I'm wondering out loud here, but is it still homophobia if you're turned off by the sight of homosexuality? It's not like you get to choose what arouses you and what doesn't.
What is being homophobic?
- Thread starter Aaron Sylvester
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Ehm, no, that's not homophobia, neither is telling a same-sex couple to "get a room".Johnny Novgorod said:
What I am more interested in is this odd phenomenon of manly men going all ballistic about gays yet still complaining their wife won't let them put it in the butt.
I think it's been touched on multiple times, it's putting yourself in someone else's shoes. "That is something I would not want to do and thus I would prefer not to see it."Vegosiux said:
It's also probably because kissing is SUPPOSED to be beautiful and if you do not find the exact situation beautiful the mind reads it as "this does not compute". Like biting an apple that tastes like avocado when you don't like avocado - "I was expecting apple".
How about watching someone kiss an ugly girl, or a dog? I imagine the response is the same. "Do not want. Look away. Bleh."
There is a difference between "this does not compute" and "this is disgusting". Also kissing/hugging isn't really homosexuality. Homosexuality is sex. Kissing is a kiss. Hugging is hugging. Hand holding is hand holding. Same-sex hand holding, opposite sex kissing, it's the same thing with different gender combinations. We need to separate affection from sex. I'm not turned on or off by a man and woman kissing. It's a non-starter. Thinking it's disgusting is taking it to a different level.
Some funny comments in this thread. "You're not homophobic, because I feel just like you and I'm certainly not homophobic".
Sorry, it is an homophobic reaction. This doesn't mean you're a bad person, it's just that in some subconscious level you either have a problem with actual "gayness" (instead of the theoretic gayness when you know someone is gay) or you're insecure about your own identity. As people have already said in this thread, this is something that is programmed in us by our culture, and if you become aware of it you can work to improve.
As a teen I also thought that male-male displays of affection were kinda iffy, even though I didn't have a problem with other couples (man-woman or woman-woman). So I realized that yes, this was a kind of prejudice, and I stopped feeling like this.
One problem with discussing this stuff is that if you tell someone he/she has a prejudice, many people will jump to the conclusion that you're saying he/she is a bad person. It's not like that, everyone has prejudices and we need to be aware of them to be able to improve. In the great, great majority of cases these prejudices are the result of cultural programming that is outside our control, and not due to malice or being a bad person.
Sorry, it is an homophobic reaction. This doesn't mean you're a bad person, it's just that in some subconscious level you either have a problem with actual "gayness" (instead of the theoretic gayness when you know someone is gay) or you're insecure about your own identity. As people have already said in this thread, this is something that is programmed in us by our culture, and if you become aware of it you can work to improve.
As a teen I also thought that male-male displays of affection were kinda iffy, even though I didn't have a problem with other couples (man-woman or woman-woman). So I realized that yes, this was a kind of prejudice, and I stopped feeling like this.
One problem with discussing this stuff is that if you tell someone he/she has a prejudice, many people will jump to the conclusion that you're saying he/she is a bad person. It's not like that, everyone has prejudices and we need to be aware of them to be able to improve. In the great, great majority of cases these prejudices are the result of cultural programming that is outside our control, and not due to malice or being a bad person.
Great post. This is a lot of it.itsthesheppy said:
I do think that the "I'm disgusted by people of my gender" mentality has to also come into question. You can find men unappealing, sure..........but you're a man yourself. If you find yourself attractive you're a man who finds a man attractive. Doesn't mean you'll find other men attractive. But do you look in the mirror and find yourself repulsive and dirty? That's a question people need to ask themselves too. Men aren't inherently repulsive, women aren't repulsive.
I get it, I was just saying that they're wrong. Nothing more, nothing less.SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Contracts that are recognized by some parties and not by other parties. Contracts that have value in one state and not in another state. Or contracts that have value in one district, yet not the other.
OK, cool.
I admit I'm pretty abrasive. I'm straight forward. I'm also pretty tired so I'm not thinking totally straight. I apologize. I can be less gawkish.
When both generate the same reaction/feeling it doesn't matter.101flyboy said:
Homosexuality is only realised at point of fornication? Sorry, that's absurd.
I am more than happy having different levels of affection being shown towards others. Are you saying that a boob grab isn't sexual because no sex is involved? Or maybe grabbing a man's crotch as a form of greeting? Is the line only drawn at penetration?
I do not like watching a man kiss an ugly girl the same as I do not like watching a man kiss a man. I find it unattractive because I am not attracted to ugly women or men. This is not homophobic, this is personal tastes. Just because a homosexual person doesn't find heterosexual couples kissing unattractive does not make my stance homophobic. I am certain the reason it is not disgusting to most homosexuals is either because it is simply a social norm or because it is kind of the way how people are made... unless homosexuals are somehow able to spawn children from their pairing since last I looked.
