What's So Bad About Mark Millar?

Terminal Blue

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rob_simple said:
Sorry, but I have no experience or understanding of being stabbed either. My point stands.
Of course you do.

We could all be stabbed at any time. Most of us have no experience of the precise physical pain of being stabbed, so in that regard, yes, most of us are merely guessing what being stabbed actually feels like, but we can empathize with people who have been stabbed because we can imagine ourselves in that position. We can react to that experience with a kind of humanity, we can put ourselves in the position of the person being stabbed and think "ow, that would hurt!" Because, you know, most of us have had to think about it at one time or another.

Sometimes we might choose not to, sometimes stories are set up so that we're not meant to think too hard about the pain of people who have been stabbed, perhaps because we're watching an action movie in which half the characters are just obstacles to be blown away. However, that doesn't noticeably impact on our reaction to stabbing as a concept or the ability to empathize with victims. Note, for example, that the internet isn't full of people crying:

"We need more protection for people who get accused of stabbing!"
"You can't proove that anyone stabbed anyone else deliberately!"
"Stabbing someone shouldn't be such a big deal, it's just bad fighting etiquette!"
"Lol, well I certainly don't think it's my job not to carry a knife"
"People who get stabbed probably did something to provoke it."
"I lock my house when I go out, so it's only sensible that people should wear stab vests in the street at all times otherwise they're not taking precautions."
"Lol, [person] posted a blog post/youtube video/whatever about how people shouldn't have to worry about being stabbed. Let's send him/her lots of stabbing threats, and then post his/her address online and tell people to go stab him/her!"
"Anti-stabbing campaigners are devaluing the meaning of real stabbing."
"Stabbing statistics are totally inflated because the definition of stabbing is too broad, it should only count if you get stabbed by a stranger or with a certain degree of force because otherwise you can't tell"


For reasons which are actually kind of obvious, many men seem to have real trouble empathizing with anyone who has been raped. Furthermore, they seem to find it remarkably easy to project themselves into the position of the person who is actually doing the act, again, I suspect, for very obvious reasons.

There is an inadequate separation between the low-empathy rape-fantasies of some men, in which rape serves purely as either voyeurism, as code for humiliation, or as a cheap way of generating shock or motivation (particularly for the character who must defend or avenge "his" woman, as in this case) and popular attitudes, misconceptions and myths about rape which both facilitate it and make it very difficult to deal with when it does happen.
 

Lieju

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evilthecat said:
For reasons which are actually kind of obvious, many men seem to have real trouble empathizing with anyone who has been raped. Furthermore, they seem to find it remarkably easy to project themselves into the position of the person who is actually doing the act, again, I suspect, for very obvious reasons.

There is an inadequate separation between the low-empathy rape-fantasies of some men, in which rape serves purely as either voyeurism or as a cheap way of generating shock or motivation, particularly for the character who must defend "his" woman, and popular attitudes, misconceptions and myths about rape which both facilitate it and make it very difficult to deal with when it does happen.
There's not just the fact that there are women (and men) who have been raped, there's also the fact that a society teaches women to be afraid of being raped the way men aren't. (Obviously this depends on where you live)

I have been taught by my family and school to be wary of dangers, that I should not talk to people I don't know, that I should watch my drink so no-one slips anything there, that I should not go out after dark (and since I live in Finland this would mean not going out at all during the winter), that I shouldn't travel alone because rape, etc.

A man might fear getting beaten up or killed if they find themselves alone on a dark alley, but how likely it is they'll think 'I will get raped'?

