what is happing with britain

[Harrowdown]

Ok, quick unbiased explanation:

This bloke called Mark Duggan, known to have connections to gang activity, was killed by police. The official story is that he fired upon officers and was killed in the ensuing firefight. However, there was enough doubt about said story, not to mention a witness account that Duggan was pinned to the ground at the time, that a peaceful protest was organised in Tottenham, London by friends, relatives and others to demand answers. At some point, a group of younger armed protesters turned up, the police refused to strike up a diologue with protesters, and tensions slowly began to rise. The inevitable spark came when a girl was allegedly beaten by riot police that had been sent to the protest just in case. Whether or not the event happened is irrelevent at this point, but the rumour was enough to set off the more violent in the crowd. The original protesters, including the mans family, left at this point to disassociate themselves with the violence, but the rest of the protesters, including a sizeable crowd of oppurtunistic looters and vandals, started wreaking havoc. So far, the momentum of the original riots is spreading to urban areas around the country, whether due to an undercurrent of politically motivated bitterness or just an impulse to run rampant. I make no judgements myself, I just hope to explain as best I can for the non-brits/ brits who haven't kept up with the situation.

 

[DEAD34345]

Basically, a bunch of people have realised they can do whatever they want without consequences so long as they all do it at the same time. This has caused mass stealing, arson and riots across the country, and the police are afraid to do anything about it because whenever they do they get hit with lawsuits and other crap.

I still don't think our standard police should have guns, but they should certainly be able to harm criminals without repercussion if it is necessary to protect people or their property. At the moment, they don't seem able to do that, and it's not through any fault of their own.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Hugga_Bear]

What's happing? Oh nothing.

What's happening? Well in ENGLAND. No not Britain, England. It's a country look it up. There are riots going on, it's a mixture of things, general fury at the government (very valid fury, it must be said) anger at being ignored, mob mentality and so on all catalysed by one stupid incident where a police unit may or may not have killed a defenceless gang leader (presumably not, inquest ongoing).

anyway, once the shit hit the fan it hasn't stopped, the police are understaffed, undertrained, poorly led and underequipped leading them to call in reinforcements which meant less cops elsewhere so the riots spread. Meanwhile government and the media blame gangs of youths for the looting (when most are in their 20's-40's) which pisses them off and encourages them to join in.

Oh and for several years now there's been an undercurrent of racism in our police where black and asian kids have been stopped and searched under the bullshit terrorism act, all too often.

Basically lots of small fuckups, a few major ones and a spark to light the fire. Cue chaos.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

So, yeah, that's what's going down in London and the rest of the UK at the moment (why the hell is there rioting in Birmingham and Liverpool?!)

Possibly because this isn't a problem to do with a criminal getting shot and more to do with the general feel of social unrest after the massive cuts Conservatives have made to public welfare spending while leaving the rich largely untouched?

But nah, the hooting blowhards are probably right, everyone in Liverpool just saw the rioting and thought 'that looks like fun! I know I could be legitimately rioting because I'm downtrodden and poor and most of my benefits have eitehr already been taken away or are in danger of being taken away, but it'll be a better idea if some middle-class white boy on the internet can assert that I'm doing it because I just like violence d stealing shit!'

In the last year the Conservatives have made it a very bad idea to be poor or jobless. This is because they have an inbuilt hatred of the poor and jobless (I maintain that it's the Eton education that does it) so things are getting very bad for them.

Alright, all joking and sarcasm aside. People do not riot for no reason. There has been massive social unrest in Britain for some time because of the very unpopular cuts the Conservatives are making to the welfare and benefits system, depriving people who genuinely need the help. When a protest became a riot in London, it provided the excuse many needed to get out and start finally feeling like they might have some control over their lives, if only for one night.

A Tottenham Rioter, when asked if he thought the riots were achieving anything:

'Yes, You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you? Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you.'

The last time there were riots like this was the last time the Conservatives were in power doing exactly the same sort of shit they've started doing again. Oust these Ivory Tower motherfuckers I say.

 

[Therumancer]

Basic Story

Last Year:
Clegg Says Another Tory Government Will Cause Riot
Cameron Disagrees
Mae Reduces Police Support Saying No Need For It.

August 7th:
Police Go After Drug Dealers
Drug Dealer Waves Gun
Police Shoot Drug Dealer
Wife Calls for Enquiry
Youths Riot
Criminals Join In
Criminals Drive Up To Businesses, Load Up Cars, Torch Buildings
Bystanders Terrified And Assaulted
Criminals Use Blackberrys To Co-ordinate Attacks
Populace Use Twitter To Co-ordinate Cleanup
BookFace Is Used To Show Off
Police Arrest BookFacers
Cameron/Johnson Return From Holiday
"It's 'Bout Getting Our Taxes Back, Bruv!"
Britannia Weeps, John Bull Brings Brooms, Clears Mess Up.
Uninvolved People Call For Lethal Force

Tonight It Starts Again.

