What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?

[Erttheking]

Snip

You mean the one that was formed by former prostitutes that normally had nothing to do with gaming? Also it was a petition. If you choose to not to follow a petition the people who petitioned it can do anything. And I admit to not knowing about the Kotaku articles but I do have to say, they wrote articles about it, so what? They said bad things about it? People say bad things about every game ever made, including attempted boycotts. These things happen, and if developers ignore them they usually go away. I don't really consider them to be a big deal. I mean, what's the solution? Say people shouldn't be allowed to say when they think something is sexist? Say boycotts can't be organized?

That's a whole other can of worms that contains questions about machine sentience that we are nowhere near ready to answer

 

[infohippie]

Snip

You mean the one that was formed by former prostitutes that normally had nothing to do with gaming? Also it was a petition. If you choose to not to follow a petition the people who petitioned it can do anything. And I admit to not knowing about the Kotaku articles but I do have to say, they wrote articles about it, so what? They said bad things about it? People say bad things about every game ever made, including attempted boycotts. These things happen, and if developers ignore them they usually go away. I don't really consider them to be a big deal. I mean, what's the solution? Say people shouldn't be allowed to say when they think something is sexist? Say boycotts can't be organized?

People can say bad things, sure, but when an influential site like Kotaku says bad things that has a direct influence on sales. I'm not sure what the solution is - apart from people not being so reactionary and ready to point to everything in popular culture as a bad influence on their precious little Farquhar or the reason why women need ever more protections - but that's getting further and further away from my original point which was to say that there IS a demand for (good) games like this, in contradiction of what a number of posters here were saying.

That's a whole other can of worms that contains questions about machine sentience that we are nowhere near ready to answer

This isn't even about machine sentience, these numpties are saying that something little more than a very sophisticated fleshlight is inherently bad because there are boobies that men can pose and play with at will. Yes, I've read their articles and that's what the thrust of their argument boils down to. It's the same reasoning as that video essay which concluded that Hatsune Miku was "problematic" because she could be posed sexily or used in other sexual content "without having a say in it". The anti-sexbot group actually compared these robots to sexual slavery. Insanity.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Wait, we're considering Kotaku influential now? Also I feel like saying they have a major impact is stretching it. I feel like their regular readers weren't really on board with buying Huniepop. Ok, people don't point to every piece of culture as having a bad influence, lets not fall victim to hyperbole here. As for their being a demand, maybe. I still question how much of it is a demand out of spite.

Bleh. I'll consider it something to worry about when they actually accomplish something.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

...because they're typically shit games that rarely meet the West's demand for profit? Seriously, that shit is as niche as niche can be and plagued by Devs throwing out half-arsed work because 'T&A is enough, I guess', that's not in any way, shape or form appealing to an industry that considers 5 million units sold a 'failure'.

 

[infohippie]

Snip

Wait, we're considering Kotaku influential now? Also I feel like saying they have a major impact is stretching it. I feel like their regular readers weren't really on board with buying Huniepop. Ok, people don't point to every piece of culture as having a bad influence, lets not fall victim to hyperbole here. As for their being a demand, maybe. I still question how much of it is a demand out of spite.

Bleh. I'll consider it something to worry about when they actually accomplish something.

I really can't see more than a tiny fraction of demand being from spite. People generally can't keep that kind of thing up. I know I certainly haven't played through thousands of hours of visual novels out of spite, nor did I hate-fap to 3D Custom Maid.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Wait, we're considering Kotaku influential now? Also I feel like saying they have a major impact is stretching it. I feel like their regular readers weren't really on board with buying Huniepop. Ok, people don't point to every piece of culture as having a bad influence, lets not fall victim to hyperbole here. As for their being a demand, maybe. I still question how much of it is a demand out of spite.

Bleh. I'll consider it something to worry about when they actually accomplish something.

I really can't see more than a tiny fraction of demand being from spite. People generally can't keep that kind of thing up. I know I certainly haven't played through thousands of hours of visual novels out of spite, nor did I hate-fap to 3D Custom Maid.

Maybe. Though I have to question what exactly the numbers. As well as how many are needed to make in profitable.

 

[crimsonspear4D]

Forgive me if this sounds naively pragmatic, but to make a game as shamelessy male pandering and exploitative as the DoA franchise has gotten lately, they might as well make a decent soft/hardcore porn game. I mean... I'd have more respect for a KT and TN if it was just out-and-out porn at this point rather than another "mediocre" fighting game with the characters watered down to just bland stumps just so you could get all the female characters and put them string bikinis and maid outfits or something.

I'd fully support a game built on virtual cheesecake, but they'd have to do more than just stand in front of the camera and pose "suggestively" for 60+ hours and have $100+ or dlc costumes, and have some type of gameplay and story that's AT LEAST entertaining and/or engaging.

