What Was What in Avengers

[Therumancer]

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This post is a lot better than your initial one. I have to say that much.

You are referring to a different point in the Infinity Gauntlet than I am. I strictly referred to his fight with the heroes. Not the fight with the celestial cohort. I was referring to this incident;
http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/The_Infinity_Gauntlet_04-09.jpg

I never said that the Hulk has not beaten teams of superheroes, but that matters little. I replied to your comment about cosmic characters barely slowing him down. The only cosmic regular you see on super-hero teams is Thor, and as I'm sure you recall, Thor and Hulk held eachother in place for minutes, hours even. Once you start going up the ladder, there's nothing impressive about the Hulk beating up Iron Man, Wonder Man and Namor. The teams are vastly inferior to the sum of their parts and the Hulk isn't a character you can "chip down". He obviously benefits from having "lesser" opponents wail on him, it's fuel.

There are many simple solutions to the Hulk problem. And the reason why they are not considered is obviously due to editorial management. There is nothing Reed Richards should not be able to accomplish given what he's done. You obviously cannot just have them "Cure" one of Marvel's best selling, and most famous, characters.

Like I mentioned, and I get the feeling that you ignored major parts of my post for you certainly did not reply to them, Mindless Hulk is the strongest he should have been. Regardless of that, why would you be "wow"ed by Secret Wars? He BRACED part of a mountainside, Banner himself mentions this, and this was not the same as lifting it. But even that isn't such a big deal because he's held together tectonic plates in planet hulk, but even that is a far cry from when Thor braces worlds against Kang or Karnilla.

Hulk has hundreds of weakness and relying on energy might be his greatest one.

You did not really try to defend any of your wild claims. There's nothing the Hulk has done to warrant a victory over Thanos, or wild claims that several cosmic characters can not slow him down. I have no interest in discussing how movie-hulk would do against anyone or who he is similar to. That would be pure speculation.

Actually there have been plenty of occasions where characters with The Power Cosmic or similar levels of power (Quasar, Thor, Sersei, etc...) have shown up to try and stop The Hulk, and have failed. I don't think it's something that can be sanely debated if you know the subject to begin with.

The bit with Thanos saying "I'm going to give them a chance" is debatable given reveals later in the story where it was made clear that Thanos did not have mastery over the powers. Indeed he might very well have thought he was in a position to make such a gesture when he really wasn't.

At any rate, the point about The Hulk wasn't directly from my opinion. As I stated in my initial post, that's something Marvel themselves pointed out (in Wizard I believe, in a retrospective) in answering questions about what characters got to be present in that fight, since there was a whole universe of heroes that didn't wind up (and practically they couldn't use all of them), some were excluded simply because they would have had a way to beat him and ruin the story, others were redundant, and given the nature of the story they wanted as many big (as in well known) characters as they could to be at the forefront. Some like The Hulk had to be written in a way that they wouldn't de-rail the entire battle. It's hard to prove at this point, but I stand by it, and it does make sense if you've followed The Hulk. If Thanos either can't or won't (for the purposes of this discussion it doesn't much matter) just alter reality to kill everyone, what is he going to do to The Hulk? Energy blasts? The Hulk when he's mad enough can take as much powerful as comically powered guys dish out. Is he going to punch him? Good luck with that. Mind control might work if it got in BEFORE he got bad enough to just cause a massive telepathic feedback loop on whomever tried it (sometimes mentalism can calm him down, sometimes it has the person trying it going "argghh! the rage, I can't handle it! argggh!". As I said, Thanos really would have just wound up with a foot print in his face, but that issue never arose because we had "rational hulk" who was tough, but not anything close to his full power level.

It's sort of like how even leading up to that point none of the characters who probably could have stopped Thanos cold in even getting that far were around, or at their full power if they were.

I mean don't get me wrong, Thanos is a tough villain, but he's not all that.

