What's with the MMO hate, you hateful haters?
- Thread starter BloatedGuppy
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BloatedGuppy said:
This writing style..with all the swearing, colourful descriptions and pure, unbridled contempt for someone, or perhaps something, the writer disproves of..that you might even say critical of..where have i seen it before?
I suppose its just going to have to remain one of lifes little mysteries.
A repetitive task, consisting of little thought, purely to raise a number to a certain level so that you can move to the next task. An obstacle that can only be overcome by a expenditure of key-presses and time; rather than skill, co-ordination, luck or expertise.BloatedGuppy said:
Having played a LOT of MMOs; it's mainly to do with the insular nature of them. Most games require you to take on a certain amount of new data, but MMOs require a whole new language/etiquette to take in - and the entry level is always as confusing as hell.
Couple that with the recent "innovations" that pat you on the back constantly, an MMO can seem overtly hostile to normal game players - especially when they're only fighting creatures that are slightly less tough than them - in a line - for no real reason.
Games like WoW also bring in the griefing element, the cybering, the auctioning, the begging, the trolling, the downtimes, the ranting, the nerfing...
Especially as it's mainly a PC area - where an MMO is almost the antithesis of console gaming - but resembles console gaming far more than PC gaming.
Generally the dislike comes from the fans; who believe that X counts measure how "good/worthwhile" you are; and they can never quite agree what X is.
All that being said; I quite enjoy MMOs - although I wish they'd innovate a little more. If I see one more ruined village where I have to collect rat-tails near a large body of water - then I'm going to scream.
Personally, it's because single-player games have been sacrificed en masse at the alter of the MMO. The decline in the last six or seven years has been pretty sharp from what it was previously.
As an RPG fan, I could at least be assured a new Dungeons and Dragons game every so often - look at Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights. The last of those came out in 2007, and I wondered what would come next. I waited, and waited, and waited. Then news of a new Neverwinter game came out and surprise - it's an MMO. Joy.
Not that being a Mechwarrior fan is much easier. The last one of those came out in 2002, so when I heard the news about the reboot I was overjoyed. A Mechwarrior game with modern technology behind it, set in the Succession Wars with a campaign you'd be able to co-op with up to three other people to fill out your lance? It's practically what I'd been waiting for since I played the earliest Battletech games on the PC as a kid. Then silence for well over a year and guess what? It's been scrapped completely in favor of - guess what - an MMO. With a completely different setting, story, and all.
At least some companies have had enough sense to refuse to bow down to the thought of all those subscription or microtransaction dollars. I may have problems with Bethesda, but at least they were smart enough to say "That's not what we do" when people kept bugging them to add a multiplayer component to TES games or why they hadn't made an MMO.
In a related note, I laughed at Interplay not being able to make a Fallout MMO. Yes, I still hold them responsible for cancelling Fallout 3 and Baldur's Gate 3 in favor of Brotherhood of Steel and it still irritates me to this day.
As an RPG fan, I could at least be assured a new Dungeons and Dragons game every so often - look at Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights. The last of those came out in 2007, and I wondered what would come next. I waited, and waited, and waited. Then news of a new Neverwinter game came out and surprise - it's an MMO. Joy.
Not that being a Mechwarrior fan is much easier. The last one of those came out in 2002, so when I heard the news about the reboot I was overjoyed. A Mechwarrior game with modern technology behind it, set in the Succession Wars with a campaign you'd be able to co-op with up to three other people to fill out your lance? It's practically what I'd been waiting for since I played the earliest Battletech games on the PC as a kid. Then silence for well over a year and guess what? It's been scrapped completely in favor of - guess what - an MMO. With a completely different setting, story, and all.
At least some companies have had enough sense to refuse to bow down to the thought of all those subscription or microtransaction dollars. I may have problems with Bethesda, but at least they were smart enough to say "That's not what we do" when people kept bugging them to add a multiplayer component to TES games or why they hadn't made an MMO.
In a related note, I laughed at Interplay not being able to make a Fallout MMO. Yes, I still hold them responsible for cancelling Fallout 3 and Baldur's Gate 3 in favor of Brotherhood of Steel and it still irritates me to this day.
