a gay person, if you're straight, and see two men kissing. And for straight guys especially, the first thing that triggers them is, when thinking things in the context of a gay person, when in a gay environment, is anal sex. Male anal sex. Secondly, it's male oral sex. It's about the sharing of saliva when two people kiss. It's about a guy going out of his traditional gender role and doing what a woman is *supposed* to do. It's about you being in a situation that you as an individual are insecure with. That you find contaminates yourself.

These attitudes are 100% shaped by social norms. In many countries, men kiss as a greeting. In my life, I live with a lot of social liberal type straights and gays alike, alternative types. I kiss my straight friends, cuddle with them even. It's not a big deal at all, we're all very affectionate. It depends on how you have been raised. It depends on if you've been indoctrinated by a homophobic society to hold a homophobic mentality.

Disgust is a moral based trait that becomes physical. The kissing itself isn't what disgusts you. It's the fact a MAN is doing what he isn't "supposed" to do that you find disgusting for the reasons said above. Straight men don't feel this way about lesbians because they don't have such a mentality that women aren't "supposed" to be with another woman. Same way with straight girls who love gay sex but hate basic same-sex affection between two women. Disgust is different than discomfort. Being uncomfortable with something means, OK, well, this is something I don't expect or is new to me, but it shows you this person is open to calming down, and realizing, OK, well, that's not a big deal.

Disgust is a major line in the sand basically saying THIS IS WRONG. So whether people realize it or not, when you call basic same-sex affection disgusting, you're calling it wrong.
 

Queen Michael

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101flyboy said:
Projective disgust is what this is called. It's partially about one's own purity, and it's partially about the dirtiness of the "other". The "other" in the case of many heterosexuals is homosexuality. For many homosexuals it's heterosexuality. And what it means is basically, you're seeing things from the context of a gay person, if you're straight, and see two men kissing. And for straight guys especially, the first thing that triggers them is, when thinking things in the context of a gay person, when in a gay environment, is anal sex. Male anal sex. Secondly, it's male oral sex. It's about the sharing of saliva when two people kiss. It's about a guy going out of his traditional gender role and doing what a woman is *supposed* to do. It's about you being in a situation that you as an individual are insecure with. That you find contaminates yourself.

These attitudes are 100% shaped by social norms. In many countries, men kiss as a greeting. In my life, I live with a lot of social liberal type straights and gays alike, alternative types. I kiss my straight friends, cuddle with them even. It's not a big deal at all, we're all very affectionate. It depends on how you have been raised. It depends on if you've been indoctrinated by a homophobic society to hold a homophobic mentality.

Disgust is a moral based trait that becomes physical. The kissing itself isn't what disgusts you. It's the fact a MAN is doing what he isn't "supposed" to do that you find disgusting for the reasons said above. Straight men don't feel this way about lesbians because they don't have such a mentality that women aren't "supposed" to be with another woman. Same way with straight girls who love gay sex but hate basic same-sex affection between two women. Disgust is different than discomfort. Being uncomfortable with something means, OK, well, this is something I don't expect or is new to me, but it shows you this person is open to calming down, and realizing, OK, well, that's not a big deal.

Disgust is a major line in the sand basically saying THIS IS WRONG. So whether people realize it or not, when you call basic same-sex affection disgusting, you're calling it wrong.
Honest question: How do you regard people who find spinach or some other food disgusting?
 

101flyboy

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Most male homophobes are misogynists and misogyny is a major reason why straight guys find same-sex kissing gross if it's between two men. But actually, a lot of straight guys are NOT like this and a few have said as much here. They just don't care. They are the straight men secure in their sexuality and masculinity. They're not thinking about all the things gay men do when they see them kiss or feel some sort of contamination from association.

That's why this mentality is ridiculous, because many straight people are actually evolved, so there is no reason for everyone not to be the same way.
 

101flyboy

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generals3 said:
101flyboy said:
Homophobia=Irrational fear of, aversion towards, discrimination/hatred of homosexuality/homosexuals.

Yes, Aaron, you have homophobic tendencies. You can be homophobic and not anti-gay. It is homophobia to be disgusted by same-sex kissing between two guys, hand holding. It is prejudice. Is it bigotry? No. But it's an irrational discomfort. There is nothing actually inherently disgusting about it.
Let me ask you, how often are certain things inherently disgusting? THink of food, everyone has different tastes and find certain things disgusting. I don't think it is any different in this case. Considering there are also "tastes" when it comes to sexual interactions (some people like anal sex some find it disgusting, some people like playing with excrements others don't, etc.)
Actually, it is very different, because food has texture, smell, appearance, ingredients, and actual reasons that a person can hold to, to find certain foods disgusting to them. However, a kiss is a kiss. Hand holding is hand holding. Anal sex has nothing to do with either. That's actually a lot of where projective disgust exists. People immediately think anal sex when two men kiss. They take the kiss as sexual, and then envision that situation. And they can't handle it. It's not the kissing, it's that individuals' own insecurities, and irrational aversion.
 

generals3

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101flyboy said:
Projective disgust is what this is called. It's partially about one's own purity, and it's partially about the dirtiness of the "other". The "other" in the case of many heterosexuals is homosexuality. For many homosexuals it's heterosexuality. And what it means is basically, you're seeing things from the context of a gay person, if you're straight, and see two men kissing. And for straight guys especially, the first thing that triggers them is, when thinking things in the context of a gay person, when in a gay environment, is anal sex. Male anal sex. Secondly, it's male oral sex. It's about the sharing of saliva when two people kiss. It's about a guy going out of his traditional gender role and doing what a woman is *supposed* to do. It's about you being in a situation that you as an individual are insecure with. That you find contaminates yourself.