Obviously, a writer can understand a subject without ever being in that position, though. But the problem is too often there is no attempt to understand the victim, but rather how it affects her boyfriend/husband/etc.
 

mrblakemiller

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Master of the Skies said:
Asita said:
Master of the Skies said:
mrblakemiller said:
What's funny is that people are talking about Mark Millar as a misogynist and an immature writer who loves violence too much. For example, apparently a girl is raped in Kick-Ass 2, and that makes Millar a misgynist. Take this quote:

Laura Hudson, the former editor-in-chief of the popular blog Comics Alliance and a senior editor at Wired, thought that scene was deplorable, but typical of Millar. ?There's one and only one reason that happens, and it's to piss off the male character,? she said. ?It's using a trauma you don't understand in a way whose implications you can't understand, and then talking about it as though you're doing the same thing as having someone's head explode. You're not. Those two things are not equivalent, and if you don't understand, you shouldn't be writing rape scenes.?
Blatant selective reading if you get "A girl is raped so he's a misogynist" from that. It does *not* say that.
Definitely seems to be the case, but I can kinda see where he got that reading from, and it's a scarily simple inference. Basically it boils down to how you interpret this part of the quote: ?There's one and only one reason that happens, and it's to piss off the male character?. If you interpret that as "there's one and only one reason that [rape in fiction] happens, and it's to piss off the male character", then the quote reads as a blanket statement much like the OP seems to be interpreting it. If, however, you interpret it as "there's one and only one reason that [the rape in this scene] happens, and it's to piss off the male character", then it reads as a far more specific criticism focusing on Millar's ability to write such scenes. And I repeat, the latter seems the more likely interpretation.
Given the sentence right before I'm not seeing much reasonable grounds for the former interpretation, as the fact it just said she thought that scene was deplorable and typical of Millar kind of suggests the next part that starts with a quote from her is about that. You can't just ignore that previous sentence, it's part of the context.

Also given his record with reading the rest of it I'm pretty sure he's seeking the worst interpretation he can, whether consciously, or subconsciously merely due to his own biases.

Edit: And even if that was what it meant, that's a criticism of how rape is being handled in comics, not saying that a girl being raped at all makes him a misogynist. The complaint is clearly: "It's using a trauma you don't understand in a way whose implications you can't understand, and then talking about it as though you're doing the same thing as having someone's head explode."
Master of the Skies said:
Asita said:
Master of the Skies said:
mrblakemiller said:
What's funny is that people are talking about Mark Millar as a misogynist and an immature writer who loves violence too much. For example, apparently a girl is raped in Kick-Ass 2, and that makes Millar a misgynist. Take this quote:

Laura Hudson, the former editor-in-chief of the popular blog Comics Alliance and a senior editor at Wired, thought that scene was deplorable, but typical of Millar. ?There's one and only one reason that happens, and it's to piss off the male character,? she said. ?It's using a trauma you don't understand in a way whose implications you can't understand, and then talking about it as though you're doing the same thing as having someone's head explode. You're not. Those two things are not equivalent, and if you don't understand, you shouldn't be writing rape scenes.?
Blatant selective reading if you get "A girl is raped so he's a misogynist" from that. It does *not* say that.
Definitely seems to be the case, but I can kinda see where he got that reading from, and it's a scarily simple inference. Basically it boils down to how you interpret this part of the quote: ?There's one and only one reason that happens, and it's to piss off the male character?. If you interpret that as "there's one and only one reason that [rape in fiction] happens, and it's to piss off the male character", then the quote reads as a blanket statement much like the OP seems to be interpreting it. If, however, you interpret it as "there's one and only one reason that [the rape in this scene] happens, and it's to piss off the male character", then it reads as a far more specific criticism focusing on Millar's ability to write such scenes. And I repeat, the latter seems the more likely interpretation.
Given the sentence right before I'm not seeing much reasonable grounds for the former interpretation, as the fact it just said she thought that scene was deplorable and typical of Millar kind of suggests the next part that starts with a quote from her is about that. You can't just ignore that previous sentence, it's part of the context.

Also given his record with reading the rest of it I'm pretty sure he's seeking the worst interpretation he can, whether consciously, or subconsciously merely due to his own biases.

Edit: And even if that was what it meant, that's a criticism of how rape is being handled in comics, not saying that a girl being raped at all makes him a misogynist. The complaint is clearly: "It's using a trauma you don't understand in a way whose implications you can't understand, and then talking about it as though you're doing the same thing as having someone's head explode."
Yeah, I guess it doesn't outright say that she thinks Millar is a misogynist, you're right. On the other hand, I don't know how to possibly interpret her last two sentences as anything other than, "I'm a woman, so I definitely understand rape, and you wrote a rape scene, so you definitely don't." I just want to tell her, "Just because I don't share your sense of horror at rape (i.e. I don't think it's a narrative "bridge too far") doesn't mean I don't understand it."

