What makes the Empire in Star Wars evil?

blackrave

New member
Mar 7, 2012
2,020
0
0
Nimzabaat said:
Dangit2019 said:
But Alderaan didn't have any gathering enemies...they blew it up just to show how big their space-dicks were and anger Princess Leia.
Yeah it was a World War II reference.

OT: In the original trilogy there's every indication that the Empire wasn't really evil. Vader's (before "Darth" became a title) reference to "there'll be no escape for you this time" clearly meant that he was being pushed and was stretching the law, which meant there were laws and processes protecting civil liberties. There's also an interesting theory about how the Stormtroopers had trouble shooting civilians because they weren't trained to do that. They seemed to shoot just fine when it was against people in uniform. Then again there's also the mention that blowing up the first Death Star was killing Imperial soldiers who understood the risks of their jobs. Blowing up the second Death Star included a lot of innocent contractors with families. Yeah the Rebels were terrorists and by succeeding in taking down the Empire they just caused a lot of chaos and killed a lot of innocent people.
^This

I personally consider it as some sort of brainwashing that democratic state is always good
No it isn't
Democratic=/=good
Autocratic=/=evil


What was truly evil in Empire? Management.
Simple as that- without Palpatine and Darth Vader Empire could actually turn into something really good
And I expect this from EpVII, that Empire will try to right its wrongs and do something good for its citizens, now that the Palpatine is out of the way and Emperor is someone more sane and adequate

Altorin said:
autocracy
Thanks, that was the word I was searching for- autocracy
 

Soviet Heavy

New member
Jan 22, 2010
12,218
0
0
Frankster said:
Soviet Heavy said:
I find it hard to believe the disarmement would apply to the Alderaanian nobles, not least cos of their attitudes and their tendency to view themselves as above such petty restrictions. The problem with violence and weapons didnt come from any alderaanian police but the squabbles of the nobles who had their own personal armies. I really cant see them disarming their entire houses, not least cos of their dimissive snobby attitudes.

Alderaan was more then just a hotbed for sympathisers, it had an active role in supplying and helping with the rebel movement. Princess Leia being the best example right there, constantly protesting her innocence or how they are on a "peaceful diplomatic mission" but actually smuggling top secret plans that would change the course of the war...

And you misunderstand me, im not attempting to justify Alderaans destruction as moral or good in anyway, and not even trying to say destroying an entire planet of people is anything less then irrevocably evil.

Also imo the average person of alderaan would have no clue of all this, they are all just servants and serfs to the mighty snobby Alderaanian nobles (TOR was a real eye opener in this regard).
Again, TOR Alderaan =/= Film Alderaan. Not every country or planet stays the same for three thousand years.
 

Nimzabaat

New member
Feb 1, 2010
886
0
0
Warachia said:
Nimzabaat said:
Just because the contractors knew that their job might be dangerous doesn't give anyone the right to murder them. And besides, they were building an instrument for galactic peace. That's what trying to own everything is, the quest for peace.
Besides there was every indication in the original trilogy that the Rebellion itself pushed the Emperor and Lord Vader into using more extreme methods to stop them. For all we know if the Empire had succeeded in trapping and destroying the Rebels at Endor, he may have reinstated the senate and let everyone relax. There may even have been a tax rebate since the Imperial military would have been able to scale back :) Palpatine bucks for everybody! (Which is way better than palpating bucks for everyone, they feel disgusting)
Come on, I know you don't really believe this bullshit, "they were building an instrument for galactic peace" is so laughably wrong I'm having trouble focusing on the rest of your argument, they knew exactly what it was for, they never said they were building it to "keep the peace", they were building it to blow up the rebels and stop any other resistance before it starts, by blowing up Alderan (a utopia) as a demonstration of their power. I actually missed when you said "That's what trying to own everything is, the quest for peace" because I couldn't get over the earlier statement, owning everything is absolutely NOT the quest for peace, it's the quest for owning and ruling everything, Palpatine did it because he's greedy, hates the previous system, and wants to see his ideals spread throughout the galaxy (ideals that encourage slavery, selling out friends and murder).

"Besides there was every indication in the original trilogy that the Rebellion itself pushed the Emperor and Lord Vader into using more extreme methods to stop them." No there isn't, the empire were building the death star regardless of whether the rebels showed up and never once took them seriously as a threat (until they stole the death star plans which might have been the thing that put them on the empire's radar), though the worst statement is "There may even have been a tax rebate since the Imperial military would have been able to scale back :)" Of course there wouldn't, he'd use it as an excuse to create more star destroyers, death stars, and might even enforce mandatory military service.