These attitudes are 100% shaped by social norms. In many countries, men kiss as a greeting. In my life, I live with a lot of social liberal type straights and gays alike, alternative types. I kiss my straight friends, cuddle with them even. It's not a big deal at all, we're all very affectionate. It depends on how you have been raised. It depends on if you've been indoctrinated by a homophobic society to hold a homophobic mentality.

Disgust is a moral based trait that becomes physical. The kissing itself isn't what disgusts you. It's the fact a MAN is doing what he isn't "supposed" to do that you find disgusting for the reasons said above. Straight men don't feel this way about lesbians because they don't have such a mentality that women aren't "supposed" to be with another woman. Same way with straight girls who love gay sex but hate basic same-sex affection between two women. Disgust is different than discomfort. Being uncomfortable with something means, OK, well, this is something I don't expect or is new to me, but it shows you this person is open to calming down, and realizing, OK, well, that's not a big deal.

Disgust is a major line in the sand basically saying THIS IS WRONG. So whether people realize it or not, when you call basic same-sex affection disgusting, you're calling it wrong.
Ok: define "kissing to greet". I do kiss guys on the cheek to greet as well. Doesn't change the fact that when to guys french kiss i think "Yuk!". You know, just like when i see someone eat something i find disgusting. Or to be totally honest, the same would happen if i saw a really ugly guy and chick french. It's not like it's something aimed at gays. There are just things i find unpleasant to watch. And i don't think anyone can pretend they don't find things really unpleasant to watch for the sake of "tolerance" towards different things/people.

I don't really care about gay people, i say: live and let live. But i'll be damned if I need to somehow change my "tastes" to be considered tolerant or whatever.
 

101flyboy

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Queen Michael said:
Honest question: How do you regard people who find spinach or some other food disgusting?
Depends on if they've had it. The reasons they don't like it. Human beings aren't food. So to compare the two is ridiculous.
 

101flyboy

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generals3 said:
101flyboy said:
Projective disgust is what this is called. It's partially about one's own purity, and it's partially about the dirtiness of the "other". The "other" in the case of many heterosexuals is homosexuality. For many homosexuals it's heterosexuality. And what it means is basically, you're seeing things from the context of a gay person, if you're straight, and see two men kissing. And for straight guys especially, the first thing that triggers them is, when thinking things in the context of a gay person, when in a gay environment, is anal sex. Male anal sex. Secondly, it's male oral sex. It's about the sharing of saliva when two people kiss. It's about a guy going out of his traditional gender role and doing what a woman is *supposed* to do. It's about you being in a situation that you as an individual are insecure with. That you find contaminates yourself.

These attitudes are 100% shaped by social norms. In many countries, men kiss as a greeting. In my life, I live with a lot of social liberal type straights and gays alike, alternative types. I kiss my straight friends, cuddle with them even. It's not a big deal at all, we're all very affectionate. It depends on how you have been raised. It depends on if you've been indoctrinated by a homophobic society to hold a homophobic mentality.

Disgust is a moral based trait that becomes physical. The kissing itself isn't what disgusts you. It's the fact a MAN is doing what he isn't "supposed" to do that you find disgusting for the reasons said above. Straight men don't feel this way about lesbians because they don't have such a mentality that women aren't "supposed" to be with another woman. Same way with straight girls who love gay sex but hate basic same-sex affection between two women. Disgust is different than discomfort. Being uncomfortable with something means, OK, well, this is something I don't expect or is new to me, but it shows you this person is open to calming down, and realizing, OK, well, that's not a big deal.

Disgust is a major line in the sand basically saying THIS IS WRONG. So whether people realize it or not, when you call basic same-sex affection disgusting, you're calling it wrong.
Ok: define "kissing to greet". I do kiss guys on the cheek to greet as well. Doesn't change the fact that when to guys french kiss i think "Yuk!". You know, just like when i see someone eat something i find disgusting. Or to be totally honest, the same would happen if i saw a really ugly guy and chick french. It's not like it's something aimed at gays. There are just things i find unpleasant to watch.
That's projective disgust. It's irrational. It's homophobia. And it is aimed at gays if you don't feel yuk in other circumstances.

I'll kiss my friends on the cheek or lips. Depends. If the situation is more intimate we'll kiss on the lips, quick peck. I like to hug, too. I like showing affection. It doesn't matter if it's a guy or girl, because they're both HUMAN.

Seeing unattractive people kissing is more or less the same thing. It's ultimately just a kiss and it's projective disgust. It's an internalized feeling that you can't handle and project said feeling onto the unattractive person kissing.

Human beings aren't food. So there's no point in bringing that up as a defense of projective disgust and casual homophobia.
 

101flyboy

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generals3 said:
I don't really care about gay people, i say: live and let live. But i'll be damned if I need to somehow change my "tastes" to be considered tolerant or whatever.
Translation: I don't really accept homosexuality, but I can handle it and tolerate it, as long as it's not around me.

The people who I've found find homosexuality off-putting and are truly straight allies, or accepting, realize they have a problem and try to fix it or naturally do so because they are immersed in a culture where they see it regularly. Or they just learn to internalize their discomfort and get over it. They don't make excuses for something that's not excusable.
 

generals3

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101flyboy said:
Translation: I don't really accept homosexuality, but I can handle it and tolerate it, as long as it's not around me.

The people who I've found find homosexuality off-putting and are truly straight allies, or accepting, realize they have a problem and try to fix it or naturally do so because they are immersed in a culture where they see it regularly. Or they just learn to internalize their discomfort and get over it. They don't make excuses for something that's not excusable.
How is that not accepting it? I accept gays can be gay as much as they want. I don't accept it as something visually pleasing, that's for sure. But I am convinced that accepting the concept as a whole is not equal to accepting certain visual aspects of it.

And fixing it? I don't really see how you can change your tastes consciously.