I'm also not saying that The Hulk has no weaknesses, being STUPID when he's at full power is one of them for example, another is the fact that he has to become enraged and continue to get madder and madder to reach his full level of power. Really, the easiest way to deal with The Hulk is more or less to leave him alone.

 

[Therumancer]

Wait....how do you make a Skrulls film without marvels heroes?

Marvel has liscenced out it's properties to differant companies. Apparently the Skrulls went with the Fantastic Four liscence with is under contract so Marvel/Disney can't use the properties that went along with it.

It's sort of like how Universal Studios has the Marvel "Island Of Adventure" as part of it's park and Disney can't do anything similar despite owning Marvel until the liscence expires.

 

[pdgeorge]

More information about Death:
Death isn't just a skeleton, she has a skull for a head however her body is the standard corpse look (grey, looks like it has no blood) however, she is freaking HOT. I can't find a link to the picture but there is a scene with death showing off her body and Deadpool is in a hot tub with whip cream on his nipples.
Oh right, Death is in love with Deadpool and Deadpool is in love with Death as well.

Thanos wants to be with Death but he can't if Deadpool ever actually dies so part of the reason Deadpool can't die is because Thanos cursed him with life so that he can have a better chance at winning Deaths heart. Also part of the reason Death is in love with Deadpool is because he's the only one (according to her) who has come so close to her and keeps leaving her.

I'm willing to bet in the Deadpool movie there is at least one occurance where Deadpool dies and meets death.

 

[Scarecrow]

Also take note that Death not only has breasts, she has BIG breats!

Spoiler

Hell, even I think she looks kinda hot.

 

[Shirokurou]

Actually throughout all of the Avengers, i was hoping that the main bad would be Dormammu... That would've been so awesome.
But hey, even though I had to look up who Thanos was, I'll definitely look forward to the bastard.

 

[Therumancer]

I'll just get to your other post here, without quoting it;

Sersi is much of a one-trick pony, and unless she can transmute him then she doesn't really do anything. Quasar himself also varies greatly, and Thor's dropped him with a single blow (due to a weakness to magic). But this is not what I asked for. You said that multiple cosmic heroes could barely slow him down.

And don't be a jackass and just write off "energy blasts" as a standard kind of attack. Nor does Thanos have any kind of reality altering abilities. Manipulating energy is a completely different matter, and Thanos COULD just ruin the Hulk that way, he's done it to a dozen others.

Well, as I said in a previous message, it depends on how angry The Hulk is. As his rage grows he becomes stronger and more invulnerable. Someone like Spidey or Captain America could handle him under the right circumstances if he wasn't that mad, or fairly in control. Not to mention some of the "variet" Hulks (Grey Hulk, etc...) which were less powerfu overall.

Thor has tried to stop The Hulk in the past along with the Avengers, including his hammer, and usually winds up being able to stand toe to toe with him for a while, but typically winds up getting thrown through walls and such. The same can be said of other strong men like "The Thing" who has had some pretty epic brawls with The Hulk but ultimatly winds up on the losing end.

Now there IS an exception to this, in the alternate "Spider Girl" universe they had a brawl where The Hulk got taken over by Loki and was sent after the other heroes, and you pretty much had everyone there was jump on him and get smacked down. In that universe Thor stopped him, but he was the reigning King of Asgard and pretty much unleashed the Odinforce on him (ie the powers he had as the King of Asgard).

Hold on now, old son. This is just a lie.

- In Journey into mystery 112 Thor has Hulk, lets down his guard and gets thrown away. He buries the Hulk in a mountain of debris and he can't find him. Thor did nothing but him in this fight.

- In Sub-Mariner 35 the fight is stopped by another foe, here they were physical equals again. Thor used no other powers and had the 60 second limitation on him.