My hatred for MMO's comes from the grind design of game play. I've played DDO, WoW and currently am loving my experiences with SWTOR.
I dislike that 80 percent of the game is meaningless travel times with frequent unintentional battles leading you to a quest point. At which time you can sometimes fast travel back to quest giver...or you may you'll have to backtrack since your quick travel cooldown isn't available yet.
I class this as a grind.
What makes SWTOR great despite these problems is the fun combat system and the quality of that 20 percent actual gameplay and story.
My wish for SWTOR is that all quest givers allow completion of quests through holo calls and simply mail the reward to you accordingly. This would allow players to stay in the field as much as possible. Combine this with the removal of a cooldown on the shuttle travel system and you have a much better gaming experience that focuses on fun.
I dislike that 80 percent of the game is meaningless travel times with frequent unintentional battles leading you to a quest point. At which time you can sometimes fast travel back to quest giver...or you may you'll have to backtrack since your quick travel cooldown isn't available yet.
I class this as a grind.
What makes SWTOR great despite these problems is the fun combat system and the quality of that 20 percent actual gameplay and story.
My wish for SWTOR is that all quest givers allow completion of quests through holo calls and simply mail the reward to you accordingly. This would allow players to stay in the field as much as possible. Combine this with the removal of a cooldown on the shuttle travel system and you have a much better gaming experience that focuses on fun.
And I in turn apologise if I appeared unnecessarily aggressive. It just annoys me when people dismiss WoW as being 'click the same three hotkeys/go kill 20 wolves", as though that's all there is to the game. Sure, those elements are present, but not they are not the whole.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
I raided Vanilla WoW and played off an on until the start of last year, and thoroughly enjoyed myself. The skill and challenge comes from using abilities in the right order, from timing and rotation, and from positioning and teamwork. It was exhilarating to have 40 people working in perfect sync to down an epic boss encounter - about as far removed from 'clicking three hotkeys to kill wolves' as is possible in the same game.
And I certainly didn't mean to denigrate your taste in games. I was just saying that the complaints people use against WoW's game mechanics could easily be applied to God of War or Ninja Gaiden.
A lot of the Escapees are Single Player lovers. Just from MY observations, that's what I can tell. MMOs are nothing but the multiplayer. Playing an MMO single player is like expecting a Bethesda game to include a multiplayer Death Match game [Elder Scrolls Arena does not count.] You notice the flaws of an MMO much more quickly or entirely when playing alone because that's not how they are meant to be played.
Now, granted MMOs are heavily flawed. The event of "Beating CoD with FPS games" marketing began with MMOs after WoW was a smash hit. "Make WoW again, make money." That's how the industry thought. Not to mention MMOs are EXPENSIVE AS HELL TO MAKE. The good news though is that on horizon, and even now, several MMOs have been released and are beginning to break boarders, break free from the WoW cloning. I've said before and I'll say it again, Guild Wars 2 is a great example of this. Already in existence we have games like DC Universe Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, The Old Republics take on quest dialog. All of these are revolutionary for the genre. The genre is advancing, just take the time to look.
Now, granted MMOs are heavily flawed. The event of "Beating CoD with FPS games" marketing began with MMOs after WoW was a smash hit. "Make WoW again, make money." That's how the industry thought. Not to mention MMOs are EXPENSIVE AS HELL TO MAKE. The good news though is that on horizon, and even now, several MMOs have been released and are beginning to break boarders, break free from the WoW cloning. I've said before and I'll say it again, Guild Wars 2 is a great example of this. Already in existence we have games like DC Universe Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, The Old Republics take on quest dialog. All of these are revolutionary for the genre. The genre is advancing, just take the time to look.
I think its because the massive cost in developing and maintaining them leads to developers being forced to take very little risk in the game design, which makes MMOs very similar and boring in their core design.
There are a few innervations happening now, guild wars is a bit different, SWTOR has a lot more focus on story. SWTOR still has the same dull combat, grind, loot, raid formula when you look at the core mechanics through.
It is a big problem that as soon as someone mentions an MMO it is assumed that it is the same as all the rest when it comes to the core mechanics.
People within the industry make the same assumption leading to many so called WOW clones. Production companies in particular are blinded by WOW's financial success.