Well, I've read a few things claiming that they don't think that the police shooting had much to do with it, and that the causes were still being sought.

Otherwise, I'm one of those uninvolved people who has over a period of time come to think that they really do need to start using lethal force in these cases. The reason is simply that it's very difficult to arrest, or even identify everyone involved in things like this, never mind imprison them. Humane treatment of rioters, and the use of non-lethal methods simply results in the people feeling that there is no real risk involved in their actions. The goverment likely can't imprison them, they aren't in any serious risk of death, and anything they happen to grab or destroy is pure "profit" (in terms of goods, or pyrotechnic enjoyment).

I don't say this simply because I'm overseas from where this is happening, I've had similar thoughts watching riots all over the world in recent years, as well as situations like we dealt here in the US after Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. I think people would be a lot more less eager to loot and blow up cars, if during a state of emergency the police adopted a "shoot on sight" policy. As far as media backlash goes, I think there is enough precedent that can be shown of the humane methods not working to justify it.

To my way of thinking if your going to engage in an armed insurrection against the goverment, do it. Simply faffing about wrecking stores and such really doesn't accomplish anything, or do anything about the goverment or people you might be rioting against. At least drop the pretensions and do it right if your trying to make some kind of mass statement, go after city hall and the politicians or whatever. Burning down the stores of "rich people" just means those people will collect the insurance. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we have business owners torching their own places during this specifically to committ insurance fraud since it can be blamed on the riots.... this is not to say that I think the UK needs an armed revolution, I'm mostly writing this paragraph in response to all the people claiming that this is being done as some kind of statement against society and the status quo and as a couple of girls in a video put it "to show the rich we can do what we want". This liable isn't going to show any rich person anything but an insurance check.

 

[KoalaKid]

Long story short; a known criminal waved a replica gun at police officers, and the police officers, not knowing it was a replica (how could they, really?) shot him. His family staged a peaceful protest outside the station as the police were being vague about it all, then it got hijacked by rioters, then the idea that looting shops and stuff would be fun spread and now everyone is doing it for...some reason. I'm not sure what, but I'm guessing it has something to do with the fact that they want an HD TV and don't want to pay for it and hey look, that electronics shop has just had its window smashed, let's go there!


So, yeah, that's what's going down in London and the rest of the UK at the moment (why the hell is there rioting in Birmingham and Liverpool?!)

But I thought the enlightened Brits had absolutely done away with guns and that their police simply talked criminals out of behaving badly?

 

[Danny Ocean]

They've had enough of our shitty government and their pointless cuts and job losses so they vent their anger on the rich.

To be frank they deserve it!

Buh? What are you, fourtee- Oh. You are. Nevermind then.

But I thought the enlightened Brits had absolutely done away with guns and that their police simply talked criminals out of behaving badly?

Then your ignorance really knows no bounds.

 

[WillCourt]

Sorry to throw a cog in the works, but the truth is we actually just run out of tea.

 

[The Artificially Prolonged]

why do i want to listen to the clash right now?

Because it's always a good time to listen to The Clash ;D


On topic:
Just bottom feeders of the british public using a protest as an excuse to cause mayhem. I'm usually not for police brutality, but with 4 days of rioting and with the rioting spreading to my hometown I say go get 'em plods.

 

[eximista]

They've had enough of our shitty government and their pointless cuts and job losses so they vent their anger on the rich.

To be frank they deserve it!

Buh? What are you, fourtee- Oh. You are. Nevermind then.

You know what's the sad thing about that? He's way smarter then you are...

2011 - 1996 = 15... he is fifteen... do your math right - dude...

 

[Danny Ocean]

They've had enough of our shitty government and their pointless cuts and job losses so they vent their anger on the rich.

To be frank they deserve it!

Buh? What are you, fourtee- Oh. You are. Nevermind then.

You know what's the sad thing about that? He's way smarter then you are...

2011 - 1996 = 15... he is fifteen... do your math right - dude...

*Yawn*

I'm impressed by your ability to pick up mathematical errors, you are clearly are far more intelligent person than I am, and so is he, despite the fact that his post is still astoundingly ignorant, and your ability to do math in a hurry has nothing to do with his; and despite the fact that someone who is fifteen is also fourteen.

Yes, a small numerical error makes both him and you more intelligent than me, and therefore that makes him right, because intelligent people are always right, right?

Grow up.

Don't bother replying. It's passed my bed time.