- Defenders 10, the more infamous example. Here they end up physically stalemating eachother hour an hour. No exotic powers used by Thor;
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsHulk12.jpg

- Incredible Hulk 255. They are equals, yet Thor is constantly holding back. He drops his hammer to help civilians, while the Hulk wails on him. He eventually turns back into Jake. No exotic powers used.

- Incredible Hulk 300. This is also a good one, Thor vs Mindless Hulk. They throw eachother around a bit and Dr.Strange eventually shows up. No exotic powers used.

- Thor 385, my personal favourite. Hulk gets pounded when Thor uses Mjolnir (nothing more than physical hits) so he threatens to kill a woman if Thor doesn't throw it away. Thor does so and they do a few rounds. Eventually the Hulk just leaves and Thor contemplates how he's turning into a monster himself. No exotic powers used.

- Thor 489, they both look equals and stop fighting to deal with Hela. No exotic powers.

- Incredible Hulk 440. Maestero vs Thor (warrior madness, though this is technically impossible). They are equals until the Hulk punches Thor away from a nuke. Here Thor uses lightning once and brings the Hulk down, yet stops doing so for no reason. Stupid fight, since a Nuke shouldn't do that much to either of them. Thor and Wonder Man have shrugged off nukes for chrissakes.

- Incredible Hulk Annual 25. Thor knocks out Hulk with a single lightningblast and carries him away. Hulk wakes up a while later and attacks. Thor gets up and they fight. In this fight Thor keeps him down with the rain, but stops since civilians are being hurt.

- There's Hulk: Let the battle begin, where Banner recalls of dream of fighting and beating Thor. The Writer had to recant this.

- Avengers 3 Thor is holding back against both Namor and Hulk, because he both considers them mortals. Someone is he pledged to protect.

- There's also the time when Diablo created several hulks, merged them into one being and Thor knocked the heavens out that one.

- Finally there is Odinforce Thor killing the Hulk and the Thing. Kicker is that he didn't have the Odinforce due to Strange and the council of Skyfathers. He was just Thor without Mjolnir.

These examples are all 616. They are all examples of Standard Thor (not masterson)and his one on ones with the Hulk. One one fight was ever finished, and that ended with Thor knocking out the Hulk with a single lightning-bolt to the head. Not a single fight had Thor use any kind of energy blast/absorption/teleporting, and only two had him use lightning once. There are a few cases of Thor creating shields that the Hulk couldn't penetrate, but that's about it. Most of the fights have Thor fight the Hulk on his terms, even when there's the danger of him turning human.

If you look to Thor v2, when he is training Tarene. He mentions that he rarely uses any kind of energy attack on earth due to the fallout. Looking at his history, and even his fights with the hulk, he would rather die himself than accidentally take a life when fighting the Hulk or anyone for that matter.

Again though, how angry is The Hulk at this point? Is he rampaging? Your also looking at situations where Thor was being headlined. Do some searchs for say "Hulk Vs. The Avengers".

Now you ARE correct that there have been plenty of unresolved situations between The Hulk and Thor, but your generally not seeing The Hulk's full power level during those confrontations. For example one classic is Thor tricking The Hulk into trying to lift his hammer (which he can't do, due to the magic), and similar things. The trick here is that it's The Hulk at his regular power level... which goes back to the central point about Thanos, and why The Hulk was a "smart" one at that point, a lot of characters could have beaten The Hulk at that point.

You seem to be confusing his full power level, with differant ways the character has been portrayed.

Also if you want to talk something as trivial as comics, don't sit there and call me a liar, that's offensive and I'm liable to just ignore you. It's pretty bloody silly, what are you implying, that I have some insane, vested, interest in trying to convince people that The Hulk is that powerful if I didn't believe it to be true? To be honest The Hulk isn't even my favorite marvel character, I'm simply pointing this out as it applies to the Infinity Gauntlet storyline and was laid down by the creators. Thanos is tough and powerful, but not all that.

... and for the record, If Hulk can be reasoned with, your comment in "Mindless Hulk", he is thus not operating at his full power level, the same basic arguement.

