What's Wrong with Xbox Live?

Recommended Videos

The Axon Hillock

New member
Sep 4, 2010
83
0
0
I'm perfectly happy with XBox 360 Silver. I can download Braid, watch new episodes of the Guild, watch little trailers for upcoming games, and when I need an online multiplayer experience, I just turn on my PS3. I can't afford a fancy shmancy computer on a college student budget, so I buy single player games to use with my XBox and its superior controller, and multiplayer games to use on my PS3 with its superior price for live.

I also system-link games of Gears of War. A LOT.
 

ars731

New member
Nov 10, 2006
145
0
0
Remember how all the PC gamers went nuts over Modern Warfare 2 not having dedicated servers. well this is why. Dedicated servers are one of the best part of PC gaming
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
Shamus Young said:
Experienced Points: What's Wrong with Xbox Live?

Everything would be much better if Xbox would just let us run its servers.

Read Full Article
Only it's worse than that as Xbox doesn't even use "servers" in any familiar sense.

They have controller servers but they are just running authorisation and stat-tracking. The actual games are almost universally (all the Halo games, all COD games, all GoW games) peer-2-peer online including Halo 2. You have Literally already paid for these servers as the host of the game their console acts as the server, the ISP they pay to connect to the internet and their power bill is the runnign costs. XBL SHOULD be free!

Halo 2 was shut down because the underlying code of XBL used with original Xbox had a limit of how many friends you could have, It was some number over 100 but it increase that limit ALL original-xbox multiplayer games had to be shut down. yeah, what's more important Halo 2 multiplayer or having over 100 facebook "friends" most you don't even know?

Online multiplayer for Halo 1 and 2 are still going strong online on their PC releases. I know Halo 3 will see the same fate on 360 soon, here's hoping for a belated PC release.
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
Asparagus Brown said:
I don't think dedicated servers on Xbox live is a very good idea at all.

How do you run worldwide leaderboards across multiple servers?

It complicates a service that's intended to be simple, accessible and completely connected.
I think you have been misled on or misunderstood how online gaming works.

We are talking about Game HOSTING. That is the heavy processing and high server load of running the game and sharing out the millions of data packets to each player in their home with low latency.

With dedicated servers (as usual on PC), you rent a specialised super-computer (or portion of one) that is positioned deep in the networks of the internet with the lowest possible latency for all, and enterprise level reliability.

With consoles most of the time it is just peer-to-peer where most of the work is STILL done by the users. There are algorithms to find groups of consoles trying to connect that decide which is best to serve as the "host". The host (person at home with their Xbox connected online) functions just the same as a dedicated server only:
-higher latency
-host advantage
-lower reliability
-poor control
-poor organisation
-inflexible
-basically all bad.

But the stat-tracking, leaderboards, authorisation and achievement tracking is not done by either the Dedicated server OR the host console, that is a LOW DATA VOLUME task run by a few low-power servers owned and operated by the parent company, it basically stands over that and takes a note of everything that happens. It works like for Steam, where the overwhelming majority of games are on dedicated servers but all the time Valve's Steam client-software (much like XBL) is offering support, tracking and assisting but not actually running much at all.
 

Lerxst

New member
Mar 30, 2008
269
0
0
Xbox Live is the reason I have never and will never buy an Xbox. I can get the same thing they charge you for, for free on a PC. Never made sense that I had to pay for it (and a more restrictive version for that matter) on an Xbox.
 

hyperdrachen

New member
Jan 1, 2008
468
0
0
Shamus Young said:
Experienced Points: What's Wrong with Xbox Live?

Everything would be much better if Xbox would just let us run its servers.

Read Full Article
We'll thanks for putting my thoughts on Xbox live under a your more read, and I'll guess respected colum than my random forum rant.

Paying is fine, but what I'm getting for the money is questionable. I'd gleefuly fork over that 60 dollars if they would implement some of the features you mentioned. I wouldn't likely run my own server, depending on how deep i get into Reach's forge. But having been an avid PC gamer as well I'll say your pub analogy is a good one, and something that would do the creative tools of forge alot more justice than they'll ever see on live as is.
 