A good friend of mine said this, after we found out asnother good friend came out: "I love the guy but he better not put it up my ass."
This, in my opinion, is a perfectly valid response to a homosexual of the same gender as yourself. Ok, obviously it's not exactly... Elegant but the point I took from it is you don't have to enjoy watching two dudes make out to support gay rights. That kind of suggests only gay people should be for gay rights, right?
I mean, I enjoy watching Fight Club, Tarantino flicks, playing nasty video games, etc but I'm not a supporter of violence.
Homophobia, in my opinion, isn't about not wanting to watch, participate, etc it's about not wanting to let others do it. Telling them they can't do that shit. Maybe there's gay people out there thinking "man, being straight is fucking gross." That doesn't matter. It's ok to hate seeing a couple of gay guys kissing. It's not ok to think they can't. If you think they're not allowed to do that, that's when you need to look at the way you see things.
Don't pay any attention to the people here saying it's not cool.
Conclusion
It doesn't matter if the sight offends you, disgusts you, etc. It only matters that you leave people to it. That you support their rights like you support other rights.
This, in my opinion, is a perfectly valid response to a homosexual of the same gender as yourself. Ok, obviously it's not exactly... Elegant but the point I took from it is you don't have to enjoy watching two dudes make out to support gay rights. That kind of suggests only gay people should be for gay rights, right?
I mean, I enjoy watching Fight Club, Tarantino flicks, playing nasty video games, etc but I'm not a supporter of violence.
Homophobia, in my opinion, isn't about not wanting to watch, participate, etc it's about not wanting to let others do it. Telling them they can't do that shit. Maybe there's gay people out there thinking "man, being straight is fucking gross." That doesn't matter. It's ok to hate seeing a couple of gay guys kissing. It's not ok to think they can't. If you think they're not allowed to do that, that's when you need to look at the way you see things.
Don't pay any attention to the people here saying it's not cool.
Don't let people like this guy (sorry, Rebellion dude, just using you as an example) tell you you're sick and wrong. I mean, going by their logic, he's sick for not accepting you. That idealism is a very vicious circle. "You're sick because you don't like this." "Well, you're sick because you don't like that I don't like this." Well, ffffffuck that. What are you supposed to do? You, I and many others in this world have grown up with and taught by people who truly are homophobic, racist, sexist, etc and I think we do pretty well considering. So... Yeah, that was a rant and a half, right?Tragedy said:
Conclusion
It doesn't matter if the sight offends you, disgusts you, etc. It only matters that you leave people to it. That you support their rights like you support other rights.
It matters. One reaction is of indifference. The other is a negative response. People should strive for indifference, because if you find nothing wrong with homosexuality at all, then you shouldn't have a problem with same-sex couples showing low/moderate levels of affection, the same way opposite-sex couples do. If you do have a problem with that then you subconsciously have internalized issues that you're projecting on an innocent action.Abomination said:
Homosexuality is an extension of the word homosexual, which is characterized as a sexual desire for the same-sex. Homosexuality is the actions and state of being of that desire. That's why people don't identify as homosexuals, we identify as gay, because homosexual doesn't fully encapsulate a persons' sexual orientation.
What you're saying seems to be that the mere inference of homosexuality between two people of the same-sex causes people problems. And that is not healthy nor rational, because it's baseless and it's negative.
All of those actions are sexual. But we're not discussing sexualized actions. I'd be caught off guard having someone grab my crotch when they greet me. Or seeing a coworker touch a woman's boobs when they meet. But we're talking about low to moderate levels of affection. So why do you keep jumping to sex and these aggressive acts? It's like that's where you put same-sex affection, you consider it in the same realm as touching someone's boobs. And that speaks to the internalized issues you have towards homosexuality.
If I'm wrong, let me know.
You keep repeating this and I continue shooting it down easily. You don't like to see an unattractive girl kissing a man because she is unattractive. Which is a quantifiable reason to not want to see someone kissing. That is taste. Not wanting to see a man kiss has nothing to do with your taste. It's because you're straight.
It actually does, which is what most people are saying. It is homophobia. And it doesn't mean you're are definitively a homophobe. But your stance is inconsistent. And it's inconsistent due to homophobia and the fact you can't seem to help but connect same-sex kissing to sexual activity.
Yeah, so basically, homosexuality isn't natural. That's what you're implying, right? Seems like it. Maybe you meant it that way, maybe not, but when we get down to it, that's more or less what a majority of people are subconsciously thinking when they protest same-sex kissing. And it is a homophobic mentality.
