What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?

[Dr. Crawver]

snip

I won't. I was answering to a different person. The question I was answering is "why do people treat it as a fact?".
And the answer was: "Because looks like the most probable explanation".
Most of the fencing you do is kind of irrelevant to it.

I'll just follow it on from here. Honestly all the questions you were given weren't totally dissimilar to any questions I would have had. You keep saying it looks like the most probably explanation, but you still give no reason as to why. You've been presented with sales figures, actual data, and highlighted that the publishers we're talking about don't get out of bed for less than 3 millions sales. Why do you think that some people complaining that they don't like tits is the explanation? Especially when you can't provide an example.

 

[felbot]

I blame the prudes like everyone else does, honestly I think its pretty weird that you can show a guy getting his head torn off and people will be more offended by the girl with the big tits.

both should be allowed dammit! its not wrong to want a game with big tits and asses and plenty of gore!

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Because if you want porn, YOU WATCH PORN.

Games are not porn. Or movies.

Stop trying to make games a pornographic media.

Who are you to make that call? And you are way too late on that front. Pornographic video games have almost as long a history as video games themselves.

Also, games and movies are mediums, while pornography is a genre.

Quite right, but it still leads into the point; if we want our T&A in games, there's LOADS of gaming smut out there that's, if not free, then at something cheaper than a triple A price and requiring massive grinding to see the full money shots.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Yeah but do those come from people/characters you like and bring out a sense of immersion in the world they live in?

No. But neither does a ridiculous series of mini games requiring massive grinding to get a taste of what you want.

Yes, there's a case to be made for teasing. Yes, there's definitely a case to be made for titillation.

Thing is, does a Victoria Secret catalog require you to burn multiple hours on the first 10 pages to get to the REALLY good and skimpy material being modeled on the other 20?

Does Hooters require to purchase at least 10 orders of wings before you get the really hot girls serving you?

And do they all do this AFTER taking a whopping great amount of cash for it? (I'd be hard pressed to spend 60 bucks at a Hooters, m'self).

The DOAX formula is a niche one, and an incredibly niche one at that. Nothing wrong with it if you really like that specific niche, but let's face it, it's not going to be near as popular as you want it to be. Blatant porn is too readily availible, AND easier titillation can be had.

 

[Davroth]

Because if you want porn, YOU WATCH PORN.

Games are not porn. Or movies.

Stop trying to make games a pornographic media.

Who are you to make that call? And you are way too late on that front. Pornographic video games have almost as long a history as video games themselves.

Also, games and movies are mediums, while pornography is a genre.

Quite right, but it still leads into the point; if we want our T&A in games, there's LOADS of gaming smut out there that's, if not free, then at something cheaper than a triple A price and requiring massive grinding to see the full money shots.

Mmmm, have you actually ever played a DOAX game? Calling it pornographic is reallllllly stretching it. What I'm trying to say is there is no money shots of any kind.

But the answer really is that there is not as much of a market for it in the west, since us long-nosed devils are for the most part pretty repressed sexually. Thank you, Christianity. I'm not all too invested in it either way, though, since those kinds of games don't appeal to me. I just find sweeping statements like those I initially replied to kind of gross.

 

[EternallyBored]

Mmmm, have you actually ever played a DOAX game? Calling it pornographic is reallllllly stretching it. What I'm trying to say is there is no money shots of any kind.

But the answer really is that there is not as much of a market for it in the west, since us long-nosed devils are for the most part pretty repressed sexually. Thank you, Christianity. I'm not all too invested in it either way, though, since those kinds of games don't appeal to me. I just find sweeping statements like those I initially replied to kind of gross.

Honestly, I've always found Japan to be more on the repressed side, publicly at least, especially public displays like clothes and displays of affection. Although, Japanese strip clubs are pretty wild, very explicit, that might just be Tokyo though.

Generally, I think the reason things like DOAX don't appeal as much to Westerners is that the teasing low end stuff is generally disregarded in favor of just straight up porn, or at least soft core toplessness. The more open attitude towards publicly sexual displays and dress in the West directly competes with at least some of the audience that games like DOAX draw in Japan. Westerners can step outside in most warmer areas and get the same effect from real women that you can get from the kind of fanservice DOAX provides, sans the groping of course.

Its more a cultural attraction/aversion to teasing than anything to do with prudishness, Western audiences seem to want to just cut to the chase when it comes to fiction, while Japanese audiences are more open to teasing without anything actually happening. Varies by region of course, someone in Shibuya ward in Tokyo, or Castro district in San Francisco is obviously going to be different than the general audience living in a rural area.