 

[eximista]

They've had enough of our shitty government and their pointless cuts and job losses so they vent their anger on the rich.

To be frank they deserve it!

Buh? What are you, fourtee- Oh. You are. Nevermind then.

You know what's the sad thing about that? He's way smarter then you are...

2011 - 1996 = 15... he is fifteen... do your math right - dude...

*Yawn*

I'm impressed by your ability to pick up mathematical errors, you are clearly are far more intelligent person than I am, and so is he, despite the fact that his post is astoundingly ignorant.

Yes, a small numerical error makes both him and you more intelligent than me, and therefore that makes him right, because intelligent people are always right, right?

Grow up.

Don't bother replying. It's passed my bed time.

You started - with looking up his age - like it would matter. Grow up... and know go to bed.

 

[SammiYin]

Zombies.

Well, either zombies or the "great British public" showing off their astounding stupidity with a looting spree, rioting and being, well, British.

*spits tea on monitor* Good sir I am offended at your gross generalisation and would love to know what great public you're a part of! : p Trick question http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBWLH96MlPI Only Britain is great.

I, My good man, hail from none other than Her Majesty's glorious Britannia itself, however it is with great distaste that I must bear witness to such ghastly events from the rabble, we must stirrup our horses now and begin the ride for Queen and Country!

 

[poppabaggins]

Basic Story

Last Year:
Clegg Says Another Tory Government Will Cause Riot
Cameron Disagrees
Mae Reduces Police Support Saying No Need For It.

August 7th:
Police Go After Drug Dealers
Drug Dealer Waves Gun
Police Shoot Drug Dealer
Wife Calls for Enquiry
Youths Riot
Criminals Join In
Criminals Drive Up To Businesses, Load Up Cars, Torch Buildings
Bystanders Terrified And Assaulted
Criminals Use Blackberrys To Co-ordinate Attacks
Populace Use Twitter To Co-ordinate Cleanup
BookFace Is Used To Show Off
Police Arrest BookFacers
Cameron/Johnson Return From Holiday
"It's 'Bout Getting Our Taxes Back, Bruv!"
Britannia Weeps, John Bull Brings Brooms, Clears Mess Up.
Uninvolved People Call For Lethal Force

Tonight It Starts Again.

Well, I've read a few things claiming that they don't think that the police shooting had much to do with it, and that the causes were still being sought.

Otherwise, I'm one of those uninvolved people who has over a period of time come to think that they really do need to start using lethal force in these cases. The reason is simply that it's very difficult to arrest, or even identify everyone involved in things like this, never mind imprison them. Humane treatment of rioters, and the use of non-lethal methods simply results in the people feeling that there is no real risk involved in their actions. The goverment likely can't imprison them, they aren't in any serious risk of death, and anything they happen to grab or destroy is pure "profit" (in terms of goods, or pyrotechnic enjoyment).

I don't say this simply because I'm overseas from where this is happening, I've had similar thoughts watching riots all over the world in recent years, as well as situations like we dealt here in the US after Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. I think people would be a lot more less eager to loot and blow up cars, if during a state of emergency the police adopted a "shoot on sight" policy. As far as media backlash goes, I think there is enough precedent that can be shown of the humane methods not working to justify it.

To my way of thinking if your going to engage in an armed insurrection against the goverment, do it. Simply faffing about wrecking stores and such really doesn't accomplish anything, or do anything about the goverment or people you might be rioting against. At least drop the pretensions and do it right if your trying to make some kind of mass statement, go after city hall and the politicians or whatever. Burning down the stores of "rich people" just means those people will collect the insurance. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we have business owners torching their own places during this specifically to committ insurance fraud since it can be blamed on the riots.... this is not to say that I think the UK needs an armed revolution, I'm mostly writing this paragraph in response to all the people claiming that this is being done as some kind of statement against society and the status quo and as a couple of girls in a video put it "to show the rich we can do what we want". This liable isn't going to show any rich person anything but an insurance check.

Now I'm NOT arguing against the use of lethal force (after a significant warning and an imposed curfew), but:

You do realize that you're asking police to kill civilians, right? Killing people has a severe psychological impact, and if you order the police to kill people, you might just lose the support of said police. The same goes for the military. Yes, the rioters are clearly breaking the law, and I have no problem with them dying, but I don't think that there is a good way of delivering lethal force.

 

[MordinSolus]

Zombies.

Well, either zombies or the "great British public" showing off their astounding stupidity with a looting spree, rioting and being, well, British.

Personally, I think it's zombies. where else would Dead Rising 3 take place?