I hate how often I see variations of a central idea, that being: "He writes about rape. He's terrible," with no explanation offered as to why rape should be off-limits while murder, genocide, torture, et al. apparently aren't. Either explain why rape should be treated differently (without using some stupid trick like, "If you have to ask, you shouldn't be writing about rape") or let people write it with impunity. Oh, and don't for a second think we'll consider ourselves beholden to your view of what's right or wrong, whether you explain it or not.

Basically, I can't figure out a way to think of this woman being SURE Millar doesn't understand rape without it being, "Because he's a man and thus he'll NEVER understand it." Otherwise, she's assuming to know a lot about how well-read and researched Millar is about it, and that seems much less likely.
 

mrblakemiller

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I guess I should have posted this earlier:

http://observationdeck.io9.com/mark-millar-and-todd-mcfarlane-ladies-comics-arent-f-1095912572

This was an editorial from which I took the Laura Hudson quote. I'm not sure from where it actually originated.
 

mrblakemiller

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Master of the Skies said:
mrblakemiller said:
Master of the Skies said:
Asita said:
Master of the Skies said:
mrblakemiller said:
What's funny is that people are talking about Mark Millar as a misogynist and an immature writer who loves violence too much. For example, apparently a girl is raped in Kick-Ass 2, and that makes Millar a misgynist. Take this quote:

Laura Hudson, the former editor-in-chief of the popular blog Comics Alliance and a senior editor at Wired, thought that scene was deplorable, but typical of Millar. ?There's one and only one reason that happens, and it's to piss off the male character,? she said. ?It's using a trauma you don't understand in a way whose implications you can't understand, and then talking about it as though you're doing the same thing as having someone's head explode. You're not. Those two things are not equivalent, and if you don't understand, you shouldn't be writing rape scenes.?
Blatant selective reading if you get "A girl is raped so he's a misogynist" from that. It does *not* say that.
Definitely seems to be the case, but I can kinda see where he got that reading from, and it's a scarily simple inference. Basically it boils down to how you interpret this part of the quote: ?There's one and only one reason that happens, and it's to piss off the male character?. If you interpret that as "there's one and only one reason that [rape in fiction] happens, and it's to piss off the male character", then the quote reads as a blanket statement much like the OP seems to be interpreting it. If, however, you interpret it as "there's one and only one reason that [the rape in this scene] happens, and it's to piss off the male character", then it reads as a far more specific criticism focusing on Millar's ability to write such scenes. And I repeat, the latter seems the more likely interpretation.
Given the sentence right before I'm not seeing much reasonable grounds for the former interpretation, as the fact it just said she thought that scene was deplorable and typical of Millar kind of suggests the next part that starts with a quote from her is about that. You can't just ignore that previous sentence, it's part of the context.

Also given his record with reading the rest of it I'm pretty sure he's seeking the worst interpretation he can, whether consciously, or subconsciously merely due to his own biases.

Edit: And even if that was what it meant, that's a criticism of how rape is being handled in comics, not saying that a girl being raped at all makes him a misogynist. The complaint is clearly: "It's using a trauma you don't understand in a way whose implications you can't understand, and then talking about it as though you're doing the same thing as having someone's head explode."
Yeah, I guess it doesn't outright say that she thinks Millar is a misogynist, you're right. On the other hand, I don't know how to possibly interpret her last two sentences as anything other than, "I'm a woman, so I definitely understand rape, and you wrote a rape scene, so you definitely don't." I just want to tell her, "Just because I don't share your sense of horror at rape (i.e. I don't think it's a narrative "bridge too far") doesn't mean I don't understand it."
I don't see how the hell you can justifiably insert "Because I'm a woman" in there. The only time she mentions gender is in regards to the male character. YOU are making it about her gender when she said nothing of it. You are making it about Millar's gender when she said nothing of it.

And you don't even get her position since it wasn't "No rape ever in a story" so to claim her position is thinking that using it as a "bridge too far" just shows you don't even know what you're talking about in regards to what she said.