Also, even in the original trilogy they mention Palpatine destroyed the senate when he rose to power, and has been in power for some time before the rebels appeared on their radar, I have no idea why you'd even think he'd reinstate the senate, especially after you see how he encourages backstabbing as a way of rising through ranks, and sees killing people as a way to inspire others.

Captcha: that's what she said (for some reason written in Olde style font)
Actually it's called devils advocate and it's fun.
Any Empire building is for the purpose of peace. If everyone is under the same flag there is no violence. Period. No one has succeeded at that yet (well the Romans came close), but it is still the ultimate goal. Denying that is just naive.
"There will be no escape for the princess this time". Vader had been after the Rebellion for a while. Who knew what other innocent victims the Rebels had? He was plenty pissed off by that point, we can only guess as to why. It's outside of the scope of the movies as to what Darth Vader was like before dealing with the Rebellion.
As for the rebate that was a joke. But seriously once the Rebellion was out of the way and there was peace in the galaxy again, why wouldn't Palpatine be more magnanimous? You assume he wouldn't, but without any evidence to back that up. That's like if R2-D2 screwed one more info socket he would go on a rampage and detonate his astromech-destroy-the-galaxy-device and that would be it for everyone. I can make half-assed assumptions too.
I also like how people jump on the "slavery" (which the Empire wasn't involved in during the original trilogy or the prequels) and "torture" (it was a droid with a syringe, probably not as horrific as what constitutes torture in our world) aspects. People love embellishing those things without any actual basis. The Hutts had slaves but the Empire and the Hutts weren't exactly on the same page. For all we know once the Rebellion was out of the way the Empire may have had the resources to take down the Hutts and free all of those slaves. We'll never know now.
And doesn't anyone remember that good guys wear white? Those stormtroopers believed that they were the good guys and they were out there to enforce law and order. And TIE Pilots were camouflaged in case they got ejected into space ;)
 

PedroSteckecilo

Mexican Fugitive
Feb 7, 2008
6,732
0
0
Well lets run down a list of stuff from the Original Trilogy shall we (avoiding EU for the time being)...

- Religious Persecution (The Jedi)
- Slaughter of Innocents (Jawas, The Lars Family, The Entire Planet of Alderaan)
- Racism (No Aliens in the Imperial Army)
- Suppression of Democracy (Disbanding the Senate)
- Torture (Leia, Han, Luke)

But yeah, in the Original Trilogy it's really the destruction of Alderaan that is supposed to paint the Empire as evil. Destroying an entire planet as a "Demonstration" of the power of the Death Star? Pretty hard core...

The EU expands a lot on the "evil of the empire" with a lot more on the racism and slavery and the fact that they've destroyed many, many planets through means less efficient than The Death Star (Camaas being a prominent one). Similarly if you want to go into some "Force Philosophy" the Empire was evil because it couldn't be anything else, when you turn to The Dark Side you effectively become a tool for your Id. So basically The Emperor's goal was to "push it as far as he could" as far as conquest and power grabbing goes, he may have originally had a somewhat "noble" goal (organize the Galaxy to fight The Vong, which I guess makes sense... but the Vong are stupid, so I have trouble accepting that rationality) but any "noble" goals become completely corrupted by The Dark Side ala Anakin regardless of which trilogy you decide to read into.

However the EU also shows the other side of The Empire through characters like Thrawn, Paelleon and Jagged Fel.

Heck if you want to go even further the Fel Empire in the Star Wars: Legacy comics is what the Empire would have looked like if it wasn't evil. While its still ruled by an Emperor and still incredibly Authoritarian it "gets along" with The Galactic Alliance (what the New Republic turned into) in a diplomatic sense and does use nearly the same brutal suppression tactics that the previous Empire did (though it definitely has its Dark Side it is far less evil than Palpatine's Empire).
 

Spade Lead

New member
Nov 9, 2009
1,042
0
0
burningdragoon said:
They blew up a planet. Period full stop. The fact that you tried to spin that to be a positive thing makes it look like you are either trolling or poorly trying to play devil's advocate, especially since your justification is false.

There's more to it than that, for sure, but to reiterate: They blew up an entire planet to show off that they can blow up an an entire fucking planet.
I am getting tired of seeing this while no one expounds upon it.

Alderaan HAD DISARMED! There were not only no weapons of mass destruction on Alderaan, the Alderaanians themselves had given up their ABILITY to make war. They piled all of their weapons on a few cruisers and then sent them off randomly into space to be recovered in the event they were ever needed, but only when they returned every decade or so. Does that sound like a nest of troublesome and military minded rebels set on bringing down the Empire through force of arms? No, the rebels on Alderaan were vocal in the senate, and THAT is also why the senate was disbanded.
 