Asparagus Brown

New member
Sep 1, 2008
85
0
0
Treblaine said:
Asparagus Brown said:
I don't think dedicated servers on Xbox live is a very good idea at all.

How do you run worldwide leaderboards across multiple servers?

It complicates a service that's intended to be simple, accessible and completely connected.
I think you have been misled on or misunderstood how online gaming works.

We are talking about Game HOSTING. That is the heavy processing and high server load of running the game and sharing out the millions of data packets to each player in their home with low latency.

With dedicated servers (as usual on PC), you rent a specialised super-computer (or portion of one) that is positioned deep in the networks of the internet with the lowest possible latency for all, and enterprise level reliability.

With consoles most of the time it is just peer-to-peer where most of the work is STILL done by the users. There are algorithms to find groups of consoles trying to connect that decide which is best to serve as the "host". The host (person at home with their Xbox connected online) functions just the same as a dedicated server only:
-higher latency
-host advantage
-lower reliability
-poor control
-poor organisation
-inflexible
-basically all bad.

But the stat-tracking, leaderboards, authorisation and achievement tracking is not done by either the Dedicated server OR the host console, that is a LOW DATA VOLUME task run by a few low-power servers owned and operated by the parent company, it basically stands over that and takes a note of everything that happens. It works like for Steam, where the overwhelming majority of games are on dedicated servers but all the time Valve's Steam client-software (much like XBL) is offering support, tracking and assisting but not actually running much at all.
"If you just want a six-person server with your friends, it might run you something like $8 a month." I imagine it'd be difficult to rank these people against the rest of the world.

You're right, though: I don't know a whole heap about how online gaming works, which is in part why the whole Xbox Live thing appeals to me. It means I can throw in a disc and jump into a game and it's as simple as that. I realise there are large downsides to the Live model in regards to performance and moderation, but I think that fracturing it into user-run moderated servers isn't the best in terms of accessibility, which seems to be one of Microsoft's main goals with the service.

Anyway, feel free to inform/correct me on that if there's anything I've said that doesn't add up.
 

wasalp

New member
Dec 22, 2008
512
0
0
GamesB2 said:
Denamic said:
Either you didn't read the article or you're completely oblivious of how player run dedicated servers work.
Well yes I did skim the article originally.

Then I read the article in depth.

Then you get an instance of a game where you have all the admin powers. You can set the maps and the game mode and boot or mute at will.
So yeah my original point still stands.
which is why most of those hosts servers are going to be empty, theres a sort of natural selection that happens with player run servers, the good serveres are busy and the bad ones aren't.
 

TitsMcGee1804

New member
Dec 24, 2008
244
0
0
this is why companies like valve and blizzard will one day rule the market and eventually the world, and companies like EA and microsoft will go bust

edit: okay, maybe MS wont go bust but you get the idea
 

Roboto

New member
Nov 18, 2009
332
0
0
GamesB2 said:
Denamic said:
See, the thing is, what you're describing is called a "shitty server".
Wait, don't panic! It's okay.
Just put that server on your shitlist and play on another server.
Yeah but I'm surprised at how many PC dedicated servers are like that too.

And anyway Microsoft wouldn't want people boosting achievements and stuff.

I can just see MS outright saying no and I can't blame them... Live is more of a guided service than an open platform.
We here in the PC world call them rankup servers, but yeah what you said :)
 

KissofKetchup

New member
May 26, 2008
702
0
0
First off, I honestly doubt that a great number of people would fork over the cash for a dedicated server to run, at least not in the numbers that PC gamers would have. I find this to be true mainly because of the different kind of gamer that is the Xbox 360 player. Many, if not most, don't even know how to run a server. They're the college kid, Madden, Halo, and COD player that's majoring in buisness or sports management. Console gaming in general is better suited to the less technologically adept (not that they are totally inept at using technology, it's just that I doubt any of them have ever built a computer or anything like that).