I hate how often I see variations of a central idea, that being: "He writes about rape. He's terrible," with no explanation offered as to why rape should be off-limits while murder, genocide, torture, et al. apparently aren't. Either explain why rape should be treated differently (without using some stupid trick like, "If you have to ask, you shouldn't be writing about rape") or let people write it with impunity. Oh, and don't for a second think we'll consider ourselves beholden to your view of what's right or wrong, whether you explain it or not.
Except she didn't even say rape is off limits. She complained about the way he used it. This in fact implies she may very well think there's a better way to have it in a story.

And it's pretty ridiculous to demand she tell you things and then say you're not beholden to her. What, she's beholden to you?

Basically, I can't figure out a way to think of this woman being SURE Millar doesn't understand rape without it being, "Because he's a man and thus he'll NEVER understand it." Otherwise, she's assuming to know a lot about how well-read and researched Millar is about it, and that seems much less likely.
Orrrrrrrrrr the obvious is she's saying it because of the scene he used. Since that's, you know, that's what that part was talking about. And please, don't talk about assuming when you start making it about him being a man when she never said anything about that in the quote. You're spinning a total fantasy out of this. And making the ridiculously dishonest move of blowing up because she didn't treat this like some kind of argument where she has to provide all her reasoning to you. It's a fucking quote in an article, that's not the place to expect people to tell you all their reasoning. You don't just go and lie and say she made it about Millar being a man when she said nothing of it just because you don't know her reasoning.
Again, you're right. I'm inferring something she didn't say. But I have to, because she doesn't explain (1) Why Millar doesn't understand rape or (2) how she can know that he doesn't understand it. Since the article I read her quote in was all about men being bad at writing women-friendly comics, I inferred gender into it, which might have been wrong, but at least isn't nonsensical, since I've seen women saying men will never understand rape before.

I dislike being called insane, but you have been deftly attacking holes in my argument, so I'll ask: how do you fill in the blanks? Why do you think she feels so comfortable accusing Millar of not understanding rape, and why do you think she feels comfortable acting as the guardian of that knowledge?

"You used a rape scene that way; ergo you don't understand rape." Is that why you think she's coming down on him? That makes ZERO sense to me. I want to drill it in: "Just because a person doesn't react the way you do, isn't sickened by the same things you are, doesn't decide that something is too far like you would, doesn't have anything to do with understanding."
 

Paradoxrifts

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Colin Murray said:
OP, did you read the rape scene from kickass 2 that was mentioned? I have, and calling Millar a misogynist seems pretty inline with what I took away from what I'd read. I personally don't think a person could write something like that dispassionately.

For background, I really did like the original Kickass as well as the film (but not quite as much), but I don't think I'd ever buy another work of Millar's fiction knowingly again.
I fail to see how using rape as a plot device to establish the depravity of the antagonist proves that the writer hates women. I think that it is important to juxtapose the evil behaviour that Chris Genovese exhibits while he has power, and how he acts after it has been stripped from him, and he has been rendered helpless. In the end the self-styled 'mother fucker' is nothing more than particularly cruel, vicious and ultimately quite pathetic bully. This character arc can then be compared to that of Dave Lizewski. Who in the end of the second series comes precariously close to crossing over the moral event horizon that he himself has set, and when given the power over life and death comes to realise at least in part the gravity and seriousness of his actions.

But saying that, I'm waiting for a complete volume of series 3 be released. So I can't comment on anything that going on past the end of series 2.
 

Boris Goodenough

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evilthecat said:
We could all be stabbed at any time. Most of us have no experience of the precise physical pain of being stabbed, so in that regard, yes, most of us are merely guessing what being stabbed actually feels like, but we can empathize with people who have been stabbed because we can imagine ourselves in that position. We can react to that experience with a kind of humanity, we can put ourselves in the position of the person being stabbed and think "ow, that would hurt!" Because, you know, most of us have had to think about it at one time or another.
It feels like a regular punch and then you bleed.
It doesn't hurt (until later when you are healing).
 

GloatingSwine

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Mark Millar isn't as funny when he's being shocking as Garth Ennis or Warren Ellis, nor is he as clever when he's being clever as Grant Morrison.