Spade Lead

New member
Nov 9, 2009
1,042
0
0
scarfacetehstag said:
And I feel the need to protect that idea of the Sith being better because they allow marriage and shit.
The Sith order DOESN'T allow marriage. In everthing ever written about the Sith, it encourages the Sith to be islands of power, because "relationships are weapons to be used against our opponents, and weaknesses to be avoided."
 

Bernzz

Assumed Lurker
Legacy
Mar 27, 2009
1,655
3
43
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
What makes them evil? They enslaved the entire populace of Wookiees on Kashyyyk. As well as countless other species that were enslaved just 'cos.

Oh, and yeah, they blew up Alderaan.

Pro-tip: when two things that can be readily associated with you are 'slavery of entire races' and 'genocide on a planetary scale', you aren't the good guys.
 

trooper6

New member
Jul 26, 2008
873
0
0
The Empire is evil for all the reasons mentioned...but the old Republic didn't seem much better if you were the common man.
The Old Republic had a Senate...full of, it seems, monarchs. Monarchs are not democratically elected (Padme notwithstanding). The Jedi and the Republic seemed to not have too much of a problem with slavery and lots of beings had no representation.

If you were part of the proletariat it sucked being under either system.
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
14,334
0
0
Except they didn't blow up Alderaan to because the rebels were gathering there, because they weren't gathering there. They blew up Alderaan just to show off the power of the Death Star.
Also they were a tyrannical dictatorship, and if I'm not mistaken they oppressed most races that weren't human, although that could've just been EU, but they were still a tyrannical dictatorship. They ruled through fear and intimidation and had no qualms about blowing up anyone who disagreed with them. That's sounds pretty evil to me.
 

Frezzato

New member
Oct 17, 2012
2,448
0
0
The Empire could have been total jerks had they wanted, even more so than the movies suggest:

 

Spade Lead

New member
Nov 9, 2009
1,042
0
0
Apollo45 said:
Technically, if you want to get into extended universe stuff, the galaxy would have been better off in the long run if the Empire had continued to exist. Not long afterwards the galaxy is invaded by an extra-galactic race and the New Republic is very nearly wiped out. They partially accomplished this by infiltrating the Senate and screwing things up. If the Empire had remained in control not only would they have not been able to influence anything, since Palpatine was the only one in control, but they also would have come up against a united galaxy with a military force capable of decimating entire planets without batting an eyelash. The invaders would've been boned, to put it lightly. Instead they came upon a fractured, weak New Republic and were able to very nearly dominate the galaxy. All of that, however, doesn't stop the Empire from being evil. It just means that sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
You sir, have condensed a 19 book series into a paragraph blurb that makes it both awesome and a must-read. Bravo good sir. Bravo.

That said, in the series itself Han says:
"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
―Han Solo, to Vana Dorja

To which Van responds: "Chuckles. 'You are probably right.'"
 

MetalMagpie

New member
Jun 13, 2011
1,523
0
0
hooglese said:
In the movies, the Imperials/Dark Side are a democratic republic, they kept the galaxy in peace, they only blew up Alderaan because the enemy was gathering there and they allowed freedom to express emotion while the light side of the force achieved none of this.

*Note that I am excluding the latest movies because they were just garbage.
The Senate is dissolved at the start of A New Hope (it's mentioned by Grand Moff Tarkin in dialogue). I think what he said next was, "The regional governors now have direct control over their systems". It's officially a dictatorship from that point.

And blowing up an entirely planet (home to millions of innocent people) because they disagreed with your dictatorship plans does seem a little evil. Again, Tarkin accepts in the film that Alderaan is not a military target and that blowing it up is just a demonstration of the station's power.
 

Bullfrog1983

New member
Dec 3, 2008
568
0
0
The Empire is an empire not a democracy. They blew up Alderaan, enslaved the Wookies, and take what they want by force instead of through negotiation when they slaughter Luke's uncle and aunt to find the droids. The Empire also works for the Sith who believe in murdering or discrediting those above them to rise in power. All in all pretty much not the good guys.
 

sonofliber

New member
Mar 8, 2010
245
0
0
you people are dealing with absolutes.

the empire was grey, sure they did bad things, but they also mantain peace thru power (meaning war between sectors and those kind of stuff were a nono), let me ask you this, how many people died when the empire rule (not counting actions taken because of those pesky rebels (so alderaan is a no)), and how many died because of the vong invasion thanks to a weak but free republic?
 