Secondly, on a less serious note, moderators on internet forums does not always mean civilized, mature discussion, just look at 4chan. lol
 

Macflash

New member
Dec 29, 2007
70
0
0
If players had to run their servers, they'd just be like the servers in PC games. Laggy, annoying, and formidable to the unexperienced player. Say you want to find play a game, you've had a long day. You sit down to play your favorite console game, and to find a match you have to sift through lists of thousands of servers to try to find one playing a game settings you like that has a decent ping and might have people of your same skill level, and then the countless other factors. Or you just want to be in a game with your friends, you don't want to deal with finding a server with room for all of you and a place where you can be on the same team, that has a good ping for all your friends, etc.

Basically, if you want dedicated self run servers, go play a PC game. Servers have more customization options there, you can run custom mods which are impossible on the Xbox, because they won't allow you to download the necessary files and whatnot. And you can play there for free.

I will stick to letting the Microsoft servers find me a nice multiplayer match, so I can focus on shooting random strangers in their virtual face.
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
Asparagus Brown said:
Treblaine said:
Asparagus Brown said:
I don't think dedicated servers on Xbox live is a very good idea at all.

How do you run worldwide leaderboards across multiple servers?

It complicates a service that's intended to be simple, accessible and completely connected.
I think you have been misled on or misunderstood how online gaming works.

We are talking about Game HOSTING. That is the heavy processing and high server load of running the game and sharing out the millions of data packets to each player in their home with low latency.

With dedicated servers (as usual on PC), you rent a specialised super-computer (or portion of one) that is positioned deep in the networks of the internet with the lowest possible latency for all, and enterprise level reliability.

With consoles most of the time it is just peer-to-peer where most of the work is STILL done by the users. There are algorithms to find groups of consoles trying to connect that decide which is best to serve as the "host". The host (person at home with their Xbox connected online) functions just the same as a dedicated server only:
-higher latency
-host advantage
-lower reliability
-poor control
-poor organisation
-inflexible
-basically all bad.

But the stat-tracking, leaderboards, authorisation and achievement tracking is not done by either the Dedicated server OR the host console, that is a LOW DATA VOLUME task run by a few low-power servers owned and operated by the parent company, it basically stands over that and takes a note of everything that happens. It works like for Steam, where the overwhelming majority of games are on dedicated servers but all the time Valve's Steam client-software (much like XBL) is offering support, tracking and assisting but not actually running much at all.
"If you just want a six-person server with your friends, it might run you something like $8 a month." I imagine it'd be difficult to rank these people against the rest of the world.

You're right, though: I don't know a whole heap about how online gaming works, which is in part why the whole Xbox Live thing appeals to me. It means I can throw in a disc and jump into a game and it's as simple as that. I realise there are large downsides to the Live model in regards to performance and moderation, but I think that fracturing it into user-run moderated servers isn't the best in terms of accessibility, which seems to be one of Microsoft's main goals with the service.

Anyway, feel free to inform/correct me on that if there's anything I've said that doesn't add up.
NOPE!

Just because ONE SINGLE SERVER that six people join exist does NOT mean there cannot be an over-arching stat-tracking system covering ALL servers that a game might connect to.

Valve Software's very popular Steam Client lets you connect your game to any server, including servers as small as only 4 players, and with supported games still track all achievements, stats, leader-boards and all that crap. And you don't need to know a thing about how it works for it to happen. Just launch the game (don't even have to insert the disc) and join a muliplayer game.

The least Microsoft could do is have dedicated servers available on GOLD membership and have just peer-2-peer online for the free silver membership. Many games are able to easily operate on both types of network protocols.

Are Xbox 360 gamers fundamentally more immature and anti-social than PC gamers that even the best of them cannot consistently be trusted to host servers? Well i wouldn't know as no one has ever given them the opportunity and frankly the way that console gamers are treated by Microsoft it certainly doesn't inspire positive gaming attitudes like: fair play, good sportsmanship, dedication and commitment to maintaining systems.
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
Macflash said:
If players had to run their servers, they'd just be like the servers in PC games. Laggy, annoying, and formidable to the unexperienced player. Say you want to find play a game, you've had a long day. You sit down to play your favorite console game, and to find a match you have to sift through lists of thousands of servers to try to find one playing a game settings you like that has a decent ping and might have people of your same skill level, and then the countless other factors. Or you just want to be in a game with your friends, you don't want to deal with finding a server with room for all of you and a place where you can be on the same team, that has a good ping for all your friends, etc.