 

[Shiver Me Tits]

I'll just follow it on from here. Honestly all the questions you were given weren't totally dissimilar to any questions I would have had. You keep saying it looks like the most probably explanation, but you still give no reason as to why. You've been presented with sales figures, actual data, and highlighted that the publishers we're talking about don't get out of bed for less than 3 millions sales. Why do you think that some people complaining that they don't like tits is the explanation? Especially when you can't provide an example.

Such an example cannot exist. You can't really pick up a hare that wasn't born because wolves ate his parents and file it as a proof. But the presence of wolves and the lack of hares fit together quite nicely and explain the world well. And that's exactly what's required of a theory. To explain the world well, that is. Now you might go on and try to disprove it, but so far no one really did.

Also, the data does not mean jack, there's too little of it and I'd rather trust that one nutaku guy, who said that there is a demand for such games and backed it with the data too, mind you.

"The data does not mean jack"

Spoken like someone who absolutely doesn't like what the data is telling them, but not someone to be taken seriously in a debate wherein data is probably the only significant factor to be discussed. The bottom line data of shit sales isn't hard to figure out, it matches the anecdotal reaction you see in this thread, and frankly it matches the decision by all involved not to bother too much with it.

It's the equivalent of someone in Japan lamenting that they don't get "SkineMax", and blaming it on Japan's various legal and social hangups. I feel for you, but I don't really care and since you aren't going to just say, "I hate that more people don't like what I like..."

Mmmm, have you actually ever played a DOAX game? Calling it pornographic is reallllllly stretching it. What I'm trying to say is there is no money shots of any kind.

But the answer really is that there is not as much of a market for it in the west, since us long-nosed devils are for the most part pretty repressed sexually. Thank you, Christianity. I'm not all too invested in it either way, though, since those kinds of games don't appeal to me. I just find sweeping statements like those I initially replied to kind of gross.

Honestly, I've always found Japan to be more on the repressed side, publicly at least, especially public displays like clothes and displays of affection. Although, Japanese strip clubs are pretty wild, very explicit, that might just be Tokyo though.

It is the home of a 15 year old boys literally losing the ability to speak at the sight of a classmate's panties, being a nearly ubiquitous trope. Where the idea of "sharing a kiss" from sharing a drink is again, a running trope. Realistically it's also still a country wherein your potentially traditional parents, grandparents, and so on have really seriously expectations of you, and you don't want to be seen as coming up short.

The other thing that I think a lot of people in love with the idea of Japan miss, is that the concept of "permitted" is broad, because the built in social and economic consequences rarely require a legal framework. To be in serious trouble for your average Japanese person would be something to be avoided at all costs. Likewise, to be seen as strange or a pervert would instantly downgrade your social standing. How that gets expressed though is mostly thought, "Well it's just going to be that way" or "Let him be". That's not an endorsement, but they've basically written you off so they're done. That's not the same as embracing something.

Finally, and most of all, people just miss the, "I'm not seeing/hearing anything beyond by personal space" factor in public settings. It's a culture with a long history of living packed like sardines, and the way the culture works reflects that. "None of my business" is a big fucking deal in Japan, for better or worse, it's why a lot of domestic abuse and similar issues struggle to be addressed regardless of the laws. It's also a country in which outward appearances matter so much, that families and friends often cover for each other to avoid lasting shame, or even to avoid being associated at all with it.

It's not simple, it's not a matter of "Wide open arms and no prudishness" just as you said.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Mmmm, have you actually ever played a DOAX game?

The first one.

Calling it pornographic is reallllllly stretching it. What I'm trying to say is there is no money shots of any kind.

I know it's not. But it's purpose, titillation, is also much easier and cheaper to attain.

 

[felbot]

If I had to guess, because it doesn't sell. While the games generate controversy and discussion, they don't make money.

funny you say that because DOAX3 sold extremely well according to play-asia.

http://www.dualshockers.com/2016/03/29/ps4ps-vita-exclusive-dead-or-alive-xtreme-3-breaks-sales-record-at-play-asia/
http://operationrainfall.com/2016/03/29/play-asia-sales-record-broken-new-dead-alive/

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Yeah but do those come from people/characters you like and bring out a sense of immersion in the world they live in?

No. But neither does a ridiculous series of mini games requiring massive grinding to get a taste of what you want.

Yes, there's a case to be made for teasing. Yes, there's definitely a case to be made for titillation.

Thing is, does a Victoria Secret catalog require you to burn multiple hours on the first 10 pages to get to the REALLY good and skimpy material being modeled on the other 20?