When it comes to "exotic powers" being used, a lot of it is simply that The Hulk mostly just used strength tricks when he does something fancy, occasional bouts of super breath, hand clapping shockwaves... at one point he inhaled Mister Fantastic and spit him out (Contest Of Champions 2 I believe). Most of what Thor has when properly written wouldn't really do much to The Hulk, and Thor himself is very much a brute force character.

In general when The Hulk fights anyone his power level is typically kept fairly moderate to give the other character a chance. This is again why when he's really gotten going the "solution" has been to find ways to get rid of him/send him elsewhere.

That said I disagree with you, but I don't have a huge comic archive to provide counter examples, and if I did I'd probably make my point by showing various situations where entire teams have tried to fight Hulk and basically lost, and I'm pretty sure Thor has been there more than once where it wasn't 1 on 1, and characters equally powerful or superior (like Wonder Man) have also gotten involved. Thus I confess I might have to concede this specific point on technical merits, because unlike other arguements I find myself in, I can't claim that this is readily verifiable with some quick searches.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

As someone with zero familiarity with the Marvel universe, I thought the guy in the credits was the Red Skull. I did think it was odd that in the seventy years since he was sucked into an alternate dimension he became evil overlord of the Covenant just because he's really strong. Answer: it's not the Red Skull.

 

[gigastrike]

As someone with zero familiarity with the Marvel universe, I thought the guy in the credits was the Red Skull. I did think it was odd that in the seventy years since he was sucked into an alternate dimension he became evil overlord of the Covenant just because he's really strong. Answer: it's not the Red Skull.

I was about to post the exact same thing, and I still stand by my claim that it would make sense. Sure it seems weird that he would suddenly be in a position of absolute power, but I figured that they would use an established villain, and I think the writers could easily come up with a reason why being dematerialized by the Tessarect would cause him to be transported to deep space.

 

[romxxii]

I loved The Avengers, best damn superhero movie since The Dark Knight (I still enjoy the Dark Knight more).

The one, single, little thing that I didn't like in the movie, which overall didn't really affect my "critical opinion" was the Hulk.

Spoiler

I hated the way they just used him as a clumsy ape-like buffoon who's main purpose was to provide comic relief. I hated the way that after 2 movies and 8 years of David Banners internal and losing struggle to keep containment of the hulk, which I believe this is in part due to the consistant cast change, that completely out of left field, just shows up, gives a cheesy one-liner, and magicly can control his one mortal flaw that all Avengers have that makes them the amazing characters they are.

I don't know, it could have just been the damn annoying audience at the theatre that would not shut up about a damn thing and would laugh hystericly at everything that didn't have explosions, but that movie is damn-near perfect movie for me except for the happy ending (Iron Man should have died) and the way they depict the Hulk. Although, staying after the credits and seeing Thanos I understand why they needed a happy ending, but I really do hope that in the sequel they take advantage of a more dramatic and tragic story.

Are you kidding? That bit was the best part of the movie. Like I've always said:

Spoiler

This incarnation of the Hulk -- just like the comics version -- is Banner's id, unleashed. He is, in effect, acting on Banner's whims without forethought, just like a guy who's had way too many shots of tequila. Be honest here: if you got so drunk you thought you were an eight-foot tall invulnerable engine of destruction, wouldn't you do exactly what the Hulk does?

As for his allegedly unexplained ability to control Hulk, that was answered, If you were paying attention. You might've noticed that Banner's entire subplot revolved around him having a secret way of controlling the Hulk. In fact, everyone was trying to figure out exactly what he was doing to stay in control. The reveal at the end shows that he was suppressing the Hulk by embracing the fact that he has deep-seated anger issues. Banner's earlier conversations with both Tony and the funny security guard then cement the idea that (a) the Hulk can be a force for good, and more importantly, (b)something that Banner can control even in full Hulkout mode.