Frankster

Space Ace
Mar 13, 2009
2,507
0
0
Soviet Heavy said:
Again, TOR Alderaan =/= Film Alderaan. Not every country or planet stays the same for three thousand years.
Aye that may be, i just dont believe Alderaan would have had such dramatic changes so until some source says otherwise i will assume Alderaan has remained very much nobility driven (princess leia being the obvious example). Heck the entire assumption of Alderaan being this peaceful planet truly not being a threat comes entirely from princess leia, not exactly the most credible source, as her "we are just on a diplomatic mission!" line shows, she has said some BS in the films.

Either way all im saying is that if i was Evil Emperor of the empire, id go for Alderaan in a flash as its the most visible thorn in my side that has done nothing but constantly give the empire the finger whilst hiding behind litigation and claims of innocence and peace all whilst aiding those trying to overthrow me.
 

Spade Lead

New member
Nov 9, 2009
1,042
0
0
I want to play devil's advocate now. From the beginning:

Palpatine grew up on a backrocket planet in the mid-rim, seeing rampant corruption and a government that frequently failed to live up to it's intended goals. He was trained by a Sith named Darth Plagueis, one of the enlightened Sith who believed that the Force was both Life and Death, who wanted to instill in his Acolyte the need for balance in the Force. Palpatine thought that this meant he needed to bring down the Jedi, when in reality Plagueis was trying to teach him to find inner peace.

When it came time for Palpatine to become a Sith Lord, he betrayed his master and murdered him in his sleep. Now bearing the title Darth Sidious, he arranged a way for the corruption of the Trade Federation to be brought to light.

Unfortunately, the corruption in the senate completely ignored the massive abuses the Trade Federation perpetrated against Naboo, and he saw no choice but to step in himself and try to enact justice. When he assumed the Chancellery, he assumed he could begin hacking away at the corruption immediately. When that failed, he established the Confederacy through his new acolyte, Darth Tyrannus, who was at one point already a Jedi Master. Tyrannus, already disillusioned with the Jedi, took Palpatine's extremes in the Sith Teachings even further.

Unfortunately, he began to double deal behind Palpatine's back, as dark Sith are wont to do, and Darth Sidious was no longer in control of the CIS as he had intended. When Tyrannus ordered his capture, Palpatine realized that he could never trust a fully powerful Sith Lord as his equal or underling. He ordered Anakin to kill Tyrannus to cover for his mistakes, and to help free him from the Jedi's destructive and inhibiting dogma.

Unfortunately, as Anakin came to understand more about the truth of the Force, he was still fighting the Jedi dogma, and when he realized that Palpatine was trained as a Sith, he assumed that Palpatine was evil, which he learned was wrong when the Jedi tried to assume power in the galaxy by assassinating the duly elected Chancellor. When Anakin witnessed this first hand, he broke the shackles of his Imperialist "Masters" and began to correct his mistakes in understanding. Palpatine, in a moment of anger, ordered the complete destruction of the Jedi, without stopping to think about the consequences. He enacted "Order 66," a safeguard meant to stop any Jedi who went rogue from further damaging the Republic. (The proof of this lies in the fact that he had to call each squad leader individually, rather than just broadcasting a mass "Order 66" message to all units with Jedi assigned.) While Anakin was charged with taking over the Jedi Temple, he was also angered and betrayed that those he looked on as his only family had done this horrible thing. In his anger, he simply started fighting his way through the Jedi remnants, until when he got to the chamber where the Jedi Younglings were hiding, he was so worked up with anger that he couldn't control himself. He may even have worked himself into such a rage that he doesn't remember slaughtering the younglings.

Palpatine was appalled by his actions, having at first intended to train the younglings in the correct views of the force, but he eventually came to understand that at least most of them would have been hard to convert, having lived with Jedi dogma for as long as they can remember.

When he learned of the Separatist Leader's hideout, he dispatched his acolyte Darth Vader to capture them. Again, misunderstanding his orders, Vader "Captured" the leaders with his lightsaber.

Palpatine was doing his best to correct his past mistakes, and reorganized the Republic into the First Galactic Empire with only his most trusted allies found in positions of power. The ones he could trust.

Yoda attacked the Emperor in his suite, attempting to complete the botched assassination that his peers had failed. Luckily the Emperor's Sith training allowed him to hold off the Jedi assassin, who at every turn prevented Palpatine from escaping when he attempted to flee.