There are a few innervations happening now, guild wars is a bit different, SWTOR has a lot more focus on story. SWTOR still has the same dull combat, grind, loot, raid formula when you look at the core mechanics through.
It is a big problem that as soon as someone mentions an MMO it is assumed that it is the same as all the rest when it comes to the core mechanics.
People within the industry make the same assumption leading to many so called WOW clones. Production companies in particular are blinded by WOW's financial success.
BECAUSE THE OLD REPUBLIC DEFILED MY CHILDHOOD.
Okay, so that's a bit extreme, but what I am trying to say is that the old republic screwed with the original kotor series (Which I first played between the ages of 12-13, Okay maybe not childhood but more early years of gaming.) For instance, from what I learned Revan is defeated and basically killed by a group of dark jedi (I.E, he is a raid/dungeon boss for the darkside.) A group of dark jedi. Like the hundreds of which he mercilessly slaughtered at the end of the first game. Also apparently the exile (one of my favorite characters, next to Revan of course) gets stabbed in the back by a lightsaber by that some sith lord.
Also, The release of the MMO ensures that we will never get a Kotor 3, Thus we will never get a satisfying end to the series. But if Bioware wants to declare everything after the second game as non-canon and make a kotor 3 with a new plot-line, I'd be totally okay with it.
See, I have a problem how it warps and twist the Kotor universe to work with an MMO. I don't have abase problem with MMO's, I just hate it when then screw up story lines and become boring and repetitive money-grabbers.
Okay, so that's a bit extreme, but what I am trying to say is that the old republic screwed with the original kotor series (Which I first played between the ages of 12-13, Okay maybe not childhood but more early years of gaming.) For instance, from what I learned Revan is defeated and basically killed by a group of dark jedi (I.E, he is a raid/dungeon boss for the darkside.) A group of dark jedi. Like the hundreds of which he mercilessly slaughtered at the end of the first game. Also apparently the exile (one of my favorite characters, next to Revan of course) gets stabbed in the back by a lightsaber by that some sith lord.
Also, The release of the MMO ensures that we will never get a Kotor 3, Thus we will never get a satisfying end to the series. But if Bioware wants to declare everything after the second game as non-canon and make a kotor 3 with a new plot-line, I'd be totally okay with it.
See, I have a problem how it warps and twist the Kotor universe to work with an MMO. I don't have abase problem with MMO's, I just hate it when then screw up story lines and become boring and repetitive money-grabbers.
probably a variety of reasons but heres a few.
The grind, you have to have A LOT of free time to get into an MMO and you don't spend 90% of that time having fun you spend it grinding for experience and gold.
High barrier to entry level, You can't just pick up an MMO and play it, no sir-EE! you have to study the mmo, breathe the mmo, you have to look up strategies for boss fights, character builds, and such online and if you don't do this people will call you names and while we all like to act tough and be like "I don't care if someone calls me a noob" in the end we really do, my proof is that A. We still call people noobs, and B. we feel the need to publicly announce how we are not upset showing we are clearly upset most of the time. MMOs and their players are harsh, you can't just join in a raid in WoW and enjoy it you have to have a certain item level, a certain sequence of spells, a certain balance of classes in your party or people will be mean to you.
Time/money: people who play mmos don't feel realistic because they but an abnormally large amount of time into it, by the time it takes you to reach level 85 in WoW you will have spent as much money on the game, its various expansions, and subscription fees as well as much time in real life as it would have taken you to learn how to play an instrument or learn another language. Quite frankly, when someone obsessives over something like a video game they are bound to come off as total weirdos and MMOs REQUIRE that you obsess over them to get any fun out of them.
I used to play WoW, and I would spend about two-three hours every other night on it, combined with 50$ for the initial game, 115$ on expansions and over 200$ on subscription fees.
I came out of that with bad eyesight, bad skin, and a short temper.
Now adays I do Karate twice a week for 4 hours, I made one initial payment of 10$ for membership and another payment of 40$ for the outfit, In the two months I've been doing it I went from tripping over my own feet and weighing 205 lbs to being able to easily perform 3 Katas, weighing 190 pounds, having decent skin, and a shit ton of patience. Also I can say each time I went to Karate I had a lot more fun than each time I played World of Warcraft and the friends I made in Karate are a lot closer than the friends I made online.