For my opinion about Japan, I don't know about their cultural or societal stance on sexuality, but I do know that they have FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR weirder tastes in their porn media that I can't even believe gets published. I think because the overwhelming, or probably sole, audience for this are single and unfulfillingly married men and they'll pay out of the bank for their "tastes" that anything they make is at least going make some money back.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Our market for porn games won't pay out the ass for it, Japan's will. Proportionate to population they may be fairly similar though. Japan is not the land of absurd perverts people seem to think it is, and pornography is looked at basically as shamefully there as it is in the west.

 

[Gamerpalooza]

My only question is why Nintendo doesn't make a smash or fire emblem version, why capcom doesn't have their own capcom, snk does a King of Fighters version, who ever owns mortal kombat, but the one I'd be the most interested in would be a tales of series and a final fantasy one.

Especially when some of these would have way better mini-games to have.

Test your might
Scrap someone's car
Arenas
Chocobo Racing
Triple Triad
etc

So much untapped potential here. Though I think the process is restricted to thinking it's just a volleyball games with the focus being bikinis.

 

[Lunar Templar]

A history of religious prudery, for starters.

while you COULD say something like this is the reason, it's not.

If I had to guess, because it doesn't sell. While the games generate controversy and discussion, they don't make money.

This is.

Why do you think they don't sell.

Because they are terrible games, soft core porn, for voyeurs basically, and that doesn't sell games, cause, ya know, people who buy games tend to want good game play to go along with it. Which tends to be why the DOA fighters don't do well ether, they just aren't good fighters.

so that 'puritan' malarkey doesn't really hold up, cause if they where good games, they would sell far better then they do, but they aren't so they don't.

 

[Belaam]

Pretty much the same reason good horror games are hard to find. The audience is too small to invest in making a good enough game to make them happy.

I'd actually go the opposite route on all the people saying it's the fault of Western prudes. Have you seen Japanese porn? If all I could get was some heavily pixelated grinding filmed on someone's cell phone, I'd probably find DOA kinda hot. But outside of censored countries, you can just watch porn or go have actual sex.

But the number of Westerners with no access to sex or porn who would really love a DOA game is close enough to zero that western game companies might as well just mail thpse people who want one $20 for a lap dance instead. They'd lose less money that way.

 

[infohippie]

Different culture.

Don't think we do not have games featuring skimpy sexy babes with big boobs.
We just have a very different way to do it.

That's all.

Unfortunately, the way the west does it is to expect the boobs to hold up the game all by themselves. Doesn't matter how many boobs your game has in it, it needs story, character design, and gameplay. Sadly, those three elements are often skimped on badly.

 

[DOOM GUY]

I can think of a few reasons... they're not good reasons, mind you.

Hell, I'd buy it though.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Snip

We're not into the same thing as the Japanese, if you call that a sexual hang up I guess that would stop sales.

*sigh*

You really have to make this about Japan vs West when that is totally irrelevant to the point?

Fine. HuniePop. Stick HuniePop in there instead of Nekopara. Or HunieCam. Neither were made in Japan as far as I'm aware. Same question. I'd lay money on it being someone buying HuniePop getting a weird look rather than Doom.

Granted people do get weird looks for buying stuff like that so you have a point there...but with the growing digital market I feel like that would really be a huge problem. People who want crazy porn get crazy porn and aren't stopped just because of a few awkward looks.

Except this here is the whole point. Its not about people being able to buy these things on the sly. Its about mainstream acceptance. I can go to a supermarket right now and buy any number of unbelievably violent films or games; but anything with titillation is derided.

I'm directly comparing the western attitude to games primarily containing extreme violence to the western attitude to games containing things that are 'a bit rude'; not even extreme pornographic things...just titillation. It is, frankly, very weird.

Also let's be frank. Japan is prudish too. If it wasn't, that woman who made a canoe in the shape of her vagina wouldn't have gotten arrested.

Japan has some of the most confusing attitudes towards sex and sexuality in the world, honestly. I think partially because of the massive clash with American culture after WW2.

I'd hesitate to try to compare because frankly its so inconsistent. In some ways its more open and in others it is most definitely not. So I'm not sure why you're trying to argue about this except to try to make it about Japan vs West...which misses the point I was making. :-\



Also I also agree with the above points about laziness in actually developing these things. There's an overwhelming tendency for developers who DO put this stuff in their games to actually forget about the entire rest of the game. Like story. Or gameplay. Or whatever.

Though in fairness gameplay and story for romance stuff can be very difficult to do. Which is why Visual Novels tend to do romance stories way better than more interactive games. But it can be done, with effort.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Prudishness? If we're understanding Western as "north american" then that's possibly a big reason... north america really has its knickers in a knot about sexuality (though Ireleand and the UK aren't far off that either, but our games industry is significantly smaller). The major publishers won't touch anything sexual unless it's done "tastefully" (read: boring dry humping as part of romantic sub plots).