From your posts, it seems like you think the OP and people like him should feel bad for the feelings they have towards this. Really, I think it's perfectly fine. You can't change who you are and how you react to it. If he's not taking time out of his day to disrupt homosexual love, he's a perfectly healthy individual.101flyboy said:
It doesn't work that way. The difference is you (people with homophobic tendencies, not you specifically) dislike and are disgusted by something which is ultimately positive, namely love between people, and something they CAN'T change. While you preach tolerance for the intolerant which is completely absurd and wrong.ninjaRiv said:
And as we mentioned countless times it is enough to hide your true homophobic, racist or sexist thoughts for other people. That is not what is ultimately being discussed here, the OP specifically asked if his situation makes him a homophobe and it DOES. It is up to him or you to do whatever you want with that information - you can still live in the dark ages with all the scary and gross gays around or you can truly be an enlightened person who holds no irrational aversions and in the end being a more secure and confident individual.
That is all we have been trying to say.
But he's not being intolerant. He's simply reacting.Tragedy said:
But maybe I'm wrong. I'm absolutely cool with watching people do that with whatever gender! It's all good! It's just how I think things are. You can be tolerant and accepting but something you just can't change so much.
It isn't cool. That's just how it is. It doesn't mean you're a bad person for thinking this way, it doesn't mean you're anti-gay, but is it *cool* to believe more or less the love two people have for one another of the same-gender is disgusting? No. It is not cool. If you don't impose said view on gay couples, that's good. You don't deserve a medal for that. We should all strive to be the best we can be and that means striving to eliminate irrational biases we have. Ultimately you won't be as close to these gay friends you have as you could be because you have a wall up and that wall isn't necessary.ninjaRiv said:
Well, I wouldn't call you "homophobic" OP. I can see where you're coming from and though I wouldn't say that seeing sexual acts between two men disgusts me, it is not something I find appealing or even something that I prefer to see either. That's simply because, like you, I'm heterosexual and my preferences lie elsewhere.
It's also why lesbians intermingled as such are appealing to me: they're still women engaging in sexual activities, loose of the fact that they're lesbian they still appeal to me because they're women.
For me, "homophobic" means that you have certain prejudices or fears regarding homosexual relationships, it has nothing to do with actually being interested in the sexual aspect of those relationships or not yourself. For example, I would classify someone claiming that homosexuals are "a danger to society" or "a perversion of the normal man-women relationship" as homophobic.
It's also why lesbians intermingled as such are appealing to me: they're still women engaging in sexual activities, loose of the fact that they're lesbian they still appeal to me because they're women.
For me, "homophobic" means that you have certain prejudices or fears regarding homosexual relationships, it has nothing to do with actually being interested in the sexual aspect of those relationships or not yourself. For example, I would classify someone claiming that homosexuals are "a danger to society" or "a perversion of the normal man-women relationship" as homophobic.
The thing is, that several people in this very thread have said they have changed. I personally have changed. I was personally uncomfortable with same-sex affection when I was younger and I grew out of it. I personally know people who were EXTREMELY uncomfortable with it who grew out of that discomfort in college. That's a cop out. We can understand, work on and fix our biases, if we're willing to address them and work on them, repress them. The issue is that some here are more or less saying they don't care about working on them, or they don't want to work on them, because they don't find their negative biases bad. Although they are. Just because they aren't imposed on a gay couple doesn't mean it's not negative to have negative bias towards same-sex couples for being same-sex couples. That's not perfectly healthy. Perfectly healthy would be not having such biases in the first place. Non-perfection would be having low-level bias or bias that you're controlling and repressing and growing.Shadowstar38 said:
Simply having a bias and then throwing your hands up and saying "oh well" is not perfectly healthy. Does it make that person a bad person? Not at all. It means they have a negative thought process they should seek to eliminate or soften. So that they *can* be completely comfortable around their gay friends.
You made good points, but Aaron wasn't discussing sex. He was talking about mere inferences that two men like each other. And basic affection between two guys. If he were talking about sexual activity, that would be a different ballgame. If he said "I don't like seeing two men stick their tongues down each other's throat", that's one thing. Effectively saying male-male homosexuality is completely disgusting to the point you want to have a seizure is.........homophobia. You can have homophobia yet not be homophobic or anti-gay.Fdzzaigl said:
I don't really mind if they have the bias as long as they're not being dicks about it. It's only natural to feel uncomfortable when you see homosexuals displaying affection. It looks unnatural. Being at a "tolerance" level is the most acceptable thing I could ask for.101flyboy said: