Where is the justice?

[Kortney]

What do you have against ACCURATELY quoting someone? If you are going to quote don't just take the pieces that you think serve your argument and chop up everything else that was said leaving out whatever parts you feel like.

Because then you know exactly what parts I am replying to. The only parts of your post I did not reply to were paragraphs that were completely irrelevant to both your point and my point.

You're post was quoted in it's ENTIRETY. I suppose equal respect is a bit much to ask eh? Color me shocked.

Quoting someone in entirety doesn't equate to respect. I won't quote your post in entirety for this post because there are specific points I need to counter that you have raised. I can't do that as clearly if I quote you in full. Please don't take it as a sign of disrespect, because well, it's not.

You say here that I AGREE with it? Because I defended the first amendment?

Well you obviously do agree with it. Why else would you defend it? Do you not agree with the rights in your amendments?

Wow that's a special type of interpretation there. However since EQUAL respect during a debate is not possible here this is where this conversation, as well as my re-emergence onto the net ENDS.
I forgot that you "unique" folk have more desire to be right than to do right.

Care to post specific examples of this? Or are you still sore because I didn't reply to you in entirety?

I have not disrespected you once.

By the way if this is how you treat (or allow to be treated) everyone who peeks in here to see what's going on with gamers these days don't be surprised when there's no one left who really cares what you think. After all you didn't care about listening to them.

Ok. Still not going to reply to any part of my last post?

Actually I owe you a lot. REALLY. Cuz, to be honest yeah, I'm laid up and bored right now and I can't game, but man, I'm gonna' get better and at least now when that happens I won't be stuck here because right now I can think of about 8000 things more productive than trying to even talk to "gamers". It's what the market decides right? So don't be surprised when the market (which has already changed) decides that whether it's sex or violence we don't need it in our games.

First of all, I don't identify myself as a gamer. Secondly, I responded in a perfectly civil manner to every relevant point you brought up. You then respond with a whole lot of nothing except for strange ranting about "gamers" these days. Tell me which one is more polite.

Have a good day. And I certainly do not wish you disrespect or anything else you seem to be sore over. I apologise for that. That was certainly not my intention .

Edit: By the way, if you want to talk about posting etiquette, it's not entirely polite to post every second word in caps to make your point. In comes across as incredibly hostile. That may be why I was slightly stand-offish in my last post. I apologise.

 

[Eri]

the reason drawn pornographic material of children is illegal is because it may exacerbate a pedophiles mental affliction leading them to play out their fantasies in real life. the reason drawn child pornography is wrong is because it caters exclusively to the disgusting wants pedophiles. if you wank to sexual images of children drawn or otherwise you are a pedophile and need to seek out help.

You mean like how Call of Duty leads me to go murder whole hosts of people? Sorry about that.

 

[GotMalkAvian]

Where the fuck do you live? For some reason, I doubt either of you live in Sweden or Japan. If you live in America, this doesn't affect you. If you live in America, you have the right to appeal this shit. Don't take a random case from a completely different country and start raging about social and unlawful injustice.

Wow, didn't expect that much aggression... But, sure, I agree with you. Why should anyone be concerned with anything that isn't going on in their own living room? Surely in this day and age events don't affect the world or anything...
Now, if any country is obsessed with pedophiles, it's America. It's not really unreasonable to believe that news of the Swedish ruling would reach America, and people would start lobbying for similar laws over here "to protect the children."
Sure, we can appeal things in America, but that's far from a guaranteed way to get out of something. The appeals process is lengthy, costly, and often takes place while the defendent is already serving their sentence.

 

[GotMalkAvian]

It´s so clear many of you are not parents.

I´d like this discussion with people that actually cared for other than themselfes.

Where are you´re harts? How can you under any circumstances condone any misuse of children, even if it´s only a drawing. When did all of this imginary kiddyrape get legal? I sure as hell didn´t get the email, memo whatever. Oh shit people.

Have you ever read a book, watched a movie or TV show, or played a video game where a child was abused or even killed?

 

[delet]

Where the fuck do you live? For some reason, I doubt either of you live in Sweden or Japan. If you live in America, this doesn't affect you. If you live in America, you have the right to appeal this shit. Don't take a random case from a completely different country and start raging about social and unlawful injustice.

Wow, didn't expect that much aggression... But, sure, I agree with you. Why should anyone be concerned with anything that isn't going on in their own living room? Surely in this day and age events don't affect the world or anything...
Now, if any country is obsessed with pedophiles, it's America. It's not really unreasonable to believe that news of the Swedish ruling would reach America, and people would start lobbying for similar laws over here "to protect the children."
Sure, we can appeal things in America, but that's far from a guaranteed way to get out of something. The appeals process is lengthy, costly, and often takes place while the defendent is already serving their sentence.

"That much aggression" as in a single cuss word. Fancy definition you got there.

The point is, people are uncomfortable with and consider immoral that which is taboo. If you're truly surprised about it, then that says a lot about your intelligence.

Again, if you're being fined or convicted for this kind of thing, then by all means appeal it; it will be a rather easy case to win, especially if you're not caught with any actual pornographic material. Sure, it'll take up time and money, but that's your issue, not mine.

If what you're looking at is pornographic, then sucks to be you; you should've been more secretive about it. It's something that's simply not considered normal or morally right; you might as well complain to your cat.

 

[skeliton112]

It´s so clear many of you are not parents.

I´d like this discussion with people that actually cared for other than themselfes.

Where are you´re harts? How can you under any circumstances condone any misuse of children, even if it´s only a drawing. When did all of this imginary kiddyrape get legal? I sure as hell didn´t get the email, memo whatever. Oh shit people.

WHat if a minor argued for loli? Would you still say that it was wrong and they would understand if they where a parent?

 

[Leg End]

Massive snip with the power of a thousand suns.

You have obviously never played Fallout 1&2.
You even get a title for it. Although, it is a bad title so... yeah.

 

[Kortney]

Massive snip with the power of a thousand suns.

You have obviously never played Fallout 1&2.

Few points:

-Those games are around twenty years* old.

-There is barely any violence depicted. Due to the limited technology it's not really graphic at all. The article in question (and my posts) are dealing with graphic violence.

-Regardless, I'm glad we have moved past that in our video games.

edit: ten years.

 

[Leg End]

Massive snip with the power of a thousand suns.

You have obviously never played Fallout 1&2.

Few points:

-Those games are around twenty years old.

-There is barely any violence depicted. Due to the limited technology it's not really graphic at all. The article in question (and my posts) are dealing with graphic violence.

-Regardless, I'm glad we have moved past that in our video games.

- Not even close.

-This is considered graphic violence. Just because the tech is old doesn't mean it isn't "graphic".

-Regardless, it technically means we no longer have the kind of freedom we used to in games. Not that I'm saying that killing children is a good thing(it's not), it means that devs these days are wimps.

Plus, Fallout 3.

Spoiler: Spoilered due to possible offensiveness. I'm not even kidding, do not blame me if you click play.

Look for it on YouTube, I ain't getting banned because you want to see kids die.

 

[joshuaayt]

Not even remotely fair, I agree. It appears that they have forgotten why such laws were made- to protect real, breathing children. Who the hell cares about drawn child pornography?

Fuck, my Deviantart favourites folder does have some violent, even gory images- things would be illegal in real life, but you cannot arrest someone on possession of depictions of illegal acts.

If no one gets hurt, no one needs punishment. This is law enforcement for the sake of law enforcement.

And, yeah, I do hear the argument that such images might entice one to illegal action. This argument is amusing, especially as most of us seem to agree that videogames cannot be blamed for real world violence. Oh, sex is involved? Well, this clearly changes everything.

 

[Kortney]

Not even close.

Sorry, that was nothing more than a typo on my end. Freudian slip.

-This is considered graphic violence. Just because the tech is old doesn't mean it isn't "graphic".

Considered graphic? By who? Not even close by today's standards or the standards that animated child porn artists draw.

Even so, that point was an aside (hence the "regardless") in my next point. Whether it's graphic or not - it doesn't change the validity of my views. I believe that it is wrong to be able to kill children in video games.

-Regardless, it technically means we no longer have the kind of freedom we used to in games. Not that I'm saying that killing children is a good thing(it's not), it means that devs these days are wimps.

Wimps?

Yeah and sportsmen these days are wimps too. Have you seen them? They don't kill each other anymore!

Damn that stupid morality changing on us! We used to be able to own slaves! *shakes fist* *yells out window* CURSE YOU EVOLVING SOCIETAL VIEWS ON MORALITY!

I ain't getting banned because you want to see kids die.

Seriously? Why did you have to say that? When did I ever say suggest that I wanted to watch children die? Stop trying to bait an argument. You are doing nothing more than that with that sentence. Terrible form.

Judging from your earlier post in a thread where you supported the idea of men carrying around pillows of naked twelve year old girls drawn on them, having sex with them and completely ignoring reality, I don't think we are going to see eye to eye. Leave it.

 

[Leg End]

Not even close.

Sorry, that was nothing more than a typo on my end. Freudian slip.

-This is considered graphic violence. Just because the tech is old doesn't mean it isn't "graphic".

Considered graphic? By who? Not even close by today's standards or the standards that animated child porn artists draw.

Even so, that point was an aside (hence the "regardless") in my next point. Whether it's graphic or not - it doesn't change the validity of my views. I believe that it is wrong to be able to kill children in video games.

-Regardless, it technically means we no longer have the kind of freedom we used to in games. Not that I'm saying that killing children is a good thing(it's not), it means that devs these days are wimps.

Wimps?

Yeah and sportsmen these days are wimps too. Have you seen them? They don't kill each other anymore!

Damn that stupid morality changing on us! We used to be able to own slaves! *shakes fist* *yells out window* CURSE YOU EVOLVING SOCIETAL VIEWS ON MORALITY!

I ain't getting banned because you want to see kids die.

Seriously? Why did you have to say that? When did I ever say suggest that I wanted to watch children die? Stop trying to bait an argument. You are doing nothing more than that with that sentence. Terrible form.

Judging from your earlier post in a thread where you supported the idea of men carrying around pillows of naked twelve year old girls drawn on them, having sex with them and completely ignoring reality, I don't think we are going to see eye to eye. Leave it.

Slips happen.

By todays standards, but it was considered the cutting edge is graphics. It doesn't prevent it from still being Graphic.
I believe if it is an option, it is up to the person playing to choose to do it. Obviously, considering who/what I am, I don't.

Yes, wimps.
Damn people thinkin duels are barbaric.
seriousnow.jpg
The morality hasn't changed. It's that Interplay had the balls to put that in the game. Good for them for having the balls.

That sentenced was directed at anyone that clicked the spoiler, not just you. It's a small potshot at anyone that clicks. Kind of like a certain thumbnail image that tends to be posted on various chans that involves a certain Loli from Ichigo Mashimaro.

Hehe. HAHAHA. Just that thread? Hell, you'd better not look at the other bits of my post history then. You'd despise me, guaranteed.

I'll leave it. Not because you asked, but because my PS3 just finished it's download of the Dead Space 2 Demo and I need to open the door for someone because they are carrying a lot of things.

OT: I cannot go to Sweden, I'd be put to death.

Damn Feminazis.

 

[Kortney]

Hehe. HAHAHA. Just that thread? Hell, you'd better not look at the other bits of my post history then. You'd despise me, guaranteed.

I'd don't despise people who have different views to me.

 

[Vuljatar]

This is idiotic.

Possession of a drawing is possession of a drawing. It doesn't matter what it's a drawing of, it's a drawing.

Edit: The reason CP is illegal is because it cannot be created without a child being abused. The same is obviously not true of drawings.

 

[Leg End]

Hehe. HAHAHA. Just that thread? Hell, you'd better not look at the other bits of my post history then. You'd despise me, guaranteed.

I'd don't despise people who have different views to me.

Oh hoho. It's a little more complicated than that...

OT: I don't see why it is illegal. It harms no one and policing it borders on thoughcrime in a way.

 

[xdom125x]

It´s so clear many of you are not parents.

I´d like this discussion with people that actually cared for other than themselfes.

Where are you´re harts? How can you under any circumstances condone any misuse of children, even if it´s only a drawing. When did all of this imginary kiddyrape get legal? I sure as hell didn´t get the email, memo whatever. Oh shit people.

It's funny you should say that. My 4 year old brother and 3 year old sister are watching TV in the next room. And if someone tried to hurt them, I'd break every bone in their body. I actually had the same discussion with you that I did with my parents. My parents saw a lolicon image on my computer, and flat told me that if I ever thought about doing anything to a human, I should be arrested. And I agreed.

BUT IMAGES ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE, AND LOLICON DOES NOT MAKE YOU HURT CHILDREN. GET THIS THROUGH YOUR SKULL.

Oh my god, I was totally going to make this reply(minus the whole bit with getting caught with it on my computer because I am not interested in lolicon). Drawings aren't people.

 

[GotMalkAvian]

"That much aggression" as in a single cuss word. Fancy definition you got there.

Well, a single cuss word and a post basically claiming that I have no reason to be concerned about something unless the police are actively banging on my door. Also, I'm not entirely surprised that this particular issue is making its way through a court system somewhere, but I'm also not willing to settle for humanity being judgemental and our misguided attempts to fix problems.
Now, my biggest problem is with the way you're defining the issue here. You're saying that we should just expect for anything considered abnormal or taboo by society to be persecuted, and that the best solution is to keep it all under wraps. Please, share this opinion with gays, people who don't belong to the majority religion in their area, and especially gamers. We engage in a hobby that a large portion of society still considers abnormal. We play games where sadistically harming and killing human beings- sometimes innocent humans, by the way- is completely normal, and that's not even touching games that deal with issues like slavery, prostitution, black magic, drug abuse, and a whole bunch of other topics that are considered "taboo."
What happens when American politicians- some of whom are currently working on legislation for government regulation of M-rated video games- take a case like the one in Sweden and start waving it around as a precedent to claim that fictional representations of things are equal to the real thing? Suddenly, it's my problem.
My main point is that it's easy to look at the small picture here; someone in Sweden is being fined because the courts believe that manga depicting children in sexual situations counts as child pornography. However, and I'll gladly repeat myself, this issue has the potential to blow up quickly and spread into areas that do affect all of us.

 

[MassiveGeek]

Yes I agree, this is just like those things you mentioned a process that will take a while to resolve. If it won't be accepted, perhaps it will at the very least be understood and left alone.
And for the cases where the people who embrace lolicon actually have issues not acting on actual attraction to children, they shouldn't be pushed away and pushed down by society, but helped.

I agree with the helped part. Those who realize they have a real problem and might actually be a danger to children need (because they are a real danger to someone, as opposed to the nebulous and "potential" danger ascribed to pictures) and deserve help.

As opposed to those who actually HAVE acted on their impulses.
Those people might also need help, but I would prefer if they get help AFTER a thorough punishment. Preferably involving large, blunt instruments.
And there goes my ability to seperate emotions from actual judgement, which is why I should not and will not ever be a judge ^^

I thought of another thing last night that made me realise how unfair this is...

Lolicon in this case is classed as CP right? And why is it classed to be it? Because it's depictions of minors in sexual situations. So why is this a bad thing? Well, because the minors in the CP are harmed and exploited, they'll carry wounds for life and all that horrible stuff.
But wait, lolicon doesn't actually do anything like that. No children are harmed in the process of making the images or the videos. So why is lolicon bad? The argument just goes in circles, "lolicon is bad, because there are children in it, therefore it's bad". It doesn't hold up, because it doesn't have those factors that make actual CP so fucking terrible.

I honestly think that no one is making an adequate case here against or for the existence of lolicon. And I think that before they ruin a guys life by taking his job away based on only biased feelings, which is not fair or justice, they should think through their own stance in this matter. Because right now I see no good reason why this is so horrible.