Basically, if you want dedicated self run servers, go play a PC game. Servers have more customization options there, you can run custom mods which are impossible on the Xbox, because they won't allow you to download the necessary files and whatnot. And you can play there for free.

I will stick to letting the Microsoft servers find me a nice multiplayer match, so I can focus on shooting random strangers in their virtual face.
You get just as bad and WORSE latency on console... they just hide the ping value from you.

Peer-2-peer online is perfectly capable on PC (even more so even) just as consoles. It is used so infrequently for very good reasons.

Also, host advantage sucks balls.
 

Aegwadar

New member
Apr 2, 2009
221
0
0
Flexibility was never really in the cards for consoles... Why would the producers of the consoles be any more flexible? They're is likely a valid reason for not allowing the DLC via Valve's side.

I agree that a increased ability to navigate servers via Xbox Live would friggin rock, but Microsoft's apparent neutral stance is starting to turn towards the negative. They don't really seem to justify actions, or for that matter, care to explain there "mission statement" with regards to Xbox Live.... Eh, still gonna go to the Xbox for my shooters.

Good article!
 

Narcogen

Rampant.
Jul 26, 2006
193
0
0
It's not the only bit that's wrong, but it's worth pointing out that community run servers would not have saved Halo 2 from shutdown, because servers were not the issue.

While Halo 2 has a client-server networking model, it doesn't take over until the match is set up, and one of the client Xboxes is chosen as the server. The job of setting things up is handled by Xbox Live's servers (so you can login to your XBL profile on your Xbox) and Bungie's matchmaking servers (that handles playlists and player rankings).

Halo 2 was shut off because changes to Microsoft's XBL service were made that were not being backported to the original Xbox. Online support for all original consoles and original games in emulation was dropped on that day-- regardless of the number of Xbox clients out there that were still potential "community run" servers.

To keep Halo 2 running you wouldn't have needed instances of Halo 2 running, since those were already irrelevant. You'd have needed an emulator of Microsoft's original Xbox Live service running.

That is all aside from the point that community run servers are not actually better, unless you run one yourself. There's no reason to believe the average community moderator would be much better than the average Halo player, considering that you wouldn't run such a server unless you're a player of the game.

The whole point of XBL was to address things that were missing and broken in the dedicated server model, and taking a step backwards makes no sense.

Matching by skill? Can't happen with dedicated servers, since they don't communicate to each other.

Reliable, persistent statistics about all games you've played ever, at a central location so you can review and share? Can't happen with dedicated servers, unless you figure out how to crack open your console and do analysis on your own logfiles. The server logfiles are spread around with the servers. They don't talk to each other, and you have no idea when one will go offline, become unavailable, or be retired. Not to mention that now the developers can't do features like playlists, because the problem of managing optional map packs has now been multiplied by the size of your community moderated server population. Do they have to pay for maps? Do they get them all for free?

All Xbox Live games use Xbox consoles as servers. What are these community servers going to run on? How can individual console owners/XBL subscribers be given the kind of administrative access over multiplayer games running on their console without compromising safety and fairness? Shouldn't server admins be prohibited from playing on their own server, for fear of unfair advantage? If you restrict an admin's access, in what way is it actually a dedicated server?

I'm not really sure what Shamus is really asking Microsoft to do-- and I'm not sure he does, either, beyond a vague sort of nostalgia for the halcyon days of PC gaming where you spent more time looking for servers than actually playing.

What I am sure of, is that there is no way which matters where that model is better than what XBL does.

As for TF2-- Microsoft won't let a rival platform owner (Steam is a platform) distribute content for free through XBL. This is a surprise?

Many have noticed that in order to keep pace, if a publisher gives away something on PS3, they make it free on XBL as well. Of course, Valve has a nice excuse there-- they like PSN, but updating TF2 on PS3 is EA's job. So PC gamers are downloading multiple updates per day (wait, this is an advantage?) and console owners get nothing-- but somehow that's EA's fault and Microsoft's fault, not Valve's fault or Sony's fault, and of course there is no way this is actually just part of a power struggle between Microsoft and Valve over pricing and distribution. No way. Not a bit of it. Shame on you for thinking it.