Lack of demand? Pornography is literally in our pockets these days and every fetish is catered for with a few swipes and presses. It's largely free as well, oft to the detriment of the porn industry. A premium priced game that only goes as far as skimpy bikinis caters for an extremely small demographic and the people willing to pay that premium are fewer still.

Budgets? Big publishers are stuck in the mindset of making big games and nobody is going to throw millions of dollars at fucking "Titty Quest". Pornography in general is cheap to make, but games generally aren't... even indie games are more expensive then porn shoots.

Personally I'd actually like some sexually themed games, not just games with sex in them. I'd be down for an Erotically themed RPG (that isn't some shitty hentai jrpg) or point'n'click adventure game (not leisure suit larry).

Different culture.

Don't think we do not have games featuring skimpy sexy babes with big boobs.
We just have a very different way to do it.

That's all.

Unfortunately, the way the west does it is to expect the boobs to hold up the game all by themselves. Doesn't matter how many boobs your game has in it, it needs story, character design, and gameplay. Sadly, those three elements are often skimped on badly.

I'm confused. In general the use of boobs in western games is purely a lazy aesthetic design, true... but they are usually inconsequential to the rest of the game (beyond possibly making no sense thematically). In fact, I actually can't think of any games outside of Leisure Suit Larry that has tits as a focus at all, and those games are largely played for laughs as the sexual payoff is tepid at best.

I read this as you saying that eastern developers make good titty games that don't rely on the sex appeal?

 

[Don Incognito]

"What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?"

Good taste.

 

[Avnger]

*sigh*

You really have to make this about Japan vs West when that is totally irrelevant to the point?

Fine. HuniePop. Stick HuniePop in there instead of Nekopara. Or HunieCam. Neither were made in Japan as far as I'm aware. Same question. I'd lay money on it being someone buying HuniePop getting a weird look rather than Doom.

@errtheking was responding to the number of posts that had already made it 'Japan vs the West.' There's at least 4-5 posts above that blame the whole lack of T&A games on the West's prudishness (which is a rather colored view ignoring many parts of Japanese society). It had already been made into East vs West =/

 

[infohippie]

Unfortunately, the way the west does it is to expect the boobs to hold up the game all by themselves. Doesn't matter how many boobs your game has in it, it needs story, character design, and gameplay. Sadly, those three elements are often skimped on badly.

I'm confused. In general the use of boobs in western games is purely a lazy aesthetic design, true... but they are usually inconsequential to the rest of the game (beyond possibly making no sense thematically). In fact, I actually can't think of any games outside of Leisure Suit Larry that has tits as a focus at all, and those games are largely played for laughs as the sexual payoff is tepid at best.

I read this as you saying that eastern developers make good titty games that don't rely on the sex appeal?

More that they don't rely JUST on sex appeal. Usually they're big on story and character, and sex is something that happens as part of the story. Often they try to draw some emotional involvement from the player to give the sex scenes context and meaning.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

....Uh. Is saying that different cultures have different tastes making things West vs East? And people seem more than happy to jump on how "Oh all Americ-I mean westerners are prudes" After that is me saying "We have different tastes" really that far out there?

Ok then, Huniepop was made in the west and sold well in the west. As far as I'm concerned, that's evidence that these games can sell well in the west and the Japanese industry industry capitalizing on it. Game companies being stupid and refusing to expand their audience. It's a global thing.

Like I said before, Japan has this problem too. Let's not act like westerners just need to get with the times. I agree with you that it needs to change, but I don't like the implication that it's just us.

See above. And if people want this to change, deciding to not export isn't going to solve a thing.

Maybe. I'm not educated enough on it to comment on its roots.

Like I said, 1. I haven't, I'm just pointing out that we're not so different and 2. Because people have been so gleeful to say "Oh look at Amer-westeners and what prudes they are." People tend to over romanticize Japan around here when comparing to the west, ESPECIALLY to America and I'm a little tired of it when they're not much better than we are.

I agree with you on the rest though.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Because they are niche here. They are also the product of a bygone era, where titillation was rare and hard to find, so hormone filled teenagers had to get it from anywhere, like renting Heavy Metal, pirating Playboy, playing Leisure Suit Larry or sharing your older brother Penthouse collection.

With Internet at our disposal, there is erotica everywhere. Even youtube has adult-like content that can be accessed with a 18+ years account... For the Internet savvy newer generations, it is harder to miss than to find, so the idea of companies investing several thousands or millions of dollars to provide that content is dumb business decisions.

Best post so far.

The absence of games like that aren't because of some SJW conspiracy or right wing prudishness, it's simple supply and demand that's made it niche. Why pay AAA prices for a game featuring DOA spank material when far more explicit stuff is just a Deviantart or Gelbooru search away?