He clearly wants to be the lovechild of those three authors, but he isn't.
 

Drauger

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Sorry but isn't doing things like murder and rape, supposed to be the things a "villain" do?. The rape in Kick ass has a motive, the same as kickass dad murder and torture and other things that happen in the comic( don't quite remember) to get revenge from Kick Ass, if I'm not wrong before the rape scene the ************ shots several kids just cause they were THERE, that's the thing villain do.

Giving an example from other books, the Joker kills Jason Tod with a baseball just to piss Batman.....
Wasn't Alexandra DeWitt Brutally murder and the stuffed in a FREAKING FRIDGE just so Green Latern found her after their fight?...
Barbara Gordon was crippled because the Joker didn't found commissioner Gordon

1.They are comic book characters
2.These comic book chaacters are Villains
3.Don't expect everything to have a reason in comics cause, well comic books are weird.

I think people over analyzing things now a day.
 

Soundwave

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Paradoxrifts said:
I fail to see how using rape as a plot device to establish the depravity of the antagonist proves that the writer hates women. I think that it is important to juxtapose the evil behaviour that Chris Genovese exhibits while he has power, and how he acts after it has been stripped from him, and he has been rendered helpless. In the end the self-styled 'mother fucker' is nothing more than particularly cruel, vicious and ultimately quite pathetic bully. This character arc can then be compared to that of Dave Lizewski. Who in the end of the second series comes precariously close to crossing over the moral event horizon that he himself has set, and when given the power over life and death comes to realise at least in part the gravity and seriousness of his actions.

But saying that, I'm waiting for a complete volume of series 3 be released. So I can't comment on anything that going on past the end of series 2.
That was the impression that *I* got from reading the comic at the time. I also get a similar vibe from the works of frank miller. I'm not saying that the writer is *definitively* a misogynist, just that there's elements of misogyny in their works.

It's like saying something someone says comes across as racist, the person's intent may or may not be there, that's not for me to *know*, I can only give a reaction based on what I see or hear.

As other people have said, it's not Millar that's the problem, it's his writing. The things he portrays are meant to shock, and beyond that there really isn't much else. I for example, really got behind the first Kick Ass, because the relationship with Hit Girl and her father reminded me of how awful parents can be when they try to live through their children (through activities like sports or beauty pageants). I was able to look over the rest of the book's flaws, because of that. Kick Ass 2, on the other hand, had no such insight, was was essentially just a series of really unpleasant set pieces that turned my stomach, and put me off. And that's fine, really, it just means that I don't want to buy any more of his books, which is certainly within my right.
 

Harrowdown

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RhombusHatesYou said:
My only issue with Millar is that he's a bit of a hack who puts shock value well above context. Essentially he tries to Out-Ennis Garth Ennis, except that Ennis has more talent and is much, much, MUCH less of a pretentious fuckhead about it all.
This, basically.
 

Terminal Blue

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Lieju said:
There's not just the fact that there are women (and men) who have been raped, there's also the fact that a society teaches women to be afraid of being raped the way men aren't. (Obviously this depends on where you live)
Yeah, that what I was actually what I was going for.

The reason, I suspect, why there is such a lack of empathy towards rape victims is that most men cannot see themselves ever becoming rape victims, and they're largely correct in that assumption. Unless you are:

a) A child.
b) In the prison population.
c) Gay or bisexual.

..the chances of it happening to you are virtually nothing. Even if it does happen to you in that situation, noone is going to treat is as your fault. There will be no allegations of "well, you should have struggled" or "are you sure you didn't consent?" or "it sounds like you were sending the wrong signals" or any of the other weird allegations of complicity female victims have to contend with, because of course no "normal" guy would ever want anything put inside him in that way.

This is why it's very easy for many men to trivialize rape, because as mentioned there's no fear. Even male prison rape can be treated as a joke, because it's still something which only happens to other people.