Does Hooters require to purchase at least 10 orders of wings before you get the really hot girls serving you?

And do they all do this AFTER taking a whopping great amount of cash for it? (I'd be hard pressed to spend 60 bucks at a Hooters, m'self).

The DOAX formula is a niche one, and an incredibly niche one at that. Nothing wrong with it if you really like that specific niche, but let's face it, it's not going to be near as popular as you want it to be. Blatant porn is too readily availible, AND easier titillation can be had.

The thing is those 10 hours are what builds the immersion talked about above, so it isn't a waste. DoAX is a pretty mediocre example at that thing btw, I think it doesn't do the style of thing as must justice. Something like the Ar Tonelico series of games have honed this type of titilation for chars you care about coupled with an actually good game too so I'd use them as an example instead.

 

[Andy Shandy]

If I had to guess, because it doesn't sell. While the games generate controversy and discussion, they don't make money.

funny you say that because DOAX3 sold extremely well according to play-asia.

http://www.dualshockers.com/2016/03/29/ps4ps-vita-exclusive-dead-or-alive-xtreme-3-breaks-sales-record-at-play-asia/
http://operationrainfall.com/2016/03/29/play-asia-sales-record-broken-new-dead-alive/

Oh I have no doubt broke Play-Asia's records, but as a seller of niche products, the record won't have been huge previous to DOAX3.
This article from Destructoid [https://www.destructoid.com/dead-or-alive-xtreme-3-sold-well-outside-japan-358288.phtml], which sources figures from Tecmo Koei, has DOAX3 selling ~190k, about 60k less than DOAX2. So while it did good business for a store, it is not particularly good business for the developer.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

I'll just follow it on from here. Honestly all the questions you were given weren't totally dissimilar to any questions I would have had. You keep saying it looks like the most probably explanation, but you still give no reason as to why. You've been presented with sales figures, actual data, and highlighted that the publishers we're talking about don't get out of bed for less than 3 millions sales. Why do you think that some people complaining that they don't like tits is the explanation? Especially when you can't provide an example.

Such an example cannot exist. You can't really pick up a hare that wasn't born because wolves ate his parents and file it as a proof. But the presence of wolves and the lack of hares fit together quite nicely and explain the world well. And that's exactly what's required of a theory. To explain the world well, that is. Now you might go on and try to disprove it, but so far no one really did.

Also, the data does not mean jack, there's too little of it and I'd rather trust that one nutaku guy, who said that there is a demand for such games and backed it with the data too, mind you.

No, you don't get to claim that. Such example cannot exist? Bullshit. If this is really such an issue, you can be dam sure that there will be devs, or ex-devs willing to talk about it. You have plenty who, at the very least when they're out the door, talk about corporate pressures put on them by the publishers, plenty spoke out against, as well as some in favour of, gamergate (which I'm sure we all remember being a pretty controversial and polarizing topic). We've had devs talk about being sent death-threats for a numerous number of different things (and still go through with what they were doing mind you). Devs regularly talk about these sorts of things if they're an issue to them. Why the hell would this be the one they are unwilling to say a word about?

This is why I say give me an example. And why I will simply ignore you if you opt for the "nah, there isn't an example. But it's happening, for real." And burden of proof does not require me to disprove it. As you physically cannot prove a negative (in this case me trying to say that no dev has ever been effected by it). But the burden of proof lies with you to actually try and back up your claim.

And again, going to the "it's all around" argument is banal as well. It's like when a religious person, when asked to prove god, says "look around". If you can't realize that you're seeing what you want to see to fit into your already predetermined biases, then you lack self awareness. Because everyone naturally does that. I do it, you do it. Everyone in this thread does it. It's human nature. But that's why I ask for examples. It sticks a flag down, it allows you to actually claim your viewpoint has something behind it.

But I doubt this'll get anything more out of you. I've tried, others have tried. You clearly believe you're right, for some reason (and I honestly don't know why. You say the wolves are out there, but I don't even know exactly what you're referring to. Tumblr? As if any major dev studio would care), so congrats on that. But at least admit you don't actually have any basis other than a gut feeling on your side.

 

[Gengisgame]

Yeah but do those come from people/characters you like and bring out a sense of immersion in the world they live in?

No. But neither does a ridiculous series of mini games requiring massive grinding to get a taste of what you want.

Yes, there's a case to be made for teasing. Yes, there's definitely a case to be made for titillation.

Thing is, does a Victoria Secret catalog require you to burn multiple hours on the first 10 pages to get to the REALLY good and skimpy material being modeled on the other 20?