Despite this the classes I attend only have three students and are struggling to stay in existence where as World of Warcraft has millions of players and generates enough money to fix the United States economical issues.
Sooooo those are some reasons I think MMO players don't get as much respect as you think they deserve.
The grind, you have to have A LOT of free time to get into an MMO and you don't spend 90% of that time having fun you spend it grinding for experience and gold.
High barrier to entry level, You can't just pick up an MMO and play it, no sir-EE! you have to study the mmo, breathe the mmo, you have to look up strategies for boss fights, character builds, and such online and if you don't do this people will call you names and while we all like to act tough and be like "I don't care if someone calls me a noob" in the end we really do, my proof is that A. We still call people noobs, and B. we feel the need to publicly announce how we are not upset showing we are clearly upset most of the time. MMOs and their players are harsh, you can't just join in a raid in WoW and enjoy it you have to have a certain item level, a certain sequence of spells, a certain balance of classes in your party or people will be mean to you.
Time/money: people who play mmos don't feel realistic because they but an abnormally large amount of time into it, by the time it takes you to reach level 85 in WoW you will have spent as much money on the game, its various expansions, and subscription fees as well as much time in real life as it would have taken you to learn how to play an instrument or learn another language. Quite frankly, when someone obsessives over something like a video game they are bound to come off as total weirdos and MMOs REQUIRE that you obsess over them to get any fun out of them.
I used to play WoW, and I would spend about two-three hours every other night on it, combined with 50$ for the initial game, 115$ on expansions and over 200$ on subscription fees.
I came out of that with bad eyesight, bad skin, and a short temper.
Now adays I do Karate twice a week for 4 hours, I made one initial payment of 10$ for membership and another payment of 40$ for the outfit, In the two months I've been doing it I went from tripping over my own feet and weighing 205 lbs to being able to easily perform 3 Katas, weighing 190 pounds, having decent skin, and a shit ton of patience. Also I can say each time I went to Karate I had a lot more fun than each time I played World of Warcraft and the friends I made in Karate are a lot closer than the friends I made online.
Despite this the classes I attend only have three students and are struggling to stay in existence where as World of Warcraft has millions of players and generates enough money to fix the United States economical issues.
Sooooo those are some reasons I think MMO players don't get as much respect as you think they deserve.
I never really cared for the setup of MMOs. I just think the entire gameplay concept is a waste of time. The only things that ever really drew me to an MMO is no longer present in MMOs, since they segregate everything. You can't PvP here, you can't do this, you can't upset people. I liked it better when you just threw everyone in the big world and let the players sculpt the world through their own storyline. Sure it leaves itself open to lots of griefing, but at least its unique and doesn't just feel like a really crappy watered down RPG, which is what most MMOs feel like today.
Of course, I am just hugely biased because I've never played an MMO I thought was good really. I've had fun moments in MMOs, but never really thought the gameplay itself was fun. The only exception was probably City of Heroes.
Of course, I am just hugely biased because I've never played an MMO I thought was good really. I've had fun moments in MMOs, but never really thought the gameplay itself was fun. The only exception was probably City of Heroes.
I don't hate on MMO's, but I do think they've become a little tired, boring, and formulaic. I've got my hopes up for The Secret World, but I'm pretty sure I have a lot of waiting to do.
Ok, you asked why I dislike mmorpgs. (mmo games in general are fine.)
First off the mechanics.
I understand that planning before going into battle is one thing but for a lot of melee characters, it can boil down to use attack A with buffs B-Z untill mob is dead. Repetition leads to madness. I don't enjoy killing the same enemy, for over 8 hours for 10% to level when I get to the high areas. It just seems like a numbers game ... I hate math.
The settings
You know there's going to be a grind but hey, look at all the environments. I don't care how nice the waterfall is, after spending a month infront of it, it looses its appeal. The mobs have the same effect and pvp can normally be summed down to whoever spent the more time grinding than the other wins unless the other is on the winning side of the build advantage.
The moderators
They can't catch everyone. Also, with some of the large mmo's false bans can take forever to get appealed. Also, I've seen a few people with the position try to abuse their powers.