In actuality, some of the things you mentioned being taught to fear are not particularly dangerous, but you're right.. it's about the perception rather than the reality, and that's a big part of why I think it's so damaging to depict rape in an insensitive or male-centric way. It's not just insensitive to rape victims, it's also very enabling to actual rapists, who generally justify their actions by measuring themselves against the stereotypical (and virtually non-existent) "stranger assault rape in a dark alley" scenario.
 

Lieju

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evilthecat said:
This is why it's very easy for many men to trivialize rape, because as mentioned there's no fear. Even male prison rape can be treated as a joke, because it's still something which only happens to other people.
It's kinda the attitude that if they are in prison the deserve to be raped, which is just horrible.

Male rape victims do face shaming and accusations as well, though. Mainly because the idea is that if they 'let' that happen to themselves, they were weak. (Or gay, if the rapist was male.)



evilthecat said:
In actuality, some of the things you mentioned being taught to fear are not particularly dangerous, but you're right.. it's about the perception rather than the reality, and that's a big part of why I think it's so damaging to depict rape in an insensitive or male-centric way. It's not just insensitive to rape victims, it's also very enabling to actual rapists, who generally justify their actions by measuring themselves against the stereotypical (and virtually non-existent) "stranger assault rape in a dark alley" scenario.
That's true. It was always the kind of 'stranger-rapist' that the warnings were about.
 

SadakoMoose

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The Plunk said:
SadakoMoose said:
In our society there is what you might call a rape culture, wherein the issues, terminology, legal precedents and media perception of rape is often times skewed against women.
Woah. I hope you meant to say "rape victims" and not "women" there. If you meant victims, then you might be right. If you actually meant women, then I have to laugh at you. Men being raped is treated as a joke far more often than women being raped, and in some countries, it's legally impossible for women to receive a rape charge for raping men. Of course, maybe in your mind you accidentally conflated "rape victim" and "women", which would imply that you don't think that men can be raped. In which case, oh dear.
I never implied that men couldn't not also be victims of rape. However, I would still argue that in many cases, even in our society, women are highly disadvantaged when dealing with the subject of rape, far more so than men.
Try this link for more info: http://upsettingrapeculture.com/rapeculture.html
 

SadakoMoose

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The Plunk said:
SadakoMoose said:
The Plunk said:
SadakoMoose said:
In our society there is what you might call a rape culture, wherein the issues, terminology, legal precedents and media perception of rape is often times skewed against women.
Woah. I hope you meant to say "rape victims" and not "women" there. If you meant victims, then you might be right. If you actually meant women, then I have to laugh at you. Men being raped is treated as a joke far more often than women being raped, and in some countries, it's legally impossible for women to receive a rape charge for raping men. Of course, maybe in your mind you accidentally conflated "rape victim" and "women", which would imply that you don't think that men can be raped. In which case, oh dear.
I never implied that men couldn't not also be victims of rape. However, I would still argue that in many cases, even in our society, women are highly disadvantaged when dealing with the subject of rape, far more so than men.
Try this link for more info: http://upsettingrapeculture.com/rapeculture.html
There is no "rape culture" in normal western society. Rape is seen by most as the worst crime a person could possibly commit. In normal society, people can come up with a lot of excuses for killing your fellow man. For example: war, self-defense, euthanasia e.t.c. But no normal person believes that there is an excuse for raping someone, even though only a few centuries ago it was considered a normal aspect of war and marriage!

To make this more relevant to the thread, you can see this evident in western media. As someone else mentioned, people can still sympathise with antagonists that have murdered people, they may even hold some reverence for them. But if a writer wants to make a character completely impossible to sympathise with, they will have them rape someone. There are many video games where you can run around massacring endless innocent civilians, but if a game let you rape someone, there would be an outrage!

So unless you believe that there is also an even bigger "murder culture" in western society, then you simply cannot argue that rape culture exists.
The point behind rape culture isn't that it outright endorses rape, but rather that it furthers a collection of beliefs, tropes, imagery, and cliches that make rape seem normal. Not good, not encouraged, but "normal" or "to be expected". No one is suggesting that rapists are ever portrayed as sympathetic, but the way rape itself is portrayed is often based more on cliches seen from the male perspective rather than honestly. That's the problem that most people have when the criticize Millar's work for it's depiction of rape, in that it's irresponsible and continues the tropes and idioms that perpetuate the modern, and still ignorant and still flawed, image of rape. Again, please read the contents on the site I linked in the previous post.
 