At the same time, Darth Vader's former master joined him at Mustafar, attempting to turn him against the Emperor and back to the Jedi way, so that they could overthrow the Emperor and restore "freedom" to the galaxy. Vader saw through his ploys, especially the manipulation of his own wife against him, and engaged in a furious duel with his former master.

Vader was so damaged psychologically by this fight that he could not bring himself to fully immerse in the Force and even restrained himself from hurting his master as much as possible. When Obi-wan cut him down, and left him to die in that lava pit, Darth Vader called out to Palpatine, who heard his call and immediately came to his rescue.

Seeing the true beliefs of the Jedi at this time, both knew that the galaxy would never be safe until this menace was wiped away. They immediately began looking for all of the information they could find about the Confederacy and it's military spending, as there were massive amounts of missing funds and warships. This eventually lead to the discovery of a black project called the "Death Star." The construction was fully funded, and nearing completion when it was found, 16 years after the fall of the CIS. The Emperor put his friend Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin in charge of the station.

The rebel alliance, intending to build it's own Death Star, stole the plans for the station, and transmitted them to Princess Leia of Alderaan, who was going to smuggle them into her home system, where fund-raising could begin for this massive project. Vader intercepted her and took her to the fully operational Death Star, intending to show her the consequences of that decision.

Tarkin, eager to try out his new Doctrine, "rule through fear of force, rather than force itself," ordered the destruction of Alderaan due to it's intention to build weapons of mass destruction.

When the rebel criminals broke the Princess out of prison, the Empire got lucky enough track the Millenium Falcon to it's home base. Having no fleet within strike distance, the Grand Moff decided to pilot the Death Star into the system and draw the rebels out in an engagement they couldn't win. Unfortunately, the rebels had time to analyze the plans and found a weakness. They destroyed the Death Star with one shot, killing over 1 Million people, including innocent bar tenders and reporters who were onboard for the decomissioning ceremony.

The Emperor, concerned that other planets could get their hands on the plans, immediately ordered the construction of a second Death Star, to be used to engage any other Death Star. This one was fitted with an even more powerful laser that could be fired at different power-levels, and was capable of targeting ships down to cruiser size for self defense.

Meanwhile, Darth Vader began the furious search for the leader of the rebels, Luke Skywalker, his son. When he found his son's friends stranded on Bespin's Cloud City, he let word filter out that he had them, and waited for Luke to come to him. Luke charged into battle, hopelessly outmatched by the man who he so desperately wanted to destroy. When Vader revealed his true heritage, and explained the truth of the Force, Luke chose to jump to safety rather than face the truth.

The Emperor, fearing the rise of a new order of Jedi, trained by Luke Skywalker, sought safety aboard this new defense platform, until such time as it was made operational. He feared a massive raid by the rebels that would result in his capture like had happened at the end of the previous war.

When the rebels, lead by Skywalker himself attacked the second Death Star, he ordered the fleet to be engaged by the Death Star. As rebel ships began to fall, Skywalker entered the throne room and engaged Darth Vader. Darth Vader was no match for the younger Skywalker, whom he tried to once again to enlighten. Skywalker refused to listen, and struck down Vader, then turned on the Emperor, who was unable to defend himself at his advanced age.

When the Death Star was destroyed, Luke began traveling the galaxy, spreading the story that Vader had realized the wrongness of his actions and destroyed the Emperor himself to atone for his actions in an effort to build goodwill feelings towards the rebellion which had, overnight, destabilized an entire galaxy.
 

Spade Lead

New member
Nov 9, 2009
1,042
0
0
Frankster said:
Aye that may be, i just dont believe Alderaan would have had such dramatic changes so until some source says otherwise i will assume Alderaan has remained very much nobility driven (princess leia being the obvious example). Heck the entire assumption of Alderaan being this peaceful planet truly not being a threat comes entirely from princess leia, not exactly the most credible source, as her "we are just on a diplomatic mission!" line shows, she has said some BS in the films.

Either way all im saying is that if i was Evil Emperor of the empire, id go for Alderaan in a flash as its the most visible thorn in my side that has done nothing but constantly give the empire the finger whilst hiding behind litigation and claims of innocence and peace.
But, you assume that nothing could change that drastically in just 3,000 years? Seriously sit down and think about that. In the last 100 years, Russia went from being an Empire under an Emperor, to a Socialist haven under Lenin, to a Dictatorship under Stalin, back to Socialist, and now to a more democratically minded Federation since 1991. All that in just 100 years. To assume that things won't change much in 3,000 years is ridiculous. Can you even name one nation-state that was around 3,000 years ago? And if you can, when did it fall?