 

[Therumancer]

[
Now I'm NOT arguing against the use of lethal force (after a significant warning and an imposed curfew), but:

You do realize that you're asking police to kill civilians, right? Killing people has a severe psychological impact, and if you order the police to kill people, you might just lose the support of said police. The same goes for the military. Yes, the rioters are clearly breaking the law, and I have no problem with them dying, but I don't think that there is a good way of delivering lethal force.

I disagree, the danger inherant in doing something like this is that the goverment will become too apt to use lethal force in inappropriate situations. It's something that would have to be watched for that reason. After all there is a differance between shooting a looter or vandal during a state of emergency like a riot, and say blowing someone's head off for shoplifting or spray painting some graffiti when everything is operating normally. The thing you have to be careful of is to make sure that such emergency provisions are only used in times of obvious emergency and to prevent politicians from trying to turn everything into an Emergency so the police can blow some people away in pursuit of their interests.

In general a lot of first world nations have been able to responsibly use such emergency powers, people scream about atrocities after the fact, but in general as life gets back to normal people tend to forget about them if things work out, and then they come out again if really needed.

You are correct that there is no good way to use lethal force, it rather comes down to the situation. In a case like these where your dealing with people razing large sections of cities, you have to weigh the relative costs and pick the lesser of evils.

It's important to understand also that using lethal force in a situation like this is intended to inspire fear, to prevent people from doing things like this at all. Even if a lot of people die in one riot it becomes the lesser evil if you reduce the number of riots because of people deciding that they don't want to die. Under circumstances like a riot people aren't rational and a lot of warnings and such are going to castrate the whole point to begin with. The idea is to get people to feel that if they go break into a store during a riot they might have their life ended suddenly, and without warning. A guy isn't going to feel so great about running out to grab an HDTV if some cop with a shotgun might come around the corner any second and blow his head all over the place, or if he might be headed accross the street and be taken down by a police sniper on top of a building for grabbing a few DVDs.

What I'm advocating is brutal, but you have to weigh the costs, and understand that I'm saying this while looking a videos which have included burning stores and minimalls, and people throwing flash bang grenades into crowds for Lulz while recording it on their cellphobe camera, to say nothing of the dudes smugly posing with their loot on Facebook, who definatly seem likely to run right out there to do it again given the oppertunity... and the lack of any kind of fear or regret pretty much guarantees this is going to happen again because all of those dudes are going to want it to, and it's going to get worse due to people seeing that and figuring "damn, he got away with it, let's have another riot so I can get cool stuff too!".

Even in a worse case scenario if the police like massacre like 20,000 people and the media starts screaming about how it's the UK version of Kent State (which wasn't like how the media presents it to begin with) or Tiamen Square , look carefully at the devestation, and think about how 20,000 people today could save hundreds of thousands or even millions of people and countless amounts of damage in everything that it presents. Of course understand that I don't actually expect it to come to something like that. Truthfully I think once the police or army hit the streets and kill a couple of dozen people (a few in each city) a lot of the rioting is going to disperse. When your looking at some dead bodies and realize the police mean business and your not armed for a fight (this is a loot-fest, not an armed riot) I think most people are going to run away and end the problem, rather than trying to charge armed troops and cause a massacre like that. This isn't the Gaza strip or whatever, the people here aren't fighting for their homeland (from their perspective) they are out to loot DVDs, electronics, and junk food. Nobody is liable to want to die for that... and oddly those same motives are why I have no sympathy at all for them.

 

[ThatLankyBastard]

I'm wondering the same thing bro...

All I know is, shit went down the drain hardcore...

 

[SammiYin]

Zombies.

Well, either zombies or the "great British public" showing off their astounding stupidity with a looting spree, rioting and being, well, British.

Personally, I think it's zombies. where else would Dead Rising 3 take place?

Haha I can see it now, Deadrising 3: London, more looters than zombies and it's up to Boris Johnson to stop them!

 

[SilentCom]

First casualty of the riots confirmed.
26 year old male, shot dead in his car by rioters.

Ladies and Gentlemen, shit just got real.

Yep, and it wasn't the police that caused the first casuality either. What little "credibility" the rioters had is now lost seeing that they aren't in opposition to police brutality but rather they are the ones causing the brutality.

 

[MordinSolus]

Zombies.

Well, either zombies or the "great British public" showing off their astounding stupidity with a looting spree, rioting and being, well, British.

Personally, I think it's zombies. where else would Dead Rising 3 take place?

Haha I can see it now, Deadrising 3: London, more looters than zombies and it's up to Boris Johnson to stop them!

Yes, and Boris must figure out what's going on, why he can't leave the vicinity, why he can't bone the main female character, and why an American motocross champ and an American photographer who keeps yelling "Fantastic" are in London.