Hackers
They get to explore the entire game from the beginning, getting to see stuff that would take half a lifetime for a normal player while at the same time being able to completely destroy them despite all their hard work. Honestly, I can't blame them ... they seem to be having a lot more fun in general.
The money issue
Money's tight, times are hard, don't wanna pay for the same game over and over to keep my char from getting deleted. I know the game's ment to be endless with all the updates but I'm still spending hours upon hours killing the supposedly most efficient mobs so I never really get to see any of it unless I wanna be passed by the people with more dedication to the grind.
EXP
Ok, words fail me so let's do a scenario:
I paid about 20bucks a week for 2x exp pots that last an hour each.
I grind for about 28hrs per level.
I die, I lose 10% unless I paid for the "1-time insurance spell"
That means that for every death, I lose 2.8 hours of my work that I value at around 15usd.
Lagging does not pause and immediately dc my character.
Random rainstorm ...
We all know what happens when you stand in a high aggro area and leave the computer.
Do the math. It's not worth my time. x_x
Right now, the closest thing I've come back to a mmorpg is Dark Souls and at least it lets me recover my stuff if I die. And now ... *raises flame shield*
First off the mechanics.
I understand that planning before going into battle is one thing but for a lot of melee characters, it can boil down to use attack A with buffs B-Z untill mob is dead. Repetition leads to madness. I don't enjoy killing the same enemy, for over 8 hours for 10% to level when I get to the high areas. It just seems like a numbers game ... I hate math.
The settings
You know there's going to be a grind but hey, look at all the environments. I don't care how nice the waterfall is, after spending a month infront of it, it looses its appeal. The mobs have the same effect and pvp can normally be summed down to whoever spent the more time grinding than the other wins unless the other is on the winning side of the build advantage.
The moderators
They can't catch everyone. Also, with some of the large mmo's false bans can take forever to get appealed. Also, I've seen a few people with the position try to abuse their powers.
Hackers
They get to explore the entire game from the beginning, getting to see stuff that would take half a lifetime for a normal player while at the same time being able to completely destroy them despite all their hard work. Honestly, I can't blame them ... they seem to be having a lot more fun in general.
The money issue
Money's tight, times are hard, don't wanna pay for the same game over and over to keep my char from getting deleted. I know the game's ment to be endless with all the updates but I'm still spending hours upon hours killing the supposedly most efficient mobs so I never really get to see any of it unless I wanna be passed by the people with more dedication to the grind.
EXP
Ok, words fail me so let's do a scenario:
I paid about 20bucks a week for 2x exp pots that last an hour each.
I grind for about 28hrs per level.
I die, I lose 10% unless I paid for the "1-time insurance spell"
That means that for every death, I lose 2.8 hours of my work that I value at around 15usd.
Lagging does not pause and immediately dc my character.
Random rainstorm ...
We all know what happens when you stand in a high aggro area and leave the computer.
Do the math. It's not worth my time. x_x
Right now, the closest thing I've come back to a mmorpg is Dark Souls and at least it lets me recover my stuff if I die. And now ... *raises flame shield*
I can't stand most MMOs, but not because of their MMO-ness. Their status as MMO does not bother me. I just hate PKers coming around thinking they're the shit because they've been playing longer than me and have that +6 axe. Yeah, teabag my corpse, that's fantastic. I really feel like a valued player right now. Yup.
MMOs also go too fast for me in general. My reflexes aren't fantastic as is, but I'm also not capable of memorizing 60 hotkeys under any circumstances. By the time I struggle through the menus and start casting spells, I should already be running away. By the time I'm running away, I'm one shot away from dead. Nobody wants a guy with the reflexes of a stone statue helping them level, which makes sense to me.
They tend to be rather expensive over time, particularly if the game gets the claws in you (guilds, dedicated party groups, in-game friends, etc.). I already have two expensive habits, I can't stand to have a third. It just wouldn't work out.
Basically; MMOs, it's not you, it's me. Dofus is usually my MMO of choice, because it's turn-based and very straightforward to start, plus the art style gives me an artistic bon-I just really like it OK.
MMOs also go too fast for me in general. My reflexes aren't fantastic as is, but I'm also not capable of memorizing 60 hotkeys under any circumstances. By the time I struggle through the menus and start casting spells, I should already be running away. By the time I'm running away, I'm one shot away from dead. Nobody wants a guy with the reflexes of a stone statue helping them level, which makes sense to me.