Abomination

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FargoDog said:
Abomination said:
You mean what it CAN do to someone mentally and physically...
Uh, no. What it does do. Find me someone who was raped who came away saying 'Well that wasn't so bad.'
That's not an example at to what it does do to someone. All you've done is highlight that it isn't a pleasant experience. The EFFECT it has upon the victim IS subjective.

It's a piece of fiction, it's viewing a scenario through the lens none of us are (I hope) ever going to see. It's a horrible act, just as horrible as writing about a villain doing any other horrible thing like bombing a school, or a hospital, or forcing people to kill each other... or any number of horrible things.
Never said it wasn't. I said Mark Millar devalues the horrible nature of said situation. Before the rape scene, he shows someone gleefully gun down a bunch of young kids. That's also fucking horrible, and he still writes it like a hack. His writing is equally graceless, whether its rape or murder.
So it's poor writing, that doesn't make him a misogynist or sexist.

Yet for some arbitrary reason rape is off the table.
I didn't say that. I just said how Mark Miller presents rape is very poor. But please, keep screaming 'OHMAHGUDCENSORSHIP' if it makes you feel any better.
I never called it censorship, I am calling it an arbitrary line in the sand when it comes to dealing with what evil acts are "okay" to include in fictional media and what ones are not "okay".

You can write about someone dropping nukes on people, you can play a person who nukes an entire town just for shits and giggles... but rape is supposedly "worse".
I've already explained why. Rape puts an emphasis on victimization and suffering much more than outright murder does. The desire to rape is one of power, of making someone suffer for your sick ends. Murder is much easier to rationalise and much cleaner comparatively. Neither is good, rape is just more problematic for a variety of reasons and you need to stop ignoring that.
I'm sorry, I don't see how rape is more problematic than murder. Murdering an innocent to send a message, torturing an innocent to send a message, raping an innocent to send a message... they're all bad and which one is worse is entirely subjective. I'd prefer to be tortured or raped rather than murdered. If you'd rather be murdered than raped then all power to you but to say I'm "ignoring" any aspect of the scenario because I do not view rape to be worse than murder is just completely wrong.

It's all bad, which one is greater or lesser is entirely subjective. His methods of writing might be ham-fisted or "cheap" way of establishing how disgusting a character is... but that doesn't make him sexist, a misogynist or possessing of any other negative moral character flaw.
In my post I made it clear I don't believe he is a misogynist, but his work certainly is. That's probably not his intent, but it shows a lack of self-awareness.
I don't even see how this is an issue then. He writes about misogynist scenarios in a negative manner. As long as he's not putting a positive spin on the thing I don't see how one's work being "misogynist" - I actually don't even see how that's possible. It would require his work to have an opinion or be sentient - is a bad thing.

Where has he ever hinted at the idea that raping something isn't a horrible thing to do to someone?
It's his carefree, look-at-how-shocking I am attitude to a horrible subject that's the problem. You seem to be saying that I think Mark Millar is a terrible person for daring to portray rape, which I never said. I said how he portrays rape (and murder, if you insist on equalising the two) is insensitive, distasteful and serves no purpose other than to shock. Quit with the strawman.
It's not a straw man at all, I'm highlighting just when this should even be a problem. As long as he isn't promoting violence or rape then it's a non-issue.

You might call it "care free", I would call it "brutally honest". In his works a lot of the violence is impersonal... and that's okay. Just like the SAW movies or any other slasher flick.

Some will say he's just putting rape in to put rape in, whereas another person will view it as him establishing just how deranged a villain is.
 

Boris Goodenough

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SadakoMoose said:
That's the problem that most people have when the criticize Millar's work for it's depiction of rape, in that it's irresponsible and continues the tropes and idioms that perpetuate the modern, and still ignorant and still flawed, image of rape. Again, please read the contents on the site I linked in the previous post.
Does this look like a missrepresentation of a rape victim? If no, then those that criticize his work (for that at least) are in the wrong. If yes, well fair enough.