Does Hooters require to purchase at least 10 orders of wings before you get the really hot girls serving you?

And do they all do this AFTER taking a whopping great amount of cash for it? (I'd be hard pressed to spend 60 bucks at a Hooters, m'self).

The DOAX formula is a niche one, and an incredibly niche one at that. Nothing wrong with it if you really like that specific niche, but let's face it, it's not going to be near as popular as you want it to be. Blatant porn is too readily availible, AND easier titillation can be had.

That's not how any of this works. Your arguing from the point of someone who doesn't want it and in doing so failing to understand how titillation is just like violence, overcoming the challenge or getting some lore in that they provide some form of gratification to someone.

All these things can happen immediately, can be placed in various parts of the game, or require grinding which us why none of your examples apply.

Take Tomb Raider, graphics aside the character was designed and marketed as a sex symbol, titillation from the get-go, no grinding. Just because it doesn't require any of the examples you gave does not change the intent.

But we have changed, the modern makers of Tomb Raider keep saying they want to get away from the idea of her being a sexy symbol (the thing that defined the character).

Now I just pointed out that being a sex symbol defined a character, you would need to living under a rock to think that people aren't being conditioned into seeing that as a negative and they wouldn't get a strong reaction reading that. How many times have you heard the "but there's more to her than that" BS which shows how much people have been conditioned, I'm sure there but you shouldn't need to point that out in defense.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Take Tomb Raider, graphics aside the character was designed and marketed as a sex symbol, titillation from the get-go, no grinding. Just because it doesn't require any of the examples you gave does not change the intent.

Never said it did. It's an example of easier available titillation I was talking about.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

No, you don't get to claim that. Such example cannot exist? Bullshit. If this is really such an issue, you can be dam sure that there will be devs, or ex-devs willing to talk about it. You have plenty who, at the very least when they're out the door, talk about corporate pressures put on them by the publishers, plenty spoke out against, as well as some in favour of, gamergate (which I'm sure we all remember being a pretty controversial and polarizing topic). We've had devs talk about being sent death-threats for a numerous number of different things (and still go through with what they were doing mind you). Devs regularly talk about these sorts of things if they're an issue to them. Why the hell would this be the one they are unwilling to say a word about?

This is why I say give me an example. And why I will simply ignore you if you opt for the "nah, there isn't an example. But it's happening, for real." And burden of proof does not require me to disprove it. As you physically cannot prove a negative (in this case me trying to say that no dev has ever been effected by it). But the burden of proof lies with you to actually try and back up your claim.

And again, going to the "it's all around" argument is banal as well. It's like when a religious person, when asked to prove god, says "look around". If you can't realize that you're seeing what you want to see to fit into your already predetermined biases, then you lack self awareness. Because everyone naturally does that. I do it, you do it. Everyone in this thread does it. It's human nature. But that's why I ask for examples. It sticks a flag down, it allows you to actually claim your viewpoint has something behind it.

But I doubt this'll get anything more out of you. I've tried, others have tried. You clearly believe you're right, for some reason (and I honestly don't know why. You say the wolves are out there, but I don't even know exactly what you're referring to. Tumblr? As if any major dev studio would care), so congrats on that. But at least admit you don't actually have any basis other than a gut feeling on your side.

There are tons of examples, it's just you refuse to see those and need some very fancy rare and specific one. Find it yourself.
And since you can't just look around on your own have this fine link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFItIX8SIs4zqhJCHpbeV1A/videos
Should be enough.

1) All these games listed came out. This is not an example for your point, it's a different point.
2) I've looked through the first page, and fuck no. This isn't censorship. Some of it is localisation issues, some of it are the company did it on their own terms (I mean seriously, are we still touting the R.Mika butt slap not being center screen as censorship? Really?)
3) I'm really not going to watch every video, so unless there's one or two specific ones that actually do argue your point (that there are games that would have been made if it wasn't for people decrying it due to prudishness), you're going to need to pick them out, because expecting someone to go through a channels catalogue is unreasonable and actually a pretty shitty discussion technique.
4) Also good job at addressing the other points I made. Like who are meant to be these people blocking the way anyway?

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

There are tons of examples, it's just you refuse to see those and need some very fancy rare and specific one. Find it yourself.
And since you can't just look around on your own have this fine link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFItIX8SIs4zqhJCHpbeV1A/videos
Should be enough.

Very fascinating channel there, actually. Had no idea that Ace Combat 4 had cuts and the old Final Fight 1 edits were something that irked me even back in the day. Also didn't know my favorite arcade cabinet, Crime Fighters had cut material either.