They tend to be rather expensive over time, particularly if the game gets the claws in you (guilds, dedicated party groups, in-game friends, etc.). I already have two expensive habits, I can't stand to have a third. It just wouldn't work out.
Basically; MMOs, it's not you, it's me. Dofus is usually my MMO of choice, because it's turn-based and very straightforward to start, plus the art style gives me an artistic bon-I just really like it OK.
i don't hate MMOs, just logged out of one in fact, i hate WoW, for being over hyped, non(or is it un?) engaging tripe that for the life of me can not understand why people like it, but thats as far as my 'MMO' hate gose
I don't hate MMOs, in fact quite the opposite. I'm a huge MMO fan. My only issue with them has been the community, and of course I'm generalizing here, that forms where if I don't have the best gear, or I don't have insane PvP numbers, or some such nonsense than I am less than a person. The word "noob" fills me with an unquantifiable rage.
The only MMO I have ever played where I -never- experienced this was City of Heroes.
The only MMO I have ever played where I -never- experienced this was City of Heroes.
I don't hate on MMOs at all, but they are not for me. There are a number of issues which prevent me from truly enjoying or participating them.
Foremost is the subscription fee; fifteen bucks a month is too pricy for me, especially if I'm not likely to play it all the time and for an extended period. My experience with most free-to-play online games (like Echo Bazaar) or even full MMOs (like Champions Online) tend to last me only a month or so before I greatly lose interest, so a consistent fee doesn't sound very cost-effective, especially since I could save up for other games with that same money. Even "pay until you're done with it, then stop" doesn't feel like a compelling argument, as I had problems when I used to play Star Wars Galaxies and Sony Online kept renewing my subscription even though I cancelled it! Maybe other MMO companies don't pull that shit, but it seriously damaged my trust towards the subscription fee system.
Secondly, and another major factor, is the matter of personal time. I live with my disabled aunt and she regularly relies on me for various tasks. This more or less means that I need to be available to leave my computer in a reasonable amount of time. A lengthy cutscene is something I can work around, but a vast, hostile environment that I cannot pause in is something else entirely. And before you say "Just go to /afk mode"... last I checked, players may respect that, but the AI certainly doesn't give a fuck. The last thing I want is to step away from my game for a minute and find that I've been killed in the meantime.
Lastly, most MMOs emphasize the multiplayer aspect. You can solo up to a point, but eventually you need to join a larger group. First, I would prefer to play solo in a world where other people do their own thing and not be forced into a group by necessity. Second, see my point about "I need to be available for my aunt;" I don't want to let my potential group down because I had to go AFK at a crucial moment.
Foremost is the subscription fee; fifteen bucks a month is too pricy for me, especially if I'm not likely to play it all the time and for an extended period. My experience with most free-to-play online games (like Echo Bazaar) or even full MMOs (like Champions Online) tend to last me only a month or so before I greatly lose interest, so a consistent fee doesn't sound very cost-effective, especially since I could save up for other games with that same money. Even "pay until you're done with it, then stop" doesn't feel like a compelling argument, as I had problems when I used to play Star Wars Galaxies and Sony Online kept renewing my subscription even though I cancelled it! Maybe other MMO companies don't pull that shit, but it seriously damaged my trust towards the subscription fee system.
Secondly, and another major factor, is the matter of personal time. I live with my disabled aunt and she regularly relies on me for various tasks. This more or less means that I need to be available to leave my computer in a reasonable amount of time. A lengthy cutscene is something I can work around, but a vast, hostile environment that I cannot pause in is something else entirely. And before you say "Just go to /afk mode"... last I checked, players may respect that, but the AI certainly doesn't give a fuck. The last thing I want is to step away from my game for a minute and find that I've been killed in the meantime.
Lastly, most MMOs emphasize the multiplayer aspect. You can solo up to a point, but eventually you need to join a larger group. First, I would prefer to play solo in a world where other people do their own thing and not be forced into a group by necessity. Second, see my point about "I need to be available for my aunt;" I don't want to let my potential group down because I had to go AFK at a crucial moment.
